Gay Teacher fired

[JoeB131]

The Church did not fire the man for being gay. That would be discrimination. The man was fired for his behavior.

You mean being in a relationship with a committed partner?

How dare he!!!

 

[Vox]

Imagine for a moment if Catholic institutions fired gay priests at all levels? The church would lose thirty percent of their men and women. I know several people at Holy Ghost and this hopefully will be fixed. Parents will need to speak out, every family has gays.

I am not sure Catholics have a problem with gays, just gay sex.

Yes, because sexually repressed gays are really much better.

Seriously, some Indigo Girls Albums, some scented candles, she'd have been a much less nasty person.

Except she is extremely NICE person.

and a brave one.

But I know perfectly well why you and your flock hate her

 

[Katzndogz]

The Church did not fire the man for being gay. That would be discrimination. The man was fired for his behavior.

You mean being in a relationship with a committed partner?

How dare he!!!

Yes. A same sex partner. He had to have known the rules and knowingly violated them.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I have endlessly read that churches have an exemption for religion. I never have read that that they have an exemption from the entire civil rights bill or other federal regulations.

So seriously, you consider it persuasive that your parsing the words of the decision and extrapolating them to religion makes up for the fact that in the entire Internet you can't find clear documentation that churches can't only hire people who in their view adhere to their own religion?

What I am pointing out is completely consistent with the first amendment, which says congress cannot pass laws restricting freedom of religion. And that is the basis of why government has stayed out of church religions hiring. The first amendment on the other hand does not cover the ada, skin color or other factors, so you not only are word parsing and extrapolating a decision on an entirely different case, your extrapolation isn't consistent with the basis for allowing churches to hire and fire people based on religion, as is protected in the first amendment.

No, what I'm pointing out is that you said the case was an "ADA" (American with Disabiliities Act) case which is not true. The case before the court, and the issue addressed as noted by the court in both the core question defined and the ruling it made was whether "ministerial" staff were subject to secular employment laws, the court ruled on that very narrow question that (to paraphrase) "No, they are not".

That case DOES NOT say that non-minsterial staff are not subject to general employment law which is what the original poster who brought up the case tired to claim it said.

The Hossanna-Tabor case decision was issued in January 2012, yet just this summer a court found for the claimant in a similar "morals clause" case for wrongful termination.

Personally I don't know if Churches hold the same type of exemption for employment law purposes. They may or may not at the federal level, I can't call or find a case that defines it. They may or may not at the State level because that can very from state-to-state.


Jury finds for Catholic school teacher fired after artificial insemination pregnancy - CBS News


>>>>

except the teacher is a ministerial staff and that is what the case was about - the Hosanna Tabor case was about firing a TEACHER.
And the TEACHER was ruled to be MINISTERIAL staff.

and this situation is IDENTICAL.
Opinions on the case did not change the SCOTUS ruling and that is that is important - and they ruled that the Lutheran Church has the right to fire the TEACHER despite ADA( which I would assume is much stronger case, than a clear violation of moral principals of the Church you work for).

No they didn't, again here is the direct quote of the ruling from the SCOTUS (since we're using emphasis I'll make sure you can see it), notice the operative word is "minister" not "teacher":

The interest of society in the enforcement of employ-
ment discrimination statutes is undoubtedly important.
But so too is the interest of religious groups in choosing
who will preach their beliefs, teach their faith, and carry
out their mission. When a minister
who has been fired sues her church alleging that her termination was dis-
riminatory, the First Amendment has struck the balance
for us. The church must be free to choose those who will
guide it on its way.

The judgment of the Court of Appeals for the Sixth
Circuit is reversed.

It is so ordered​

Therefore the cases are not "identical", in the case before the SCOTUS the individual was functioning as ministerial staff, in the case of the OP the teacher functions only as lay staff.


>>>>

 

[Vox]

Roberts said the ruling was confined the facts of the case

Try firing someone solely for their religious beliefs...or not hiring them because of them.

you are mixing apples and oranges. I am not hiring anybody and firing anybody based on their beliefs, but II am not a church as well.

However, I don't think there is any point in discussion, since you clearly see what you want to ( your comments on Pope Francis and what he will change in the Church doctrine is the best example. because,just FYI he can not change a word )), so let's just leave it there and wait and see what will happen.

How is it mixing apples and oranges? Are you not following the thread or something? I said that religion is Federally protected from workplace discrimination, that I can't fire someone for being Christian but they can fire me for being gay. You decided to bring up a true canard with the SCOTUS narcolepsy case which was unrelated and confined to the facts of that case only.

Frankie is changing attitude which is much more effective than doctrine.

the teacher was not fired for being gay but for openly admitting and propagating the fact he is living the gay lifestyle - which is in direct confrontation with the teaching of the Church.
And his firing is protected by 1st Amendment and was supported by the SCOTUS decision on the Lutheran church.
The person they fired was a teacher as well and she was ruled to be MINISTERIAL STAFF - therefore a subject of exclusion from the secular laws.
Same is here.
Case closed.

and Pope is not changing ANYTHING - all he has done was a necessity to clarify the next days ( always) his off-the cuff unfortunate interviews
He ALWAYS had to explain later that he was misinterpreted.

Better not to talk off the cuff

 

[Vox]

He wasn't politically active, he filed for a fucking marriage license. Only in crazy world is that political.

Once again you demonstrate what it's like posting with you. You chastise me for a point I agreed with you on. Yo do it all the time. It's the affect of having a chip on your shoulder. It's why you have a hard time engaging me and probably a lot of other people. You're a sanctimonious gay extremist, and it kills your ability to convince anyone of anything. Though you do a great job with people who already agree with you...

Do you have any proof that the exemption only applies to management and they can't put it in employment contracts? I haven't seen that.

Yes, it was a SCOTUS case already cited.

Justices Rule Ministers Exempt From Anti-Bias Laws

Ministers are exempt, not anyone else. Churches cannot fire their secretary because she's Muslim, black, a woman, from Iceland, in a wheelchair, etc. They CAN fire her if she's gay.

Except the teacher in the case was ruled to be MINISTERIAL staff.
same as here.

Case closed.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Except she is extremely NICE person.

and a brave one.

But I know perfectly well why you and your flock hate her

I know Catholics goo all over MOther Angelical or whatever her name is, but frankly, she's about as batshit crazy as the nuns I grew up with.

Seriously, the best thing about the gay rights movement is that hundreds of thousands of Lesbians were spared from becoming nuns, and millions of kids were spared having to deal with them.

 

[Noomi]

He was celibate for a reason. I believe he was gay, too.

Come on Noomi.....you are a better person than to make such a low class statement. ....

The Church says that if you are gay, it is best to remain celibate. It is possible that Jesus was gay, but hid his sexuality by remaining celibate, as was requested by God.

 

[Vox]

[...

are you a BONE HEAD?

A TEACHER WAS RULED TO BE MINISTERIAL STAFF BY THE TABOR CASE.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CASE.

Same is HERE.

Case closed.

 

[JoeB131]

He was celibate for a reason. I believe he was gay, too.

Come on Noomi.....you are a better person than to make such a low class statement. ....

The Church says that if you are gay, it is best to remain celibate. It is possible that Jesus was gay, but hid his sexuality by remaining celibate, as was requested by God.

Or that Jesus plain old didn't exist....

 

[Vox]

[

Except she is extremely NICE person.

and a brave one.

But I know perfectly well why you and your flock hate her

I know Catholics goo all over MOther Angelical or whatever her name is, but frankly, she's about as batshit crazy as the nuns I grew up with.

Seriously, the best thing about the gay rights movement is that hundreds of thousands of Lesbians were spared from becoming nuns, and millions of kids were spared having to deal with them.

it is YOU who are batshit crazy, therefore you think everybody around is. wrong. It is YOU. Not anybody else.

That is a classic symptom

 

[Vox]

CASE CLOSED. They had the right to fire him:

Today the Supreme Court decided its most important religious liberty case in twenty years, Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The government lost 9-nothing as the Court unanimously rejected its narrow view of religious liberty as “extreme,” “untenable” and “remarkable.”

The case stemmed from the firing of Cheryl Perich, a Michigan teacher who had been employed by a school run by the Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf

REPEATING FOR THE BONE HEADS:


The decision was a defeat for Cheryl Perich, a teacher at a Lutheran school in Michigan who threatened to sue under the disability act because she had not been invited to return to teaching after being diagnosed with narcolepsy The Obama administration argued that Perich wasn't subject to a so-called ministerial exception from civil rights laws because she taught mostly secular subjects. But Roberts pointed out that she was, in Lutheran parlance, a "called teacher" and "commissioned minister" who had to undergo special theological training and be accepted by the congregation..

 

[WorldWatcher]

Once again you demonstrate what it's like posting with you. You chastise me for a point I agreed with you on. Yo do it all the time. It's the affect of having a chip on your shoulder. It's why you have a hard time engaging me and probably a lot of other people. You're a sanctimonious gay extremist, and it kills your ability to convince anyone of anything. Though you do a great job with people who already agree with you...

Do you have any proof that the exemption only applies to management and they can't put it in employment contracts? I haven't seen that.

Yes, it was a SCOTUS case already cited.

Justices Rule Ministers Exempt From Anti-Bias Laws

Ministers are exempt, not anyone else. Churches cannot fire their secretary because she's Muslim, black, a woman, from Iceland, in a wheelchair, etc. They CAN fire her if she's gay.

Except the teacher in the case was ruled to be MINISTERIAL staff.
same as here.

Case closed.

From the SCOTUS Hossanna case:

The Synod classifies teachers into two categories:
“called” and “lay.” “Called” teachers are regarded as
having been called to their vocation by God through a
congregation. To be eligible to receive a call from a con-
gregation, a teacher must satisfy certain academic
requirements. One way of doing so is by completing a
“colloquy” program at a Lutheran college or university. The
program requires candidates to take eight courses of
theological study, obtain the endorsement of their local
Synod district, and pass an oral examination by a faculty
committee. A teacher who meets these requirements may
be called by a congregation. Once called, a teacher re-
ceives the formal title “Minister of Religion, Commis-
sioned.” App. 42, 48. A commissioned minister serves for
an open-ended term; at Hosanna-Tabor, a call could be
rescinded only for cause and bya supermajority vote of the
congregation.

“Lay” or “contract” teachers, by contrast, are not re-
quired to be trained by the Synod or even to be Lutheran.
At Hosanna-Tabor, they were appointed by the school
board, without a vote of the congregation, to one-year
renewable terms. Although teachers at the school general-
ly performed the same duties regardless of whether they
were lay or called, lay teachers were hired only when
called teachers were unavailable.​

The individual in the OP was not a ministerial teacher under the terms as described by the SCOTUS case.



>>>>

 

[Vox]

CASE CLOSED. They had the right to fire him:

Today the Supreme Court decided its most important religious liberty case in twenty years, Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The government lost 9-nothing as the Court unanimously rejected its narrow view of religious liberty as “extreme,” “untenable” and “remarkable.”

The case stemmed from the firing of Cheryl Perich, a Michigan teacher who had been employed by a school run by the Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-553.pdf

The decision was a defeat for Cheryl Perich, a teacher at a Lutheran school in Michigan who threatened to sue under the disability act because she had not been invited to return to teaching after being diagnosed with narcolepsy. The Obama administration argued that Perich wasn't subject to a so-called ministerial exception from civil rights laws because she taught mostly secular subjects. But Roberts pointed out that she was, in Lutheran parlance, a "called teacher" and "commissioned minister" who had to undergo special theological training and be accepted by the congregation.[/B

 

[Vox]

The individual in the OP was not a ministerial teacher under the terms as described by the SCOTUS case.

Yes, HE IS.

EVERY teacher in Catholic School is a ministerial one.
Everyone.

 

[WorldWatcher]

[...

are you a BONE HEAD?

A TEACHER WAS RULED TO BE MINISTERIAL STAFF BY THE TABOR CASE.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CASE.

Same is HERE.

Case closed.

Correct, in that case the teacher was ministerial staff.


In the case of the OP the teacher was not ministerial staff, he was a lay teacher.



>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

The individual in the OP was not a ministerial teacher under the terms as described by the SCOTUS case.

Yes, HE IS.

EVERY teacher in Catholic School is a ministerial one.
Everyone.

N

Nope.

The Hosanna decision came down in in January 2011, if what you say is true, that SCOTUS ruled that EVERY teacher in a Catholic School (which they didn't as the Hosanna case wasn't about Catholic Schools), then the Judge would have had to dismiss this case and never had a trial.

Didn't happen, the case went through the the decision was against the school and for the plantiff.

"A federal jury found that the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Cincinnati discriminated against Christa Dias by firing her in October 2010.

<<SNIP>>

The archdiocese had argued prior to trial that Dias was a ministerial employee and that the Supreme Court has said religious groups can dismiss those employees without government interference. But Klingler insisted Dias had no such duties, and the court found that she was not a ministerial employee."
Published June 2013
Jury sides with Ohio teacher who was fired after getting pregnant via artificial insemination | Fox News​

The individual in the OP was not a ministerial teacher under the terms as described by the SCOTUS case.

Yes, HE IS.

EVERY teacher in Catholic School is a ministerial one.
Everyone.

Maybe in your opinion, but as shown in the case above, that isn't the opinion of the courts at this time.


>>>>

 

[Vox]

[...

are you a BONE HEAD?

A TEACHER WAS RULED TO BE MINISTERIAL STAFF BY THE TABOR CASE.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CASE.

Same is HERE.

Case closed.

Correct, in that case the teacher was ministerial staff.


In the case of the OP the teacher was not ministerial staff, he was a lay teacher.



>>>>

Nope, he was. he even signed a specific contract with delineated terms.
You think schools did not learn from Diaz case?
and, btw, that case is being appealed as well - it is VERY far from being closed.

 

[WorldWatcher]

are you a BONE HEAD?

A TEACHER WAS RULED TO BE MINISTERIAL STAFF BY THE TABOR CASE.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CASE.

Same is HERE.

Case closed.

Correct, in that case the teacher was ministerial staff.


In the case of the OP the teacher was not ministerial staff, he was a lay teacher.



>>>>

Nope, he was. he even signed a specific contract with delineated terms.
You think schools did not learn from Diaz case?
and, btw, that case is being appealed as well - it is VERY far from being closed.

Well good, at least you recognize that it's not "case closed" and is something still to be settled by the SCOTUS. Good show.

The fact is that the ministerial exception was applied to those that actually received a special ministerial designation, led students in prayer, and provided religious instruction. Unlike the teacher in the OP and Dias who had no religious instruction duties.

*************************************

BTW - don't expect the Dias case to be the one that goes to the SCOTUS. The Cincinnati Archdiocese isn't appealing the courts ruling and decided to settle the case(s).

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...e-settles-with-teachers-over-pregnancies.html

>>>>

 

[JoeB131]

[

Except she is extremely NICE person.

and a brave one.

But I know perfectly well why you and your flock hate her

I know Catholics goo all over MOther Angelical or whatever her name is, but frankly, she's about as batshit crazy as the nuns I grew up with.

Seriously, the best thing about the gay rights movement is that hundreds of thousands of Lesbians were spared from becoming nuns, and millions of kids were spared having to deal with them.

it is YOU who are batshit crazy, therefore you think everybody around is. wrong. It is YOU. Not anybody else.

That is a classic symptom

I'm not the one who screamed at small children until they peed themselves.

That was the wonderful nuns I grew up with.

They were also terribly concerned about what movies we were watching.

Seriously, fuck religious idiots. They are only good for mocking.