Get rid of Social Security now?

[OohPooPahDoo]

Yeah - they made the "mistake" of being poor.


Or maybe they made the mistake of listening to an investment advisor with the acumen of Skull Pilot.

Unbelievable. Poor has nothing to do with it. Besides, those who had low earnings throughout their work careers would not be helped by SS anyway. Sheesh.

Yeah - poverty has nothing to do with an individual's ability to save sufficient funds for retirement. You didn't do to well in math, did you?

 

[thereisnospoon]

You forgot another difference - the fact that if you divert SS revenues into private accounts, there will no longer be any funding to make payments to current SS beneficiaries. BUt hey, fuck them, right?

Then it is up to the federal government to return the money it stole from the SS fund.
No, genius. The new program would have to be phased in.
You people are so fearful of change. And you call us "conservatives".

How do you "phase it in" without taking any money from current beneficiaries? If next year 5% of SS revenues become diverted into private accounts - we'll need to find exactly that amount of money, from some other source, to keep paying current retirees. If next year 1% of SS revenues become diverted into private accounts - we'll need to find exactly that amount of money, from some other source, to keep paying current retirees. What is that source? Magic? You can't alter the fact that if you change from paygo to fully funded there is a funding gap, "phasing it in" merely spreads that gap over time - it still has to be paid for.

The problem with your approach is those working now are NOT paying current retirees. We are paying FUTURE retirees now.
Anyway, your whole attitude on this is one of defeat.
Here is my assessment of you and those who think like you.
Yes we know the system is broken, but we will resist all change.
Now...Meat and potatoes...
The easiest way to fund the new system is to remove the earnings cap.
The next is real easy. mandate that every single dime collected goes into a 100% untouchable fund. Not matter how much those pricks in DC drool, no goodies.
You see, Washington does not have a revenue problem. It has a spending problem.

 

[MikeK]

Why should I be anxious about dying? It's a natural thing that has happened and will happen to every person that has ever existed and will ever exist.

If I Live my life to the best of my ability I have nothing to be anxious about.

This is the typical disposition of a man in his 40s with a projected longevity of three to five more decades. Your psyche is defended against the effects of such a menacing awareness by the barrier of time. But if you were taken to a hospital with chest pains, given Last Rites and told you have less than an hour to live, do you really believe you would be so blasè about the impending prospect of being embalmed and buried in a box, never to see or be seen again?

Is it your assertion that everyone dies in a state of panic?

As I said, there are exceptions, e.g., having lived for some time in a state of miserable physical and/or emotional pain with no relief and having nothing left to live for, such as the example of condemned convicts on death row. Such a circumstance probably will alter the normal response to confronting one's finality. But some level of panic is the logically anticipated response of the relatively normal, healthy individual upon learning he or she is about to die.

The same psychic mechanism, however modified in scale, operates in the mind of a young, vital individual when contemplating old age and retirement.

 

[PaulS1950]

I have owned 3 businesses - two were successful and one went bust. I never complained about the costs of doing business - it was all passed on to the customer in the prices they paid for products and services - at a profit. Greedy? no, but I have to cover business expenses and a salary. I never made a bundle but I got by like most small business owners.
The paperwork was a major load on the businesses - I almost had to have a full time person just to keep all that up. If you took all that paperwork away it would make it a lot easier to run a business - not easy but easier.

 

[Skull Pilot]

45 years? I thought you said I was supposed to move it to bonds as I neared retirement. I'm supposed to keep my money in the stock market 45 years? 18+45 = 63 - and then move it to bonds. When exactly are people supposed to retire by your reckoning?

I never mentioned bonds specifically. And one can but mutual funds that are not equity based. Bond funds are sold via the stock market didn't you know that?



Hey if you want a guarantee then buy your annuities and get a guaranteed 3% or so while the insurance company who sold it to you earns 2 or 3 times that on your money



So you know that the stock market will fail do you?

Unlike yourself, I don't presume anything about future stock market results.

And as I said you don't have to put your money in the stock market.

Your analysis of how your idea is better than SS is based entirely on past stock market performance.

When you can analyze the future you let me know

 

[Skull Pilot]

And they all have disclaimers stating past performance is no indicator of future results - a disclaimer Skull and you have utterly ignored in your analysis.

Like I said before if you're afraid of the market then put your money in a coffee can and bury it in the yard.

So your investment strategy is simple then. You can either blindly throw money at market investments based entirely on the presumption that the past performance of the exceptionally well performing U.S. market during the latter half of the 20th century will continue forever - OR - you can bury it in the back yard.


Got it.

I don't throw money blindly into the market. It's your assumption that investing is a game of roulette not mine.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If we're talking about a voluntary investment program, why would one's employer match each contribution? Maybe a rare and exceptionally benevolent employer might (I think there might be one or two in the U.S. who are so inclined) but the only reason employers match the FICA contribution is Government says they must.

Where did I ever say it would be voluntary?

I have been talking about the 15% the government confiscates for SS and nothing else.

The saving can be legally compelled as it is now. The only difference is that each person would actually own his account rather than the government throwing the money into a slush fund.

You forgot another difference - the fact that if you divert SS revenues into private accounts, there will no longer be any funding to make payments to current SS beneficiaries. BUt hey, fuck them, right?

Given a sufficient phase in that wouldn't be a problem.

Given the fact that the government wastes billions every year I'm sure we could find the money.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why should I be anxious about dying? It's a natural thing that has happened and will happen to every person that has ever existed and will ever exist.

If I Live my life to the best of my ability I have nothing to be anxious about.

This is the typical disposition of a man in his 40s with a projected longevity of three to five more decades. Your psyche is defended against the effects of such a menacing awareness by the barrier of time. But if you were taken to a hospital with chest pains, given Last Rites and told you have less than an hour to live, do you really believe you would be so blasè about the impending prospect of being embalmed and buried in a box, never to see or be seen again?

So you're a psychiatrist now? I don't want to die any time soon but I also know I am going to get old and die. It was your assertion than people under 50 don't think they're going to get old and sorry but you're wrong.

And I plan on being cremated no rotting in the ground for me.

Is it your assertion that everyone dies in a state of panic?

As I said, there are exceptions, e.g., having lived for some time in a state of miserable physical and/or emotional pain with no relief and having nothing left to live for, such as the example of condemned convicts on death row. Such a circumstance probably will alter the normal response to confronting one's finality. But some level of panic is the logically anticipated response of the relatively normal, healthy individual upon learning he or she is about to die.

The same psychic mechanism, however modified in scale, operates in the mind of a young, vital individual when contemplating old age and retirement.

I'd like to see the scientific research that allows you to connect saving for retirement and fear of death.

I won't hold my breath.

BTW I opened up my first IRA when I was 18 so you see I have always saved money for the future.

In fact with my savings habits, if I were allowed to keep all the money the government has taken from me for the SS slush fund I could very well be retired right now.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

We are stuck with both SS and Medicare. IMO these programs never, ever should have been brought about.

I wonder how popular they would be if you could only take out exactly what you put in?? If you couldn't take from those coming behind you??

If I could I would take every dime I have in both those assininee programs. I can take care of and grow my money a hell of a lot bette than some asshole in DC ever could.

The issue with social security is: If you are desiring to leave for yourself SOME kind of retirement savings account to live off of, why on earth would you entrust your hard working dollar to the most financially incompetent organization you can find? It's ironic though the government that squanders away peoples' future retirement, what little of it remains, is the same government that puts Madoff in prison for it (and don't tell me Nancy Pelosi didn't enjoy wasting our tax dollars on her own luxurious private plane as Speaker of the House).

Unfortunately we haven't learned our lesson, when we find we have finally reached our retirement years ..... much to our amazement (for those who still believes "government" is the better answer) the politicians pulls a Charlie Brown on us and removes the football. Now these idiots want us to think Obamacare will somehow be the only exception to the rule, of government being "responsible" enough and able to miraculously micro manage it better. Let me say Federal Government and more efficient, are words you will never find spoken in the same sentence.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

If we're talking about a voluntary investment program, why would one's employer match each contribution? Maybe a rare and exceptionally benevolent employer might (I think there might be one or two in the U.S. who are so inclined) but the only reason employers match the FICA contribution is Government says they must.

Where did I ever say it would be voluntary?

I have been talking about the 15% the government confiscates for SS and nothing else.

The saving can be legally compelled as it is now. The only difference is that each person would actually own his account rather than the government throwing the money into a slush fund.

You forgot another difference - the fact that if you divert SS revenues into private accounts, there will no longer be any funding to make payments to current SS beneficiaries. BUt hey, fuck them, right?

I think people in general would feel better about controlling their own private accounts, than wait for the government to make up their minds as to when and how much you are allowed to take of YOUR own money. The more government plays around, puts their greedy hands where it doesn't belong, then holds your retirement off for another 5 years when the piper says it's time to collect, people begin to see that this wasn't the best investment to depend on when they need it most. Young people particularly, aren't stupid enough to want to see themselves suckered into the same program that screwed their grandparents over. That's why a private account is making more sense to them. You speak of where all the money will be for those about to retire? That, in fact, is a very good question to bring to your Federal Government entrusted with your social security savings. Where exactly IS all that money now?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Then it is up to the federal government to return the money it stole from the SS fund.
No, genius. The new program would have to be phased in.
You people are so fearful of change. And you call us "conservatives".

How do you "phase it in" without taking any money from current beneficiaries? If next year 5% of SS revenues become diverted into private accounts - we'll need to find exactly that amount of money, from some other source, to keep paying current retirees. If next year 1% of SS revenues become diverted into private accounts - we'll need to find exactly that amount of money, from some other source, to keep paying current retirees. What is that source? Magic? You can't alter the fact that if you change from paygo to fully funded there is a funding gap, "phasing it in" merely spreads that gap over time - it still has to be paid for.

The problem with your approach is those working now are NOT paying current retirees. We are paying FUTURE retirees now.
Anyway, your whole attitude on this is one of defeat.
Here is my assessment of you and those who think like you.
Yes we know the system is broken, but we will resist all change.
Now...Meat and potatoes...
The easiest way to fund the new system is to remove the earnings cap.
The next is real easy. mandate that every single dime collected goes into a 100% untouchable fund. Not matter how much those pricks in DC drool, no goodies.
You see, Washington does not have a revenue problem. It has a spending problem.

The problem comes when you actually look to depend on the Federal Government to supply your needs, instead of altering your lifestyle and making the necessary sacrifices to set aside for your OWN retirement. People who choose to educate themselves, learn instead of throwing blatant excuses, and through a little "initiative" take charge of their own decisions, will find themselves (in comparison) as the most successful in life down the road.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I have owned 3 businesses - two were successful and one went bust. I never complained about the costs of doing business - it was all passed on to the customer in the prices they paid for products and services - at a profit. Greedy? no, but I have to cover business expenses and a salary. I never made a bundle but I got by like most small business owners.
The paperwork was a major load on the businesses - I almost had to have a full time person just to keep all that up. If you took all that paperwork away it would make it a lot easier to run a business - not easy but easier.

I commend anyone who steps up and takes a risk at owning a business, it's no easy endeavor. I have known two that have tried it, not very successful, in this economy. Entertained the "thought" myself after seeing the quality of work and standards performed by other businesses in my field. It's truely a remarkable rewarding achievement, if you can live up all to the tasks and problem solving frustrations involved in keeping it going.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Where did I ever say it would be voluntary?

I have been talking about the 15% the government confiscates for SS and nothing else.

The saving can be legally compelled as it is now. The only difference is that each person would actually own his account rather than the government throwing the money into a slush fund.

You forgot another difference - the fact that if you divert SS revenues into private accounts, there will no longer be any funding to make payments to current SS beneficiaries. BUt hey, fuck them, right?

Given a sufficient phase in that wouldn't be a problem.

Given the fact that the government wastes billions every year I'm sure we could find the money.

How very true..... and what they don't have they will either borrow from China to support their spending habit, or just print more and devalue the dollar even further.

 

[Mac1958]

And they all have disclaimers stating past performance is no indicator of future results - a disclaimer Skull and you have utterly ignored in your analysis.

Like I said before if you're afraid of the market then put your money in a coffee can and bury it in the yard.

So your investment strategy is simple then. You can either blindly throw money at market investments based entirely on the presumption that the past performance of the exceptionally well performing U.S. market during the latter half of the 20th century will continue forever - OR - you can bury it in the back yard.


Got it.

King of the Obtuse.

.

 

[regent]

Everything was hunky dorey before Democrats brought in Social Security. People could save or not save as they wished, or better yet, play the stock market and reap bundles of money from those poor Wall Street fools. Now we have to live a long life, get disabled or something to collect. And perhaps the real tragedy was FDIC, before it was a real gamble picking the right bank to save your money more exciting than playing Vegas. Wouldn't it be great if Republicans could really bring back those glory days?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Everything was hunky dorey before Democrats brought in Social Security. People could save or not save as they wished, or better yet, play the stock market and reap bundles of money from those poor Wall Street fools. Now we have to live a long life, get disabled or something to collect. And perhaps the real tragedy was FDIC, before it was a real gamble picking the right bank to save your money more exciting than playing Vegas. Wouldn't it be great if Republicans could really bring back those glory days?

You don't get my point at all. Imagine that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Everything was hunky dorey before Democrats brought in Social Security. People could save or not save as they wished, or better yet, play the stock market and reap bundles of money from those poor Wall Street fools. Now we have to live a long life, get disabled or something to collect. And perhaps the real tragedy was FDIC, before it was a real gamble picking the right bank to save your money more exciting than playing Vegas. Wouldn't it be great if Republicans could really bring back those glory days?

You have a firm grasp on the use of non-sequiturs.

 

[MikeK]

Young people particularly, aren't stupid enough to want to see themselves suckered into the same program that screwed their grandparents over. That's why a private account is making more sense to them. You speak of where all the money will be for those about to retire? That, in fact, is a very good question to bring to your Federal Government entrusted with your social security savings. Where exactly IS all that money now?

I am a grandparent. I've been collecting Social Security for over eleven years and barring a medical catastrophe I'll be collecting for another ten or fifteen years, which means I will collect a hell of a lot more than I (and my employers) contributed. I don't think of that as being "screwed over."

Could I have done better if I'd put that money into some private investments? Maybe. But I also could have done a lot worse. Because first of all I know nothing about investing, nor to I wish to know more about it -- and I am by far not the only working class American who feels that way.

I also invested in U.S. Savings Bonds for most of my working life and I have a nice little stack of those. Like Social Security they don't pay off as well as some other bonds I could have bought, but as with Social Security I opted for the absence of risk.

My entire financial situation is based on advice I got from my parents and grandparents, who suffered through the Great Depression. They emphatically warned us against private investments. They advised us to take civil service jobs with good pensions, avoid debt, and invest in nothing but Government bonds. I followed that advice to the letter and I have absolutely no regrets. I'm doing just fine.

If you believe what your Libertarian mentors have told you, all I can tell you is I live in a very large Retirement community in New Jersey (Leisure Village) and I've met several people here whose private investments were either nearly or completely wiped out in 2008 and were it not for their Social Security supplement would be living off their children or welfare. I wish I could put you in touch with them so you could hear what they have to say.

One thing I know about investing is returns are predicated on level of risk. I'm one of those who prefer a sure thing. And, unlike you and most other Libertarians I believe Social Security is a good thing, I have faith in it, and I know that anyone who is content with ordinary comforts and reasonable luxuries can have them by avoiding the fast lane and playing it safe.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Young people particularly, aren't stupid enough to want to see themselves suckered into the same program that screwed their grandparents over. That's why a private account is making more sense to them. You speak of where all the money will be for those about to retire? That, in fact, is a very good question to bring to your Federal Government entrusted with your social security savings. Where exactly IS all that money now?

I am a grandparent. I've been collecting Social Security for over eleven years and barring a medical catastrophe I'll be collecting for another ten or fifteen years, which means I will collect a hell of a lot more than I (and my employers) contributed. I don't think of that as being "screwed over."

Could I have done better if I'd put that money into some private investments? Maybe. But I also could have done a lot worse. Because first of all I know nothing about investing, nor to I wish to know more about it -- and I am by far not the only working class American who feels that way.

I also invested in U.S. Savings Bonds for most of my working life and I have a nice little stack of those. Like Social Security they don't pay off as well as some other bonds I could have bought, but as with Social Security I opted for the absence of risk.

My entire financial situation is based on advice I got from my parents and grandparents, who suffered through the Great Depression. They emphatically warned us against private investments. They advised us to take civil service jobs with good pensions, avoid debt, and invest in nothing but Government bonds. I followed that advice to the letter and I have absolutely no regrets. I'm doing just fine.

If you believe what your Libertarian mentors have told you, all I can tell you is I live in a very large Retirement community in New Jersey (Leisure Village) and I've met several people here whose private investments were either nearly or completely wiped out in 2008 and were it not for their Social Security supplement would be living off their children or welfare. I wish I could put you in touch with them so you could hear what they have to say.

One thing I know about investing is returns are predicated on level of risk. I'm one of those who prefer a sure thing. And, unlike you and most other Libertarians I believe Social Security is a good thing, I have faith in it, and I know that anyone who is content with ordinary comforts and reasonable luxuries can have them by avoiding the fast lane and playing it safe.

Yes. Your parents told you to take the easy way out. Slide into a a civil service job and sponge off the taxpayers when you're done at age 55.
Public service was never meant to be a career until the fucking unions got ahold of it.
Then those unions got into bed with and began fornicating with the politicians who promised to support the public worker unions as long as the union bosses kept delivering votes. And every one of those votes turned into massive tax increases and exponential growth of wasteful and all consuming government.
It is completely illogical for a town of 4700 people to employee over 75 public workers. That is precisely what my home town in NJ does. The taxes are such that people who have been in their homes for 30 or 40 years were being taxed out of those homes.
And for what, so people like you could "put in your time" and retire long before you should then have the taxpayers continue to pay you to NOT work? Horseshit. Newsflash, it's OVER.
It is time these high wages and gold plated benefits were reined in. It has already started.
There are over 20 states where public employees do not have the right to collective bargaining. And guess what? NO drop off in service In fact it's better. Employees cannot fuck off and then hide behind a union thug. If the worker screws up, they get canned.
Your notion of government being preferable to the private sector makes me want to puke.
Without the private sector, just who would government go to for funding? Did you ever think about that? No of course not. You took the easy way out. You had some douche bag union thugs and the politicians they had in his breast pocket there to protect you from reality.
BTW, those investments were NOT wiped out. They lost value, But the problem was the panic selling.
For example, let's say a retired person invested $1000 in a mutual fund. At it's peak the fund was valued at $5000. Then the economy collapsed and the fund was worth $1500..
The first reaction was to sell at the bottom Why? because in the mind of the retired person they LOST $3500...When in reality they were still UP $500....A lot of people got a lot of bad advice. My parents tried to dump all of their investments. I wanted to strangle them. The sold off some at the bottom but I was able to stop them from selling the rest. And of course what happened? The markets recovered and are at higher levels ( no thanks to Obama) then in 2006.
If everyone were to listen to your philosophy the private sector would dry up and blow away in the wind. Then who funds your wonderful government pension? Santa Claus?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Young people particularly, aren't stupid enough to want to see themselves suckered into the same program that screwed their grandparents over. That's why a private account is making more sense to them. You speak of where all the money will be for those about to retire? That, in fact, is a very good question to bring to your Federal Government entrusted with your social security savings. Where exactly IS all that money now?

I am a grandparent. I've been collecting Social Security for over eleven years and barring a medical catastrophe I'll be collecting for another ten or fifteen years, which means I will collect a hell of a lot more than I (and my employers) contributed. I don't think of that as being "screwed over."

For someone who has admitted to never actually doing the math you are certainly awful sure of the numbers.

Could I have done better if I'd put that money into some private investments? Maybe. But I also could have done a lot worse. Because first of all I know nothing about investing, nor to I wish to know more about it -- and I am by far not the only working class American who feels that way.

Yes we know you are too lazy to learn how to invest. But that is no reason to force those of us who aren't to relinquish 15% of our income to the fucking government.

I also invested in U.S. Savings Bonds for most of my working life and I have a nice little stack of those. Like Social Security they don't pay off as well as some other bonds I could have bought, but as with Social Security I opted for the absence of risk.

If we privatize SS you could have bought all the savings bonds you wanted and others could have invested in a balanced portfolio.

But since you don't want to control your own money you believe that no one should be able to.

My entire financial situation is based on advice I got from my parents and grandparents, who suffered through the Great Depression. They emphatically warned us against private investments. They advised us to take civil service jobs with good pensions, avoid debt, and invest in nothing but Government bonds. I followed that advice to the letter and I have absolutely no regrets. I'm doing just fine.

Bad advice all around.

And I don't care if you have regrets or not. I care about the 15% of my income that is taken from me. As I said before if I had control of that money I would either already be retired and living off my investments or I'd be pretty damn close to it.

If you believe what your Libertarian mentors have told you, all I can tell you is I live in a very large Retirement community in New Jersey (Leisure Village) and I've met several people here whose private investments were either nearly or completely wiped out in 2008 and were it not for their Social Security supplement would be living off their children or welfare. I wish I could put you in touch with them so you could hear what they have to say.

One thing I know about investing is returns are predicated on level of risk. I'm one of those who prefer a sure thing. And, unlike you and most other Libertarians I believe Social Security is a good thing, I have faith in it, and I know that anyone who is content with ordinary comforts and reasonable luxuries can have them by avoiding the fast lane and playing it safe.

Well those people who were wiped out as you say are like you and didn't bother to learn about investing. Anyone with the bulk of their portfolio in equities in retirement is a fucking idiot.

And if you think allowing a government that is 16 trillion in debt to take your money and toss it in a slush fund isn't risky then you sir are suffering senile dementia.