George Zimmerman's bloody head

[Ariux]

George Zimmerman is not a fat and out of shape man. He's pretty fit.

Hey racist shithead, police booked Zimmerman as 5'7" 200 pounds. That makes Zimmerman obese, not just overweight. Compare to Travyon, who was significantly taller and at his prime weight (BMI 22, according to the autopsy).

He was yelling at the time he shot. Of course, the fact that he was able to shoot contradicts with the very notion that he was on the verge of blacking out. You're a moron.

Anyone having their head pounded against the ground is on the verge of blacking out.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If Martin is on top of Zimmerman, cracking Z's noggin into the concrete, placing Z in reasonable fear of imminent great bodily harm, Z is entitled to defend himself. Period.

Sorry, it's not "Period".

Under Florida Law, the event's leading up to that point are a factor to be considered.



I agree, to a degree. No "smoking gun" evidence has been released. However some of the evidence that has been released can be used by the state to undermine Zimmerman's story. For example, the 7-11 video shows no signs of "suspicious" or "drug induced behavior". The bullet path isn't consistent with Zimmerman shoting "up" into Martin. And lack of GSR could be indicative of a greater distance between the two based on an extended arm discharge of the firearm. Then of course we haven't seen the "clubhouse video" listed on the evidence list. If from security cameras and it shows no suspicious activity by Martin, then the very basis of Zimmerman's initial call and his description of events becomes suspect (and on the other hand if it does show suspicious behavior, it adds credibility to Zimmerman's story).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Not the way I read it.

The opening paragraph clearly indicates that the provisions of 776.041 allow for loss of self defense immunity (the preceding paragraphs in the law).

Paragraph "(1)" says the immunity is permanently lost if the individual was in the act of a forcible felony. Aggravated Assault under Florida Law is a forcible felony and would result either by : (a) simple assault coupled with attempted unlawful detention, OR (b) assault coupled with the use of a weapon. Assault need not be physical violence, assault can be conveyed through word or intent, which is different than battery which requires a physical action.

Paragraph "(2)" notes that if the initial aggressor had an opportunity to retreat once hostilities are started and fails to do so, then they also lose self defense immunity. This is were the state could attempt to use the forensic lack of GSR on Zimmerman's jacket and/or shirt to indicate that a straight arm extension was present at the time of firing the weapon which would indicate a greater distance between the two. If Zimmerman had pushed Martin off, then pulled his gun and fired - he would have not have taken advantage of an avenue to disengage.

Paragraph "(1)" and "(2)" are joined by an "or", which means loss of the self defense immunities present in the preceding paragraphs can be lost under either paragraph.


Again though, those are scenario's which don't apply **IF** the defense were to show Martin was the initial aggressor.


>>>>

I am opposed to a wall of words. So I limit my reply to JUST the final section of your post, which I have highlighted in bold and some hideous green color.

Taken sequentially:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; . . . .

Section 1 by its own terms does not apply at all since nobody has said that Zimmerman had committed was committing or escaping after the commission of any felony. Accordingly, if he had any right to the justification defense, section one does not remove it.

I haven’t said that anyone else has said it.

The first indication of this track may be at the self defense hearing. Or it may not. We’ll have to wait and see.

***********************************************

Next:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
* * * *
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; * * * *

As to 2(a), that's the whole point. That's the nub of it. If it can even be shown by the government (a giant "if," at that) Zimmerman "provoked" the use of force against him, the justification defense would not be available to him UNLESS the force being used against him was so great that he reasonably believed that he was confronted with the imminent danger of death OR great bodily harm.

Agreed, including the point that the none of the evidence at this point supports EITHER Zimmerman or Martin as the initial aggressor and yet many on these boards have expressed as an absolute certainty one way or the other.

A very few of us understand that the hostilities were initiate by one or the other PRIOR to the first witness viewing the scene. Many want to base the determination of “self defense” solely on what happened later, but “the nub of it” as you correctly say is what the precipitating events were. If Martin initiated hostilities, then Zimmerman’s self defense immunity remains intact during the entire time cycle of the event. However **IF** Zimmerman acted as the aggressor, then it is possible for him to lose such immunity.

I exclude 2(b) since there is no evidence known to us at this point that Zimmerman "withdrew" (anymore than there's any actual proof that he was ever the initial aggressor, anyway).

On this point we need to wait and see, we have seen the raw data from the forensic reports. What was not included was the expert evaluation of what that raw data means.

Physical evidence that may indicate Zimmerman and Martin had a achieved a degree of separation may (speculation) be indicated by (a) the angle of the bullet path through Martin’s body as a straight chest shot is unnatural when two bodies are close together and the gun must be inserted between them and then angled to achieve a shot , and (b) the negative GSR on Zimmerman’s cloths which also would indicate that he wasn’t underneath Martin when the shot was fired. Lack of GSR would indicate that Zimmerman’s arm was extended away from him instead of inches above his own chest (because Martin was on top).

2(a) seems to say that EVEN IF you are the initial aggressor, then if the force then used against you is so out of bounds as to put YOU in reasonable fear for your life or of facing imminent great bodily harm, you may STILL resort to the use of the justification defense.

I agree.

That you read the statute differently than that is simply not in keeping with what the law itself actually says.

Seems as if I haven’t read the statute differently then that, we however may be applying it differently.

Statutory construction is not as complicated as some people seem to believe -- even though the gibberish passed by legislatures often is needlessly convoluted.

That’s the truth.

By the way, in that regard, your analysis of the statute is incorrect. Since sections 1 and 2 were written in the disjunctive [i.e., the use of the "or"], the commission of a felony (section 1) does NOT permanently deprive a person of the justification defense (as you suggest it does) under the conditions described in the statute following the "unless."

Paragraph (1) does remove self defense immunity; however it can regained under specific actions outlined in 2(a) and 2(b). 2(a) requires that the aggressor must have availed themselves of escape if possible and 2(b) says that if the victim withdraws the assailant must accept such withdrawal and not continue or resume the use of force.

Under either provision for the loss of self defense immunity, the state will have an uphill battle making a case that meets the beyond reasonable doubt. To make Murder 2 (or even the less charge of Manslaughter though) they will have to nullify the self defense immunity claimed by Zimmerman and 776.041 is the only means to do that.

Not saying they are going to win, but if will be part of their strategy.

>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

George Zimmerman is not a fat and out of shape man. He's pretty fit.

Hey racist shithead, police booked Zimmerman as 5'7" 200 pounds. That makes Zimmerman obese, not just overweight. Compare to Travyon, who was significantly taller and at his prime weight (BMI 22, according to the autopsy).

Zimmerman's booking stats were Height = 5'8" @185 lbs.

Martins autopsy stats were Height = 5'11 @158 lbs.



>>>>

 

[KissMy]

Zimmerman was stalking him with a gun and you're saying that Martin had no right to defend himself? Not having been there - maybe Martin decided to conceal himself until Zimmerman came near and then jump him - after all only one of them was armed.

Again - You are stupid beyond words. You would have to be a complete idiot to come out of concealment & jump someone who was hunting you with a gun. That never happened, Martin never mentioned gun to his girlfriend.

 

[Ariux]

Zimmerman's booking stats were Height = 5'8" @185 lbs.

Martins autopsy stats were Height = 5'11 @158 lbs.

Okay, it was the police report that put Z at 5'7 200#. But, point still stands. Trayvon was significantly taller and Trayvon was neither fat nor thin. Add to that the fact that the traits of the Afro species gave Travon another advantage in a short fight. It's obvious why the fight was one-sided.

Indeed, by the time Zimmerman showed up in court, in cuffs and suit, he had probably lost a lot of weight due to stress.

 

[Liability]

Sorry, it's not "Period".

Under Florida Law, the event's leading up to that point are a factor to be considered.



I agree, to a degree. No "smoking gun" evidence has been released. However some of the evidence that has been released can be used by the state to undermine Zimmerman's story. For example, the 7-11 video shows no signs of "suspicious" or "drug induced behavior". The bullet path isn't consistent with Zimmerman shoting "up" into Martin. And lack of GSR could be indicative of a greater distance between the two based on an extended arm discharge of the firearm. Then of course we haven't seen the "clubhouse video" listed on the evidence list. If from security cameras and it shows no suspicious activity by Martin, then the very basis of Zimmerman's initial call and his description of events becomes suspect (and on the other hand if it does show suspicious behavior, it adds credibility to Zimmerman's story).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Not the way I read it.

The opening paragraph clearly indicates that the provisions of 776.041 allow for loss of self defense immunity (the preceding paragraphs in the law).

Paragraph "(1)" says the immunity is permanently lost if the individual was in the act of a forcible felony. Aggravated Assault under Florida Law is a forcible felony and would result either by : (a) simple assault coupled with attempted unlawful detention, OR (b) assault coupled with the use of a weapon. Assault need not be physical violence, assault can be conveyed through word or intent, which is different than battery which requires a physical action.

Paragraph "(2)" notes that if the initial aggressor had an opportunity to retreat once hostilities are started and fails to do so, then they also lose self defense immunity. This is were the state could attempt to use the forensic lack of GSR on Zimmerman's jacket and/or shirt to indicate that a straight arm extension was present at the time of firing the weapon which would indicate a greater distance between the two. If Zimmerman had pushed Martin off, then pulled his gun and fired - he would have not have taken advantage of an avenue to disengage.

Paragraph "(1)" and "(2)" are joined by an "or", which means loss of the self defense immunities present in the preceding paragraphs can be lost under either paragraph.


Again though, those are scenario's which don't apply **IF** the defense were to show Martin was the initial aggressor.


>>>>

I am opposed to a wall of words. So I limit my reply to JUST the final section of your post, which I have highlighted in bold and some hideous green color.

Taken sequentially: Section 1 by its own terms does not apply at all since nobody has said that Zimmerman had committed was committing or escaping after the commission of any felony. Accordingly, if he had any right to the justification defense, section one does not remove it.

I haven’t said that anyone else has said it.

The first indication of this track may be at the self defense hearing. Or it may not. We’ll have to wait and see.

***********************************************



Agreed, including the point that the none of the evidence at this point supports EITHER Zimmerman or Martin as the initial aggressor and yet many on these boards have expressed as an absolute certainty one way or the other.

A very few of us understand that the hostilities were initiate by one or the other PRIOR to the first witness viewing the scene. Many want to base the determination of “self defense” solely on what happened later, but “the nub of it” as you correctly say is what the precipitating events were. If Martin initiated hostilities, then Zimmerman’s self defense immunity remains intact during the entire time cycle of the event. However **IF** Zimmerman acted as the aggressor, then it is possible for him to lose such immunity.



On this point we need to wait and see, we have seen the raw data from the forensic reports. What was not included was the expert evaluation of what that raw data means.

Physical evidence that may indicate Zimmerman and Martin had a achieved a degree of separation may (speculation) be indicated by (a) the angle of the bullet path through Martin’s body as a straight chest shot is unnatural when two bodies are close together and the gun must be inserted between them and then angled to achieve a shot , and (b) the negative GSR on Zimmerman’s cloths which also would indicate that he wasn’t underneath Martin when the shot was fired. Lack of GSR would indicate that Zimmerman’s arm was extended away from him instead of inches above his own chest (because Martin was on top).




I agree.




Seems as if I haven’t read the statute differently then that, we however may be applying it differently.

Statutory construction is not as complicated as some people seem to believe -- even though the gibberish passed by legislatures often is needlessly convoluted.

That’s the truth.

By the way, in that regard, your analysis of the statute is incorrect. Since sections 1 and 2 were written in the disjunctive [i.e., the use of the "or"], the commission of a felony (section 1) does NOT permanently deprive a person of the justification defense (as you suggest it does) under the conditions described in the statute following the "unless."

Paragraph (1) does remove self defense immunity; however it can regained under specific actions outlined in 2(a) and 2(b). 2(a) requires that the aggressor must have availed themselves of escape if possible and 2(b) says that if the victim withdraws the assailant must accept such withdrawal and not continue or resume the use of force.

Under either provision for the loss of self defense immunity, the state will have an uphill battle making a case that meets the beyond reasonable doubt. To make Murder 2 (or even the less charge of Manslaughter though) they will have to nullify the self defense immunity claimed by Zimmerman and 776.041 is the only means to do that.

Not saying they are going to win, but if will be part of their strategy.

>>>>

The Government will have a very tough row to hoe. But who knows what other evidence might exist to which we are not yet privy? That's why ALL of the speculation so far is quite premature.

Still, those who have reached the premature conclusion that Zimmerman "is guilty" are particularly wrong. It is possible that he might yet be shown to be guilty. But not yet. If anything, the evidence, so far, suggests that he is probably innocent (at least in the eyes of the law) due to the law of justification.

 

[idb]

Zimmerman was stalking him with a gun and you're saying that Martin had no right to defend himself? Not having been there - maybe Martin decided to conceal himself until Zimmerman came near and then jump him - after all only one of them was armed.

Again - You are stupid beyond words. You would have to be a complete idiot to come out of concealment & jump someone who was hunting you with a gun. That never happened, Martin never mentioned gun to his girlfriend.

Your detailed knowledge of the situation is impressive.
You should call the investigating cops and explain to them how it all happened, including what each man was thinking and the exact reasons for their actions.
It would save them a lot of time and money.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Zimmerman was stalking him with a gun and you're saying that Martin had no right to defend himself? Not having been there - maybe Martin decided to conceal himself until Zimmerman came near and then jump him - after all only one of them was armed.

Again - You are stupid beyond words. You would have to be a complete idiot to come out of concealment & jump someone who was hunting you with a gun. That never happened, Martin never mentioned gun to his girlfriend.

Your detailed knowledge of the situation is impressive.
You should call the investigating cops and explain to them how it all happened, including what each man was thinking and the exact reasons for their actions.
It would save them a lot of time and money.

Well, someone needs to.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Hey racist shithead, police booked Zimmerman as 5'7" 200 pounds. That makes Zimmerman obese, not just overweight. Compare to Travyon, who was significantly taller and at his prime weight (BMI 22, according to the autopsy).

Booked him when? Years ago? Jim's own sources place Zimmerman at 5'8" and 185 lbs, which is pretty decent, overall.

Anyone having their head pounded against the ground is on the verge of blacking out.

In other words, you are going to insist that it's true, but produce no evidence.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Hey racist shithead, police booked Zimmerman as 5'7" 200 pounds. That makes Zimmerman obese, not just overweight. Compare to Travyon, who was significantly taller and at his prime weight (BMI 22, according to the autopsy).

Booked him when? Years ago? Jim's own sources place Zimmerman at 5'8" and 185 lbs, which is pretty decent, overall.

Anyone having their head pounded against the ground is on the verge of blacking out.

In other words, you are going to insist that it's true, but produce no evidence.

Lol, you are such an obvious fraud. I could explain how you have twisted the facts yet again, but I dont have the time.

Anyone with a brain knows that GZ probably lost a lot of weight while in hiding and being the subject of intense hatred across the country by fools like you.

And trying to build a case on the phrase 'verge of blacking out' is simply assinine.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Anyone with a brain knows that GZ probably lost a lot of weight while in hiding and being the subject of intense hatred across the country by fools like you.

First of all, that's complete and unadulterated speculation, coming out of nowhere. Second, it contradicts with your claim. If he lost weight while in hiding, then his weight at the time of booking should reflect that loss, not his weight before the loss. Third, it conflicts with the picture that was circulated of him before his arrest, in which he appears virtually identical in regards to weight as those pictures seen of him after arrest.

And trying to build a case on the phrase 'verge of blacking out' is simply assinine.

Uh, I'm not trying to "build a case" on a phrase. I'm pointing out that his story is full of contradictions. I'm sure you think you're cleaver for now abandoning your own claims after they've been shot to shit, while trying to maintain the same conclusion they were foolishly meant to establish, but in fact you're merely making yourself out to be an even bigger fool.

 

[Liability]

Dear inthemuddle:

Yes. There ARE some contradictions in the stories.

So why not shut the fuck up until the EVIDENCE is in, you douche nozzle?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Dear inthemuddle:

Yes. There ARE some contradictions in the stories.

So why not shut the fuck up until the EVIDENCE is in, you douche nozzle?

He has fallen in love with the sound of his own keyboard, lol.

 

[LilOlLady]

Shit-for-brains racist lynch mob thinks there should be scratches on his face all this time later. No one even said his face was scratched, in the first place.

Scars don't disappear over a month. Cuts leaves scars that remain for years. Dumb ass. I have scars that are 60 years old. Dumb ass.

 

[LilOlLady]

Dear inthemuddle:

Yes. There ARE some contradictions in the stories.

So why not shut the fuck up until the EVIDENCE is in, you douche nozzle?

Zimmerman the "wanna be super hero" cannot get his lie straight. He had his head bashed on concrete and had a wet back and grass stains and two clean cuts dripping a few drops of blood on a head that was "bashed into concrete"? If anyone buys Zimmerman's account they are either stupid or trying awfully hard to convince themselves of a preposterous scenario which is completely out of character with the established behavior and personality of George 46-Calls Zimmerman.
The more I hear of this guy, he is one screwed up in the head man. Adderal and Lorazapam? Four feet tall and trying to be six feet tall?

Americans around the country immediately responded with great emotion to Zimmerman’s actions because they made a judgment based on the color of Zimmerman’s skin -- and Martin’s -- while failing to understand the context, psychological background and history of George Zimmerman.

What they failed to see was not a man motivated by racism but a man who was instead, clearly motivated by anger, ego and a desire for power and control.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/29/what-if-zimmerman-wasnt-motivated-by-race/#ixzz1wGBTqN7K

 

[KissMy]

Shit-for-brains racist lynch mob thinks there should be scratches on his face all this time later. No one even said his face was scratched, in the first place.

Scars don't disappear over a month. Cuts leaves scars that remain for years. Dumb ass. I have scars that are 60 years old. Dumb ass.

60 years ago they did not have the quality wound dressing we have today. Heck Neosporin alone heals wounds 3 times faster with little to no scaring. In the old days they poured alcohol on it & let it burn like fire. That dried out the skin & did little to prevent infection. Now with peroxide & Neosporin things heal fast without a trace.

 

[starcraftzzz]

Zimmerman was stalking him with a gun and you're saying that Martin had no right to defend himself? Not having been there - maybe Martin decided to conceal himself until Zimmerman came near and then jump him - after all only one of them was armed.

Again - You are stupid beyond words. You would have to be a complete idiot to come out of concealment & jump someone who was hunting you with a gun. That never happened, Martin never mentioned gun to his girlfriend.

That is because Martin was attacked by Zimmerman before the gun was known. But only people who ignore the evidence dont know that

 

[starcraftzzz]

Hey racist shithead, police booked Zimmerman as 5'7" 200 pounds. That makes Zimmerman obese, not just overweight. Compare to Travyon, who was significantly taller and at his prime weight (BMI 22, according to the autopsy).

Booked him when? Years ago? Jim's own sources place Zimmerman at 5'8" and 185 lbs, which is pretty decent, overall.

Anyone having their head pounded against the ground is on the verge of blacking out.

In other words, you are going to insist that it's true, but produce no evidence.

Lol, you are such an obvious fraud. I could explain how you have twisted the facts yet again, but I dont have the time.

Anyone with a brain knows that GZ probably lost a lot of weight while in hiding and being the subject of intense hatred across the country by fools like you.

And trying to build a case on the phrase 'verge of blacking out' is simply assinine.

Yes you making shit up and being proven wrong a dozen times means others are a fraud.

 

[Oldstyle]

Zimmerman was stalking him with a gun and you're saying that Martin had no right to defend himself? Not having been there - maybe Martin decided to conceal himself until Zimmerman came near and then jump him - after all only one of them was armed.

Again - You are stupid beyond words. You would have to be a complete idiot to come out of concealment & jump someone who was hunting you with a gun. That never happened, Martin never mentioned gun to his girlfriend.

That is because Martin was attacked by Zimmerman before the gun was known. But only people who ignore the evidence dont know that

What "evidence" exists that proves in any way that George Zimmerman attacked Trayvon Martin?

The fact is that as George Zimmerman walks back from the back gate of that complex, he's talking on his cell phone to the police, arranging to meet them back by the front gate of the complex. Why is he doing so? Because he's lost Trayvon Martin. Several minutes have passed since Martin ran around the corner of a building and out of Zimmerman's view...ample time for Martin to make it to Brandy Green's townhouse...yet when Zimmerman starts walking back to his SUV...there is Trayvon Martin...coming from his left and behind to confront the man who had earlier questioned him. That isn't Zimmerman attacking Martin...it's clearly the other way around. But people who "ignore the evidence" don't see that...like yourself.

 

[Oldstyle]

Shit-for-brains racist lynch mob thinks there should be scratches on his face all this time later. No one even said his face was scratched, in the first place.

Scars don't disappear over a month. Cuts leaves scars that remain for years. Dumb ass. I have scars that are 60 years old. Dumb ass.

Minor abrasions do disappear over a month, Lil...they actually disappear much sooner than that and they seldom leave scars.