God is the only rational explanation for the existence of the universe.

[there4eyeM]

'God' is unexplained, and inexplicable.

 

[there4eyeM]

What has caused the expansion of the universe to increase in speed?

 

[sealybobo]

For all things there is a final state of fact.

Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the same as claiming to know exactly what those facts are, Shaman Ding. Don't play cute.

No maybe about it. For all things there is a final state of fact. That once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way even when it was believed to have been otherwise.

You might say it is eternal and unchanging.

Heat flows from high energy to low energy. As time approaches infinity, temperature approaches equilibrium, unless heat is put into the system. It has nothing to do with models. It is a natural phenomenon.

And, like I said, it may be that it never gets there.

It always gets there in an infinite amount of time. It never rests. None of the laws of compensation do.

I'm trying to catch up. Here is what I know or believe. The visible universe that we know was born and will die. One day the last black hole will explode and the entire universe will be in darkness. There may be a big crunch where all the old dead planets suns moons meteors and comits come together again and then a new universe is born.

And while this universe might die, that doesn't mean another one didn't live in it's place before it was born.

When you say for all things there is a final state of fact. Is that true for your god?

If God is existence itself, as I believe, then God is the final state of fact as final state of fact means reality.

If the universe were to crunch itself it would move from a state of less ordered to more ordered but it still would not regain it's lost useable energy from each matter to energy or energy to matter exchange that had happened up to that point. Do this an infinite amount of times and it will eventually reach thermal equilibrium.

The only way to avoid this fate is to add energy into the system which then begs the question of describing that outside force and we are right back where we started from.

Then existence is eternal.

Will We Discover That the Universe Had No Beginning and Has No End? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Does the Universe Need God? - Sean Carroll

Big Bang Didn't Need God, Stephen Hawking Says

In another observation of modern religion, Hawking noted that in the 1980s, around the time he released a paper discussing the moment the universe was born, Pope John Paul II admonished the scientific establishment against studying the moment of creation, as it was holy.

Hawking closed the event with a familiar plea for continued exploration of the cosmos: “We must continue to go into space for the future of humanity,” he said, adding, “I don’t think we will survive another thousand years without escaping our fragile planet.”

 

[ding]

For all things there is a final state of fact.

Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the same as claiming to know exactly what those facts are, Shaman Ding. Don't play cute.

No maybe about it. For all things there is a final state of fact. That once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way even when it was believed to have been otherwise.

You might say it is eternal and unchanging.

Heat flows from high energy to low energy. As time approaches infinity, temperature approaches equilibrium, unless heat is put into the system. It has nothing to do with models. It is a natural phenomenon.

And, like I said, it may be that it never gets there.

It always gets there in an infinite amount of time. It never rests. None of the laws of compensation do.

I'm trying to catch up. Here is what I know or believe. The visible universe that we know was born and will die. One day the last black hole will explode and the entire universe will be in darkness. There may be a big crunch where all the old dead planets suns moons meteors and comits come together again and then a new universe is born.

And while this universe might die, that doesn't mean another one didn't live in it's place before it was born.

When you say for all things there is a final state of fact. Is that true for your god?

If God is existence itself, as I believe, then God is the final state of fact as final state of fact means reality.

If the universe were to crunch itself it would move from a state of less ordered to more ordered but it still would not regain it's lost useable energy from each matter to energy or energy to matter exchange that had happened up to that point. Do this an infinite amount of times and it will eventually reach thermal equilibrium.

The only way to avoid this fate is to add energy into the system which then begs the question of describing that outside force and we are right back where we started from.

Then existence is eternal.

Will We Discover That the Universe Had No Beginning and Has No End? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Does the Universe Need God? - Sean Carroll

Big Bang Didn't Need God, Stephen Hawking Says

In another observation of modern religion, Hawking noted that in the 1980s, around the time he released a paper discussing the moment the universe was born, Pope John Paul II admonished the scientific establishment against studying the moment of creation, as it was holy.

Hawking closed the event with a familiar plea for continued exploration of the cosmos: “We must continue to go into space for the future of humanity,” he said, adding, “I don’t think we will survive another thousand years without escaping our fragile planet.”

Yes. Rather than being a late outgrown, mind has always existed as the matrix or source of physical stuff.

 

[RWNJ]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

 

[Czernobog]

So, my terms were off. The point is it is a continually expanding, and contracting universe without the need to God.

Way off. His model still had us in a hot dense state and then expanding and cooling. His quantum universe was forever. But the universe we live in where there is matter and energy, started in a hot dense state and then began to expand and cool immediately and that was ~14 billion years ago.

And?

And he wasn't talking about an infinite amount of time once matter and energy occupied his quantum universe that had been existing forever.

He is still using Freidman's equations for crying out loud. They still show that the so called quantum universe - that had been existing forever - started expanding and cooling when matter and energy were added to it and created space and time. And that was 14 billion years ago.

Which implies what, in your mind? I'm not seeing your "outside force" being employed anywhere in the Ali/Das model.

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

 

[RWNJ]

Maintaining that 'God' is an explanation for the unexplained is faith, not argumentation.

You use the Faith like it's a four letter word. Do you have faith in anything? Faith is based on evidence. I've seen the evidence for the existence of God. I find it as compelling as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow.

 

[RWNJ]

What has caused the expansion of the universe to increase in speed?

Scientists THINK it's dark energy. A mysterious force that cannot be detected in any way.

 

[ding]

Way off. His model still had us in a hot dense state and then expanding and cooling. His quantum universe was forever. But the universe we live in where there is matter and energy, started in a hot dense state and then began to expand and cool immediately and that was ~14 billion years ago.

And?

And he wasn't talking about an infinite amount of time once matter and energy occupied his quantum universe that had been existing forever.

He is still using Freidman's equations for crying out loud. They still show that the so called quantum universe - that had been existing forever - started expanding and cooling when matter and energy were added to it and created space and time. And that was 14 billion years ago.

Which implies what, in your mind? I'm not seeing your "outside force" being employed anywhere in the Ali/Das model.

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

 

[Czernobog]

And?

And he wasn't talking about an infinite amount of time once matter and energy occupied his quantum universe that had been existing forever.

He is still using Freidman's equations for crying out loud. They still show that the so called quantum universe - that had been existing forever - started expanding and cooling when matter and energy were added to it and created space and time. And that was 14 billion years ago.

Which implies what, in your mind? I'm not seeing your "outside force" being employed anywhere in the Ali/Das model.

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

 

[sealybobo]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

We don't even say it created itself. That sounds stupid. We say we don't know.

And evolution is a fact. It's the answer to how Humans and every other creature on earth came to be. But it's not our religion because that still doesn't answer how did life start on earth? Or what cause the big bang.

Our religions is the search for answers. For truth. Facts logic and reason. Don't make up a creator. Saying a god did it answers nothing. It only brings up more questions. So a few thousand years ago men started making claims that this God visited. And you believe that too.

So of course it makes sense that their must be a god even without the evidence in your holy books. Or of course that's what you want to believe because then it sort of corroborates your holy book. Doesn't make your holy book seem so stupid if there "must be" a creator. The only problem is that's one "theory". I put that in quotes because god is not a theory. A theory requires some evidence. All you got is a hypothesis.

 

[sealybobo]

Maintaining that 'God' is an explanation for the unexplained is faith, not argumentation.

You use the Faith like it's a four letter word. Do you have faith in anything? Faith is based on evidence. I've seen the evidence for the existence of God. I find it as compelling as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow.

You sound like a Muslim

Evidence of the Existence of God, and the Wisdom Behind His Creation - islamqa.info

The instinctive evidence that God exists is the strongest of all evidence for those who are not led astray by the devils.

Tangible evidence:

This refers to the things that exist in this universe; we see around us things that exist, such as trees, rocks, mankind, the earth, the heavens, seas, rivers…

If it is asked: these things are so many – who created them and is taking care of them?

The answer is that if these things came into being by accident, spontaneously and with no cause, then there is no one who knows how they were created, and that is one possibility. But there is another possibility, which is that these things created themselves and are taking care of themselves. And there is a third possibility, which is that there is Someone Who created them. When we look at these three possibilities, we find that the first and the second are impossible. If we reject the first and the second, then the third must be the one which is correct, which is that these things have a Creator Who created them, and that Creator is Allah. This is what is stated in the Quran

 

[ding]

And he wasn't talking about an infinite amount of time once matter and energy occupied his quantum universe that had been existing forever.

He is still using Freidman's equations for crying out loud. They still show that the so called quantum universe - that had been existing forever - started expanding and cooling when matter and energy were added to it and created space and time. And that was 14 billion years ago.

Which implies what, in your mind? I'm not seeing your "outside force" being employed anywhere in the Ali/Das model.

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

 

[Czernobog]

Which implies what, in your mind? I'm not seeing your "outside force" being employed anywhere in the Ali/Das model.

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

 

[ding]

All they did was tweak Freidman's solutions to Einsteins General Theory of Realativity to avoid a singularity. Ali/Das's model still starts with a quantum event 14 billion years ago, prior to that event there was no matter or energy present. Only what he calls a quantum universe that he says has always been there forever. The matter and energy that we observe today were not present forever. His model still starts with a hot dense universe that expands and cools. All he did was a math trick and you think that matter and energy defied the second law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy can not last forever with eventually reaching a thermal equilibrium.

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

 

[task0778]

Space and time, matter and energy have a starting point in this universe, about 14 billion years ago. But that does not mean ours is the only universe that ever existed, or the only one that exists today. There's no proof either way, but an open-minded person does not discount any possibility in the absence of data.

 

[Czernobog]

Okay. Unless I badly misunderstand, a "quantum universe" is still a universe of matter, and energy. It is just matter an energy that "blinks" if you will, in and out of existence too quickly, and on a scale too small to actually measure. So to say "There was no matter, or energy present", while simultaneously asserting the existence of a quantum universe isn't exactly accurate. The model, therefore, allows that quantum universe to build up enough potential energy to be the source of the original singularity that resulted in the universe as we know it. As I said, no God necessary.

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

So, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

 

[ding]

The singularity is a mathematical outcome of Freidman's solution to EGToR. The quantum event that led to the creation of space and time occurred 14 billion years ago. From that point in the universe began to expand and cool.

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

 

[Czernobog]

And none of that contradicts what I said....

Except you believe that space and time had no beginning.

That just isn't the case. It began 14 billion years ago.

I said nothing about "space and time". I referred to matter, and energy.

Matter and energy are space and time. One does not exist without the other.

so, what, then. is a quantum universe comprised of?

A false vacuum.

Nothing like the hot and dense state of our universe when space and time were created.

And what is a false vacuum?

 

[Flash]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

To many of them The AGW God is just as much their deity as anything else.

There is absolutely nothing in the experience and scientific knowledge of Mankind that says that a universe could create itself out of nothing. If they have blind faith in that then they believe in magic.

There is something else going on here. Some kind of intelligent design. Too bad some people can't see it.