Forgiveness

[Book of Jeremiah]

There are one of two things that happen out of trials such as these, BD. This is even more pronounced in long term trials. A. You become softer, gentler, more loving and sincere with folks. OR B. You become harder, rougher, play games and earn a reputation of insincerity with folks.

You are definitely A.

The benefit of A. When you crush rose petals they give a beautiful fragrance. They bless those around them.

The benefit of B. You cannot crush a rock. There are no benefits to B.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Well, damn YOU for making me cry!

/she said politely

*hugs*

Thank you, Jeri. I hope you know what a blessing you are to me.



And I was so proud no tears were shed in the making of this thread. HA! Lesson learned on the "before a fall" front.

You're precious, BD. I hope you know what a blessing you are to people around you. You are a very unique woman. We are blessed to have you here at USMB.

 

[BDBoop]

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion you ignore me when I'm at my worst?

 

[Lumpy 1]

Now I feel like crying..

 

[BDBoop]

Now I feel like crying..

Darn onions.

 

[CMike]

Jeremiah is awesome, aside from being a bullfrog

You can't make your father believe what you say. You told him. There isn't much else you can do. Whether he believes you or not is not that much in your control.

Jeremiah was right concerning me. In judaism there is no obligation to forgive anyone who doesn't want to be forgiven.

Let's say you abused me. Unless you sincerely want and ask for forgiveness, I have no obligation to absue you. Yes, I need to manage my feelings. However, you can manage feelings without forgiving someone.

In judaism there are two different types of sins.

There are sins against G-D and there are sins against your fellow man.

Sins against G-D you can ask for forgiveness right away from G-D.

Sins against your fellow man you have to first seek forgiveness from the person you sinned against before approaching G-D about it.

I always found it a bit arrogant that christianity seems to concentrate on forgiving rather than apologizing.

There is someone I know who is a prespeterian minister. She called me about some preceived sin I committed against her, and she magnamoisly proclaimed that she has forgiven me.

Well...guess what?

1) I ddin't committ this act

2) I really don't find what she did commendable and I didn't want her forgiveness. I would rather she apologize for injusticies that she did to me which there were several.

It's a lot easier to say I forgive you, where you are admitting someone else was wrong, than I apologize, where you are admitting that you were wrong.

 

[syrenn]

so which is worse.....to forgive...and continue to endure the behavior or to simply move on...with my own family....or rather my mother's siblings...i have opted to move on...i have no contact with any of them ..i have attempted to get along with them but their continued lies to my mother have caused me to just give up on them and that 'family' situation with them...why bother....at every avenue when given the choice of being toxic or decent they have opted for toxic....

the dr phil cliche is so true...the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.....

i agree.... move on.

 

[syrenn]

back to the op....forgiveness is so over rated...i hear that you should forgive and forget ...well maybe its divine cause it is so hard to forget...and at this stage of the game i have had many seek forgiveness only to revert to the forgiven behavior....i dont tolerate that anymore.....i just go back to fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me.....to me forgiveness is more than asking and granting.....you must put actions behind your words....


arent christians told to confess their sins to be forgiven? am i wrong about that?
if i had a nickel for every time my in laws have ask to be forgiven but dont change the behavior....i would be a rich woman

Right. If there is no understanding, contrition or empathy - it's just going to happen again. If one cannot put themselves in the shoes of the one they wronged, then there would likely be nothing preventing that person from continuing with the same hateful, damaging behaviors.

You are right about confessing, but as far as I know, that is to God. I know the twelve step programs expect amends to be made, but I'm not sure about Bible verses backing that concept.

I prefer apologizing to those I've hurt or wronged, because it gets the burden out of my heart.

Here is a problem i have with "the apologizing or confessing person" I am not saying this as you... but in general to the mentality of this kind of person.


This type of person is just flat out mean, nasty, vicious.... does their shit to others and then feels as if apologizing or confessing their wrongs makes it all better...... and then they do i all again.

think habitual wife beater and the wife who believes the most sincere apology of they will NEVER do it again.....

 

[BDBoop]

Jeremiah is awesome, aside from being a bullfrog

You can't make your father believe what you say. You told him. There isn't much else you can do. Whether he believes you or not is not that much in your control.

Jeremiah was right concerning me. In judaism there is no obligation to forgive anyone who doesn't want to be forgiven.

Let's say you abused me. Unless you sincerely want and ask for forgiveness, I have no obligation to absue you. Yes, I need to manage my feelings. However, you can manage feelings without forgiving someone.

In judaism there are two different types of sins.

There are sins against G-D and there are sins against your fellow man.

Sins against G-D you can ask for forgiveness right away from G-D.

Sins against your fellow man you have to first seek forgiveness from the person you sinned against before approaching G-D about it.

I always found it a bit arrogant that christianity seems to concentrate on forgiving rather than apologizing.

There is someone I know who is a prespeterian minister. She called me about some preceived sin I committed against her, and she magnamoisly proclaimed that she has forgiven me.

Well...guess what?

1) I ddin't committ this act

2) I really don't find what she did commendable and I didn't want her forgiveness. I would rather she apologize for injusticies that she did to me which there were several.

It's a lot easier to say I forgive you, where you are admitting someone else was wrong, than I apologize, where you are admitting that you were wrong.

Very well said, sir.

I, too have been forgiven (Much to my Dismay, and Against my Will.) I've also had someone pronounce that l would have to jump through hoops to win their favor again. Rather presumptuous, I felt.

It's kind of funny, how differently two people can perceive the same situation.

 

[syrenn]

No. He does not believe she did the right thing, and he believes this is my fault. He believes the biggest heartbreak of his life, losing his only son, was my doing.

you dont need to forgive him.... you need to laugh at his self centered the world is all about HIM and his dick HAS to have a son to live ass.....

that is HIS bullshit... not yours. He is not blaming you for losing a son...

he is blaming you for not being able to produce a son, that you are a GIRL and not the boy he wanted... So you best start looking at the problem for what it really is.

fuck
that
shit
to
hell
and
back.

 

[syrenn]

and you really need to say what you have to say to me in public...your pms are just continual denials of the truth and continued bs....say what you have to say to me in public...simple as that.....or would that mean exposing yourself for the liar you are?

No, you're copping out and running away like a coward, when directly confronted on this issue. You barked up the wrong tree. I don't take too kindly to having my name or my character slandered by the likes of you. After I made a concerted effort to rectify the situation, you ran away.

This discussion...no, this circus, is over; regardless how many times you choose to call me a liar. You by your own actions have disproven your argument and your attempted assassination of my character has failed.

Back on ignore you go.

(P.S. May I remind you also, that sharing the contents of any of my private messages to you is against site wide rules.)

you two need to get a thread of your own.....

 

[BDBoop]

back to the op....forgiveness is so over rated...i hear that you should forgive and forget ...well maybe its divine cause it is so hard to forget...and at this stage of the game i have had many seek forgiveness only to revert to the forgiven behavior....i dont tolerate that anymore.....i just go back to fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on me.....to me forgiveness is more than asking and granting.....you must put actions behind your words....


arent christians told to confess their sins to be forgiven? am i wrong about that?
if i had a nickel for every time my in laws have ask to be forgiven but dont change the behavior....i would be a rich woman

Right. If there is no understanding, contrition or empathy - it's just going to happen again. If one cannot put themselves in the shoes of the one they wronged, then there would likely be nothing preventing that person from continuing with the same hateful, damaging behaviors.

You are right about confessing, but as far as I know, that is to God. I know the twelve step programs expect amends to be made, but I'm not sure about Bible verses backing that concept.

I prefer apologizing to those I've hurt or wronged, because it gets the burden out of my heart.

Here is a problem i have with "the apologizing or confessing person" I am not saying this as you... but in general to the mentality of this kind of person.


This type of person is just flat out mean, nasty, vicious.... does their shit to others and then feels as if apologizing or confessing their wrongs makes it all better...... and then they do i all again.

think habitual wife beater and the wife who believes the most sincere apology of they will NEVER do it again.....

I recognize that, which is why I alluded to empathy and contrition. In my family of origin, the blame-n-shame game was a regular event whereby the victim was victimized again through being made aware that the perpetrator was not responsible for their actions. These things would not have happened - but the victim just made them so angry.

That's why as an adult, my motto became "own your own."

 

[syrenn]

Right. If there is no understanding, contrition or empathy - it's just going to happen again. If one cannot put themselves in the shoes of the one they wronged, then there would likely be nothing preventing that person from continuing with the same hateful, damaging behaviors.

You are right about confessing, but as far as I know, that is to God. I know the twelve step programs expect amends to be made, but I'm not sure about Bible verses backing that concept.

I prefer apologizing to those I've hurt or wronged, because it gets the burden out of my heart.

Here is a problem i have with "the apologizing or confessing person" I am not saying this as you... but in general to the mentality of this kind of person.


This type of person is just flat out mean, nasty, vicious.... does their shit to others and then feels as if apologizing or confessing their wrongs makes it all better...... and then they do i all again.

think habitual wife beater and the wife who believes the most sincere apology of they will NEVER do it again.....

I recognize that, which is why I alluded to empathy and contrition. In my family of origin, the blame-n-shame game was a regular event whereby the victim was victimized again through being made aware that the perpetrator was not responsible for their actions. These things would not have happened - but the victim just made them so angry.

That's why as an adult, my motto became "own your own."

and what of the "own your own" people who own that they just go out and bludgeon the world.... its just me... there i owned my own.... im sorry...and do it all again and again and again?

 

[BDBoop]

Here is a problem i have with "the apologizing or confessing person" I am not saying this as you... but in general to the mentality of this kind of person.


This type of person is just flat out mean, nasty, vicious.... does their shit to others and then feels as if apologizing or confessing their wrongs makes it all better...... and then they do i all again.

think habitual wife beater and the wife who believes the most sincere apology of they will NEVER do it again.....

I recognize that, which is why I alluded to empathy and contrition. In my family of origin, the blame-n-shame game was a regular event whereby the victim was victimized again through being made aware that the perpetrator was not responsible for their actions. These things would not have happened - but the victim just made them so angry.

That's why as an adult, my motto became "own your own."

and what of the "own your own" people who own that they just go out and bludgeon the world.... its just me... there i owned my own.... im sorry...and do it all again and again and again?

That I do not know. The ones in my immediate family wound up driving me away because not only were they incredibly toxic (dangerously so) but when they were in the 'sane' place, they would gain trust, followed by information, which would then be used against me the next time they came undone.

Ah, a trip down memory lane.

 

[BDBoop]

My pastor once told me I needed to forgive my mother. I said “Here's an interesting concept for you. What if after every service, when it was time to shake your hand, I smiled and slapped you upside the head. A few months later, I only slapped you every other week. And then maybe once a month. And then I stopped for a time. Two weeks later I shook your hand and then I slapped your wife."

"This is what it is like to be raised by an insane woman. You never know when she's going to go off, or who she's going to go off on. As long as she's alive, I won't know when she's going to slap me upside the head. So if you don't mind, I will not be forgiving her any time soon."

He didn't answer. I would like to think I got through to him, but who knows.

 

[BreezeWood]

How do you forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven because they don't believe they did anything wrong.

This is something he's dredging up from the distant past for whatever reason, and I could almost live with it if I'd actually committed this 'sin' to begin with.

Never mind the fact that they actually were incredibly abusive parents, and I will never believe she made the wrong decision in taking her son away from them.

it would be interesting to know if there is a problem whether your sister and her son developed a close relationship, and not judgmental but did the son wish to leave for his mother ?

are you close with your sister now ?

it seems your sister and you should be a strength together ... knowing better together against an ill-will by your father.


"... they don't believe they did anything wrong".

that is puzzling, and I would be in agreement but were your parents in some way held responsible in why the child was taken from them ?

.

 

[BDBoop]

How do you forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven because they don't believe they did anything wrong.

Never mind the fact that they actually were incredibly abusive parents, and I will never believe she made the wrong decision in taking her son away from them.

it would be interesting to know if there is a problem whether your sister and her son developed a close relationship, and not judgmental but did the son wish to leave for his mother ?

are you close with your sister now ?

it seems your sister and you should be a strength together ... knowing better together against an ill-will by your father.


"... they don't believe they did anything wrong".

that is puzzling, and I would be in agreement but were your parents in some way held responsible in why the child was taken from them ?

.

They had him for 2.5 years, he's in his mid-thirties now. They've always been very close, as are my sister and I.

 

[CMike]

My pastor once told me I needed to forgive my mother. I said “Here's an interesting concept for you. What if after every service, when it was time to shake your hand, I smiled and slapped you upside the head. A few months later, I only slapped you every other week. And then maybe once a month. And then I stopped for a time. Two weeks later I shook your hand and then I slapped your wife."

"This is what it is like to be raised by an insane woman. You never know when she's going to go off, or who she's going to go off on. As long as she's alive, I won't know when she's going to slap me upside the head. So if you don't mind, I will not be forgiving her any time soon."

He didn't answer. I would like to think I got through to him, but who knows.

Maybe you should have slapped the pastor.

 

[CMike]

No. He does not believe she did the right thing, and he believes this is my fault. He believes the biggest heartbreak of his life, losing his only son, was my doing.

you dont need to forgive him.... you need to laugh at his self centered the world is all about HIM and his dick HAS to have a son to live ass.....

that is HIS bullshit... not yours. He is not blaming you for losing a son...

he is blaming you for not being able to produce a son, that you are a GIRL and not the boy he wanted... So you best start looking at the problem for what it really is.

fuck
that
shit
to
hell
and
back.

That's a lot of fucking...

 

[BDBoop]

My pastor once told me I needed to forgive my mother. I said “Here's an interesting concept for you. What if after every service, when it was time to shake your hand, I smiled and slapped you upside the head. A few months later, I only slapped you every other week. And then maybe once a month. And then I stopped for a time. Two weeks later I shook your hand and then I slapped your wife."

"This is what it is like to be raised by an insane woman. You never know when she's going to go off, or who she's going to go off on. As long as she's alive, I won't know when she's going to slap me upside the head. So if you don't mind, I will not be forgiving her any time soon."

He didn't answer. I would like to think I got through to him, but who knows.

Maybe you should have slapped the pastor.

It wouldn't have done any good.

And I didn't want to stoop to her level, even though she wasn't there.