Gingrich: Palestinians an ‘invented’ people

[The T]

The arab countries hate and fear the palestinians. Syria has had a refugee camp on their border for decades and won't allow them in.

The palestiinian CAUSE is a rallying point for arabs to unite against the Jews in making demands on the west.

What would happen if the palestinians were successful in driving out the Jews and making a fully palestinian state is the bordering nations would immediately move to get their land back. Palestine would become another Kashmir, disputed territory.

The 'Palestinians' are political pawns...wretched refuse...

 

[Katzndogz]

America's palestinians.

La Raza as Palestinians

 

[Katzndogz]

The arab countries hate and fear the palestinians. Syria has had a refugee camp on their border for decades and won't allow them in.

The palestiinian CAUSE is a rallying point for arabs to unite against the Jews in making demands on the west.

What would happen if the palestinians were successful in driving out the Jews and making a fully palestinian state is the bordering nations would immediately move to get their land back. Palestine would become another Kashmir, disputed territory.

The 'Palestinians' are political pawns...wretched refuse...

Zahir Muhse, member of the PLO Executive Committee, in interview with Dutch newspaper, Trouw, 1977

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

 

[dblack]

I wonder how the folks in Kansas, for example, would take to the UN coming and declaring Topeka and suburbs as the new American Indian homeland.

Sorry guys, you gotta move.

How do you suppose that would play out?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not the people who actually OWNED Kansas agreed with it. For the purposes of this analogy, that would be the United States. In the case of the formation of the state of Israel, the territory was owned by the British, I believe.

I suspect more than a few Kansans would disagree with you about who 'owns' them or their land.

 

[Gadawg73]

How many Palestinians that have murdered their own people in the name of "the war on Zionism" have been tried and convicted in any Palestinian tribunal?

 

[Gadawg73]

The arab countries hate and fear the palestinians. Syria has had a refugee camp on their border for decades and won't allow them in.

The palestiinian CAUSE is a rallying point for arabs to unite against the Jews in making demands on the west.

What would happen if the palestinians were successful in driving out the Jews and making a fully palestinian state is the bordering nations would immediately move to get their land back. Palestine would become another Kashmir, disputed territory.

Exactly. Same with the Saudis.
Monarchies and dictatorships want no change.
It is all a deflection. Years ago the Palestinians asked themselves "what is the biggest rallying point for Isreal that has made them so good at holding THEIR land for so long" and the answer was RELIGION. So what did they do? Declare a holy war on the Jews.
And the others sit and watch and cheer them on. Why? Because they know that without a boogeyman in the region they would be next.
As illustrated now with all of the turmoil in the region.
RELIGION is the cause of most of the world's wars.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Apparently he has. He certainly has his Nazi talking points down. Hitler claimed Poland wasn't a real country, either.

Gingrich is a Nazi because he doesnt agree with your stupid notions of what constitutes a nation and people?

Would appear that you are the asshole.

I wonder if it would be possible to install a Godwin trigger that would automatically close a thread (or at least flag it noticeably) once the Nazi comparison is raised... hmmm

I'd like a trigger that automatically puts the person making it on ignore.

 

[The T]

The arab countries hate and fear the palestinians. Syria has had a refugee camp on their border for decades and won't allow them in.

The palestiinian CAUSE is a rallying point for arabs to unite against the Jews in making demands on the west.

What would happen if the palestinians were successful in driving out the Jews and making a fully palestinian state is the bordering nations would immediately move to get their land back. Palestine would become another Kashmir, disputed territory.

The 'Palestinians' are political pawns...wretched refuse...

Zahir Muhse, member of the PLO Executive Committee, in interview with Dutch newspaper, Trouw, 1977

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

The sole aim is to destroy Israel.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Then America is an invented nation as well.

Well, of course it is, you silly bitch. ALL nations are invented.

So who invented the cultural nation of Russia? and what date was that?



Some borders do if they coincide with natural featurs such as rivers or watershed lines.

But borders do not define what is a German, a Frenchman or an Englishman. Language, culture, traditions, loyalties and prefered practices for daily living define nations.

Borders are just a means to reduce the confusion as to who owns what.

Then America is an invented Nations are created by some group saying, "We're going to take this chunk of land over THERE, and we're going to be our own country." And then generally, they have to beat the hell out of everyone else who wants that chunk of land.

Borders may be, but no one sat down and decided to just invent Russia.

Then America is an invented America an invented nation? What did you think the purpose of the Revolutionary War WAS?

It was to seperate our cultural group from a government representing a different cultural group thousands of miles aacross the Atlantic Ocean. But the culture as defined by attitudes, living practices, notions of what is just, convenient, honorable, effective, etc was seperated from British culture long before the Treaty of Paris made our boundries seperate.

Edit: Note I had originally attributed statements by Cecilie1200 to paperview and I want to appologize to paperview for the error, and to Cecilie1200 for the mix up also. It is now corrected.

Well, that's good. I have no idea what you're talking about at this point. You appear to need to learn the difference between "nation" and "cultural nation".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Didn't play out "pretty well actually" for the Indians.
We slaughtered them while giving them shit for land sand and rocks.

That last line is PC myth and a slander on a lot of good people who I doubt you would have dared to say that to their face were they here.

PC Myth?

You mean those infected blankets werent infected?

The badlands are fertile?

Perhaps you ought to lose the kneejerk "Oh, the poor Indians" reaction and try to stick to the context of the actual conversation. No one was talking about "how would that play out" in the context of "the poor Indians were abused, boo hoo". The question was "how would that play out" in the context of "would the government's action be allowed to stand".

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wonder how the folks in Kansas, for example, would take to the UN coming and declaring Topeka and suburbs as the new American Indian homeland.

Sorry guys, you gotta move.

How do you suppose that would play out?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not the people who actually OWNED Kansas agreed with it. For the purposes of this analogy, that would be the United States. In the case of the formation of the state of Israel, the territory was owned by the British, I believe.

I suspect more than a few Kansans would disagree with you about who 'owns' them or their land.

Who said anything about owning Kansans? Last time I checked, owning people was illegal in this country.

I actually doubt that Kansans would argue that the state of Kansas is legally US territory, subject to US jurisdiction.

 

[dblack]

Who said anything about owning Kansans? Last time I checked, owning people was illegal in this country.

It was implied you your post which suggested that the United States owned Kansas.

I actually doubt that Kansans would argue that the state of Kansas is legally US territory, subject to US jurisdiction.

You're just sidestepping the point. How do you think Kansans would respond to be ordered to give up their homes and their land? Do you think they'd take up arms? Do you think they'd just forget about it after a few years?

How would you react in a similar situation?

 

[Gadawg73]

That last line is PC myth and a slander on a lot of good people who I doubt you would have dared to say that to their face were they here.

PC Myth?

You mean those infected blankets werent infected?

The badlands are fertile?

Perhaps you ought to lose the kneejerk "Oh, the poor Indians" reaction and try to stick to the context of the actual conversation. No one was talking about "how would that play out" in the context of "the poor Indians were abused, boo hoo". The question was "how would that play out" in the context of "would the government's action be allowed to stand".

You folks are about as naive as they come.
They rounded up thousands here, including on the land that I live on now in Cherokee county, Ga. Less than a mile from where I live was a major area of the Cherokee nation on the Etowah river. When the WalMart was built over there we forced them to conduct an archaelogical study that recovered thousands of artifacts.
Sad that you folks are ignorant of The Trail of Tears which wiped out the ENTIRE Indian population in Georgia. President Jackson ordered that scorched earth policy.
I suggest American History 101 for you folks or the many Indian museums here in Georgia that will teach you the facts.
Again, the Indians were slaughtered. Additionally ALL 351 treaties we made with the Indians were broken.
What I find amazing is most Americans glorify Custer and paint him and his men as being slaughtered by the Indians.
But there is another cowboys and Indians movie starring John Wayne today at 5. Get the popcorn and white hats ready.

 

[JoeB131]

My own thoughts on the "Palestinians as a Nation" thing.

Palestinians are no more a "nation" than Syrians, Jordanians or Iraqis... These were artificial borders drawn up by the great powers in dismembering the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, with the intent of making them easier to manage and exploit.

There's no real cultural difference between the Arabs depending on what side of the Jordan River the live on.

Now, that said, the ones who live WEST of the Jordan River were there first. The real problem was that the Jewish settlers have displaced a lot of these people, and that's a regional resentment, not a local one.

Israel's overall problem is Demographics. Right now, there are 7 million people in Israel pre-1967 borders. 1 million Arabs and 6 million jews. There are another 4 million arabs living in the "occuppied territories". There are probably another 2 million "Palestinians" living in Jordan, Syria and Egypt who were displaced by the numerous wars and occupations. This is why the "Right of Return" often becomes a sticking point in these negotiations.

Now, here's were it gets tricky, my lovelies.

The Arab birth rate continues to climb, but the Jewish/Israeli birthrate declines. While boosted by immigration for a while, immigration is now going in the other direction. Many of these Jews have realized Adolf Hitler has been dead for a long time now, and they are probably better off living in a secular Europe or even a Christian US.

At one point, there will be more Arabs than Jews. So really, spinning off the "Occuppied Territories" into a Palestinian state is a more viable option than trying to assimilate them into Israel.

 

[mudwhistle]

he finally said something i agree with.

Do you think maybe Newt knows this because he's read a history book?

Apparently he has. He certainly has his Nazi talking points down. Hitler claimed Poland wasn't a real country, either.

Newt has this strange habit of saying the sensible non-politically correct thing all of the time.

Yesterday they said he mentioned this on Fox and my only answer to that was "So......he's right!!!"

 

[mudwhistle]

My own thoughts on the "Palestinians as a Nation" thing.

Palestinians are no more a "nation" than Syrians, Jordanians or Iraqis... These were artificial borders drawn up by the great powers in dismembering the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, with the intent of making them easier to manage and exploit.

There's no real cultural difference between the Arabs depending on what side of the Jordan River the live on.

Now, that said, the ones who live WEST of the Jordan River were there first. The real problem was that the Jewish settlers have displaced a lot of these people, and that's a regional resentment, not a local one.

Israel's overall problem is Demographics. Right now, there are 7 million people in Israel pre-1967 borders. 1 million Arabs and 6 million jews. There are another 4 million arabs living in the "occuppied territories". There are probably another 2 million "Palestinians" living in Jordan, Syria and Egypt who were displaced by the numerous wars and occupations. This is why the "Right of Return" often becomes a sticking point in these negotiations.

Now, here's were it gets tricky, my lovelies.

The Arab birth rate continues to climb, but the Jewish/Israeli birthrate declines. While boosted by immigration for a while, immigration is now going in the other direction. Many of these Jews have realized Adolf Hitler has been dead for a long time now, and they are probably better off living in a secular Europe or even a Christian US.

At one point, there will be more Arabs than Jews. So really, spinning off the "Occuppied Territories" into a Palestinian state is a more viable option than trying to assimilate them into Israel.

There are currently around 13 million Jews. How many Arabs are there already?

There are around 100 million Muslims of all nationalities.

There are around 1.2 billion Christians.

There are probably more Buddhists and Hindus then there are Jews.

Not all Arabs are Muslim. Some are Jewish or follow the religion. Some are Christians. This is the reason for many of the Islamic purges of the last 200 years.

 

[georgephillip]

do you have any links to back that up other than gore vidals word? 2 Million was a huge amount of cash back then, I am, 'skeptical'.

Especially in the light of the FACTS in that; Truman was speaking out for Jews ( and continued to push for more immigration of jews to israel) as early as August 1945, just 3 months in office. AND in Oct 1946, (note the date please) he issued a statement on sppt. of a Jewish state?hello.

"Many who are aware of Harry Truman's support for Israel and his desegregation of the armed forces are shocked by the anti-Semitic statements contained in his recently discovered 1947 diary.

"But Truman's bigotry comes as little surprise to historians who have studied the man and his career.

"Truman's ugly comments about Jews being 'very, very selfish' and, as such, not caring 'how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered,' or his charge that 'neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog,' are distressingly consistent with his disparaging views about other racial and ethnic minorities.

"As a younger man, he wrote in a 1911 letter to his wife, Bess: 'I think one man is as good as another so long as he's honest and decent and not a ****** or a Chinaman."

We Can Learn a Lot From Truman the Bigot - Los Angeles Times

Racist tools like Truman supported a Jewish state for the same reason Charles I supported the Ulster Plantation in 1609; divide and conquer is how all empires grow sick and die.

Israel was created in 1948 to buy US made weapons that were paid for by US taxpayers.
At a time when two-thirds of the population of Mandate Palestine was not Jewish.

that doesn't answer my remark on your absolute bullshit post george, focus, here ya go, one more time, the 2 million he was bribed with?

and your wild punches above don't help you, you sound deranged.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/4521996-post109.html

I'll type more slowly...here ya go, Champ:

Gore Vidal, whom Newsweek has called "the best all-round man of letters since Edmund Wilson," quotes John F Kennedy claiming Truman was "pretty much abandoned" in the 1948 when an American Zionist brought Truman two million dollars in cash.

"'That's why our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.' As neither Jack nor I was an antisemite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene corruption of American politics."

Convince me there's no corruption in America politics before you resort to deranged charges of bullshit. While you're at it, tell me how much the Democrats spent to elect Truman in 1948.

Focus.

Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years

 

[bripat9643]

You mean some Arabs who lived in Jordanian and Egyptian territory chose to call themselves Palestinians after their overlords lost a war of aggression against Israel.

There has never been any nation called "Palestine" nor any people called the "Palestinians" prior to the war against Israel in 1948. That is simply a fact, and all the libturd anti-Semites in this forum can't change it.

Anti-Semites?

Palestinians are semitic too you god damned idiot. How the fuck do you tie your shoes in the morning?

Traditionally, "anti-Semite" is the word Americans use to refer to people who have an irrational hatred of Jews. Whether it is scientifically correct is an issue only for anti-Semites who don't want to be accurately identified as anti-Semites.

 

[paperview]

"Israeli historian Tom Segev,... said the argument about the existence of the Palestinian people is a thing of the past.

"There is no intelligent person today who argues about the existence of the Palestinian people," Segev said.

"Nations are created gradually. I don't think the Palestinians are less of a nation than the Americans," he added.
Estrin reported from Jerusalem.


The Associated Press: Gingrich stands by "invented" people remark

 

[JoeB131]

There are currently around 13 million Jews. How many Arabs are there already?

There are around 100 million Muslims of all nationalities.

There are around 1.2 billion Christians.

There are probably more Buddhists and Hindus then there are Jews.

Not all Arabs are Muslim. Some are Jewish or follow the religion. Some are Christians. This is the reason for many of the Islamic purges of the last 200 years.

Actually, the number of Muslims in the world is closer to 1 billion, and the number of Christians of all stripes is about 2 billion.

But that's not the point I was trying to get across. The rational of a Jewish state has been that after WWII, they could no longer trust other religions to merely tolerate them, they needed their own state.

But Jews living in Israel live in more fear than the ones living in New York. I mean, in NYC, all you got to worry about are muggers.