God is the only rational explanation for the existence of the universe.

[hobelim]

You don't want objective evidence demanded of your god? Then keep your god in the realm of philosophy, and quit trying to assert his existence as an objective reality.

Thats probably a good idea....Trying to prove the existence of God without an accurate knowledge of what you are looking for is like trying to confirm the existence of a bear in the woods without knowing anything about a bear, when its active, what it eats, how big it is, the range of its habitat or what signs such a creature leaves behind that could be followed and will lead you to it. If you did happen to stumble upon it by chance, it would most likely either maul or kill you.

Why not instead start smaller?

The claim is that mosaic law was divinely inspired.

If that is true then there would be evidence of a superior intelligence in those instructions, wisdom that is impossible for human beings to have acquired on their own 6000 years ago. Given known facts about their extremely limited and distorted knowledge of things that should be relatively easy to either prove or disprove... We have the words to examine.

What I have found is just that.

Evidence of wisdom and an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the human mind that surpasses even our own..What causes mental illness and what leads to good mental health.

If you follow me in how the study of scripture should be intelligently approached, you can easily and independently verify this.

Its like the law and scripture in general is a coded extraterrestrial communication. Short sentences like "eat my flesh" encapsulate volumes of information. You have to first decipher the instructions and then do it, to open up a wormhole to their world and make contact.

 

[ding]

Probably not.

Let's just stick with the answer to the question. So, to clarify, we have an area of matter, and energy - but not all of the matter and energy that is found in the universe as we know it - that is unstable, and collapsing. What happens when that unstable false vacuum collapses? What happens to the matter, and energy that is contained therein?

You don't know your own guy's theory?

I'm walking you through, step by step, how the universe that we know could have been formed without any"supernatural" agent. You, understandably, would prefer that we not continue this line of enquiry, as it leads to somewhere other than "God did it".

Good luck with that. Let me help you out there.

The quantum event which created the universe did so following the laws of nature. Laws which existed before space and time. The source of those laws and the cause of the event leads us to a first cause conundrum. The only solution to this is something which is eternal and unchanging.

so says you. However, the model I presented says that doesn't have to be so. And you know it does, which is why you stopped answering my questions. In fact, you stopped answering right at the point you would have had to answer that the matter, and energy would have...wait for it...EXPLODED. You know...like in a Big. Bang.

So says logic. Are you seriously suggesting the creation of space and time followed no rules? Don't be silly.

The creation of space and time followed the rules of quantum mechanics and conservation of energy. Rules that had to have existed before space and time were created.

I stopped answer your questions yesterday because I was busy doing something else.

The model you presented was nothing more than Friedman's model with two tweaks to mathematically avoid the singularity which is nothing more than the equations generating infinities. It has zero basis in physics. It was done for the sole purpose of avoiding infinite answers to the solution. It is nothing more than a mathematical trick.

The model does not change anything. It still starts with a very hot and dense universe that expands and cools. It does not unify quantum mechanics with gravity. It does not alter the implications of the SLoT which preclude an infinite acting universe. It does not predict a cyclical universe. It doesn't do anything that you think it does.

 

[ding]

Only as long as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is/was in play. Maybe the universe has always existed, before that 2nd law came along.

That would only be possible if the universe had been static in its initial state. But that begs the question what made it start to expand and cool.

The first cause conundrum is unavoidable and only has one solution.

You forget that the Second Law of Thermodynamics does allow for zero entropy in a reversible process.

There are points at which irreversible processes happen. Specifically, when when particles decay or annihilate each other as in the early universe. Do this an infinite number of times and the universe will reach thermal equilibrium.

However, that assumes that the universe will expand infinitely. You have evidence to support that assertion? Newton's third law dictates that, at some point, the universe will reach its apex position, and the process will reverse.

In a Multi-verse it's possible for a Universe to expand infinitely making it literally impossible to travel from one solar system to another due to the speed of separation.

That would be true whether there are multiverses or not.

Multiverses only postulate that quantum tunneling event which created this universe could create other universes as well.

I know you were talking about interstellar travel but you can't travel to other multiverses because each universe has no physical boundary so to speak. You can't get to an edge because space time is warped by gravity.

 

[ding]

That would only be possible if the universe had been static in its initial state. But that begs the question what made it start to expand and cool.

The first cause conundrum is unavoidable and only has one solution.

You forget that the Second Law of Thermodynamics does allow for zero entropy in a reversible process.

There are points at which irreversible processes happen. Specifically, when when particles decay or annihilate each other as in the early universe. Do this an infinite number of times and the universe will reach thermal equilibrium.

However, that assumes that the universe will expand infinitely. You have evidence to support that assertion? Newton's third law dictates that, at some point, the universe will reach its apex position, and the process will reverse.

In a Multi-verse it's possible for a Universe to expand infinitely making it literally impossible to travel from one solar system to another due to the speed of separation.

Yeah, well, a multi-verse is a nice theory, but there is no evidence to support it. There is, however, evidence to support, and a mathematically sound model to demonstrate an inflationary model universe.

Ummmm.... an inflationary universe describes the quantum tunneling event, not what happens after space and time are created through inflation. What happens after inflation is still modeled by Friedman's solutions to Eienstein's GToR.

The latest model that you are currently celebrating - in your search to avoid the fact that the universe had a beginning - rests upon the inflationary model. So when you say well, a multi-verse is a nice theory, but there is no evidence to support it you just crapped all over your own position.

 

[ding]

Is anything rational?

For our sake I hope so.

Christian theologians often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse and the fourteenth verse of the prologue is Jesus referred to as the Word, the theme recurs throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[2] Theologian N.T. Wright characterizes "Word" (Logos)as being incomprehensible in human language. He claims that through belief the Logos will transform people with its judgment and mercy. According to Wright, John's view of the Incarnation, of the Word becoming flesh, strikes at the very root of what he terms "the liberal denial...of the idea of God becoming human...." His assessment is that when the "enfleshment" and speaking Word is removed from the center of Christian theology, all that is left is "a relativism whose only moral principle is that there are no moral principles, no words of judgment (because nothing is really wrong, except saying that things are wrong), no words of mercy (because you're all right as you are, so all you need is affirmation)."[3]

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Thats probably a good idea....Trying to prove the existence of God without an accurate knowledge of what you are looking for

Oh, now you know how to prove the existence of god? Amazing! Does the proof come with Clear Coat (a $399 value!) and a free toaster?

 

[idb]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

Why is that the only alternative?
Here's a thought...another option might be..."We just don't know yet, but we'll keep studying and exploring".

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean proof of God.

 

[idb]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

You misunderstand science.
Nothing is ever settled...unlike religion.
Scientists are still hypothesising and studying the creation of the universe.
The same with evolution.

 

[Taz]

Is anything rational?

For our sake I hope so.

Christian theologians often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse and the fourteenth verse of the prologue is Jesus referred to as the Word, the theme recurs throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[2] Theologian N.T. Wright characterizes "Word" (Logos)as being incomprehensible in human language. He claims that through belief the Logos will transform people with its judgment and mercy. According to Wright, John's view of the Incarnation, of the Word becoming flesh, strikes at the very root of what he terms "the liberal denial...of the idea of God becoming human...." His assessment is that when the "enfleshment" and speaking Word is removed from the center of Christian theology, all that is left is "a relativism whose only moral principle is that there are no moral principles, no words of judgment (because nothing is really wrong, except saying that things are wrong), no words of mercy (because you're all right as you are, so all you need is affirmation)."[3]

Then he quotes the bible.

 

[idb]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

To many of them The AGW God is just as much their deity as anything else.

There is absolutely nothing in the experience and scientific knowledge of Mankind that says that a universe could create itself out of nothing. If they have blind faith in that then they believe in magic.

There is something else going on here. Some kind of intelligent design. Too bad some people can't see it.

"It must be God because I can't explain it"

 

[Flash]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

Why is that the only alternative?
Here's a thought...another option might be..."We just don't know yet, but we'll keep studying and exploring".

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean proof of God.

When our understanding increases maybe there will be other options. Right now there are only magic (universe creating itself out of nothing) and intelligent design as the options.

If you know of something else please feel free to educate us.

 

[Flash]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

You misunderstand science.
Nothing is ever settled...unlike religion.
Scientists are still hypothesising and studying the creation of the universe.
The same with evolution.

LOL! Don't these Moon Bats say that it is "settled science" that we have AGW?

Every year we learn more about the universe. That is a good thing. God created a wonderful universe and the more we know about it the better.

 

[Flash]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

To many of them The AGW God is just as much their deity as anything else.

There is absolutely nothing in the experience and scientific knowledge of Mankind that says that a universe could create itself out of nothing. If they have blind faith in that then they believe in magic.

There is something else going on here. Some kind of intelligent design. Too bad some people can't see it.

"It must be God because I can't explain it"

Explain to me how the universe can create itself out of nothing then I will be a believer. Until then intelligent design becomes more credible.

 

[idb]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

Why is that the only alternative?
Here's a thought...another option might be..."We just don't know yet, but we'll keep studying and exploring".

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean proof of God.

When our understanding increases maybe there will be other options. Right now there are only magic (universe creating itself out of nothing) and intelligent design as the options.

If you know of something else please feel free to educate us.

No, there is also the option of "We don't know".
You're desperate for a definitive answer to everything...I understand that...and the concept of God provides that for you.

 

[idb]

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

To many of them The AGW God is just as much their deity as anything else.

There is absolutely nothing in the experience and scientific knowledge of Mankind that says that a universe could create itself out of nothing. If they have blind faith in that then they believe in magic.

There is something else going on here. Some kind of intelligent design. Too bad some people can't see it.

"It must be God because I can't explain it"

Explain to me how the universe can create itself out of nothing then I will be a believer. Until then intelligent design becomes more credible.

As I said...just because we don't understand something you think that the answer must be God.
Fair enough.

 

[idb]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

You misunderstand science.
Nothing is ever settled...unlike religion.
Scientists are still hypothesising and studying the creation of the universe.
The same with evolution.

LOL! Don't these Moon Bats say that it is "settled science" that we have AGW?

Every year we learn more about the universe. That is a good thing. God created a wonderful universe and the more we know about it the better.

Have you noticed how these moonbats are still studying AGW to better understand how it works and what the effects are going to be?

They aren't relying on a book that has already been written to provide all the answers to everything.

 

[Flash]

Only two possibilities:

1. The universe created itself out of nothing.

2. There is some intelligent design to the universe.

The first item is beyond human comprehension and against the Laws of Physics.

I'll go with the second one.

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

Why is that the only alternative?
Here's a thought...another option might be..."We just don't know yet, but we'll keep studying and exploring".

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean proof of God.

When our understanding increases maybe there will be other options. Right now there are only magic (universe creating itself out of nothing) and intelligent design as the options.

If you know of something else please feel free to educate us.

No, there is also the option of "We don't know".
You're desperate for a definitive answer to everything...I understand that...and the concept of God provides that for you.

Of course we don't know.

In the meantime we can speculate on how this universe came into existence.

If you want to believe in the magic theory then go right ahead. To me there being something out their beyond our comprehension seems a little more reasonable than the magic crap.

I suspect that humans will die out as a species long before we figure out how we got here. In the meantime I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. It seems more reasonable than the giant turtle theory or that silly magic theory.

If you come up with something else let me know.

 

[Flash]

Fair enough.
"I don't understand therefore...God"

It stands to reason.

When the alternative is believing in magic then yes.

If the universe created itself out of absolute nothing then that is pretty darn magical, isn't it? Like the greatest magical tick of all time. Houdini would even be amazed at that.

I find it hilarious that these fools reject a Creator, yet believe that the universe created itself. No logic involved in that. They claim that Christians engage in "blind faith" while doing the same thing themselves. Make no mistake. Evolution is their religion. It's high priests are Darwin, Dawkins and Hawking. Their god is the devil. The father of lies.

You misunderstand science.
Nothing is ever settled...unlike religion.
Scientists are still hypothesising and studying the creation of the universe.
The same with evolution.

LOL! Don't these Moon Bats say that it is "settled science" that we have AGW?

Every year we learn more about the universe. That is a good thing. God created a wonderful universe and the more we know about it the better.

Have you noticed how these moonbats are still studying AGW to better understand how it works and what the effects are going to be?

They aren't relying on a book that has already been written to provide all the answers to everything.

Not according to the stupid Moon Bats that I have heard railing about it being settled science and that if you disagree then you should be burned at the stake for heresy.

Speaking of religion this AGW scam has become a religion for the extreme far Left environmental wackos, hasn't it?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If you know of something else please feel free to educate us

Or, the universe was never created, and has always been. Or, "something from nothing" is not actually always "magic". There's two, with very little effort.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In the meantime I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. It seems more reasonable than the giant turtle theory or that silly magic

Uh... A magical sky wizard seems more reasonable than magic?

Ha...ooooookay!