God needs a super-natural visit today

[The Irish Ram]

What TRUTH?!?

There's no truth in the ancient stories, just opinions. When it comes to the questions of origins and after-life, OPINIONS IS ALL THERE IS. Death remains a one-way ticket punched only once.

You want truth? Here's the historic truth - The New Testament was based on oral traditions and STORIES, written at least 40 years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth, and written by people under political and religious duress at the time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=new...&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1470&bih=775#imgdii=_
Bible Timeline

I simply do not believe that Jesus walked out of his tomb. No matter what kind of 'visions' Saul/Paul had about the events some 40+ years later.

Fool me once...​

Paul converted by epileptic fit

St Paul converted by epileptic fit, suggests BBC - Telegraph


Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul's ecstatic visions. Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy.

St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy.

Cool. Guno provided evidence that Paul's ride to Damascus isn't a fairytale but that it actually happened. He's a bit mixed up about exactly what happened on that ride and exactly how Paul converted to Christianity but his confusion can be clarified by reading the Bible's (God's Word) account of the event:

Acts 9:3–9 & 13–19

Look at the 1st. line of Guno's post. You'd almost believe it was a statement of fact instead of a mere suggestion, or an attempt to explain the event. How quickly some are willing to accept data 2,000 years after the fact.
I want proof from eyewitnesses to the seizure.... < read that last sentence with a whinny sing songy voice.

 

[AntiParty]

He did pop in. We crucified Him.

I'm curious why he hasn't popped in since there were camera's to perform a super-natural event. People record everything today.

One thing is for certain, people use to exaggerate stories because there was no TV or Radio even.

God did MANY super-natural things according to man. (and not through Jesus, as you stated)

So it should be easy for him to restore faith today through a supernatural event. He has the power.

Everything new seen in Christianity today has been through David Koresh and Bill O'Reilly who both stated, "god speaks to me".

 

[Hollie]

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God. Their His words written by the hands of His faithful servants. Sorry you don't like that but there's nothing I can personally do to help you.

Umm, sorry, no. The various bibles were written by men with no help, guidance, booming voices, apparitions or visitations from the gods.

Only you can help yourself confront a reality based worldview.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Chirst's church is the "body of Christ." The body of Christ defends His Word. Start worshiping.

Not exactly the exposed hand of a Deity, now is it.

First Deity to defend His Book. Followers defend by definition.

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

The New Testament is a popular piece of literature... The Koran even more so.

Does 'popularity' equate to 'truth' now? If popularity is the litmus test for a religion, the Muslims have the market cornered for worshiping The God of Abraham.



The New Testament was written between 40 and 100 years AFTER the events it describes.

Can you imagine the political power one could tap into if given the opportunity to document the assassination of Dr. Martin L King 40 years after the event?



Obviously I can no more disprove The New Testament than anyone else can prove it. There is no proof or truth here... All we in the here and now can have regarding the events described in ancient stories like The New Testament, The Koran, and The Torah is an opinion of them based on the evidence.

If proof one way or the other were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation but,

If something is too good to be true... it most likely is.​

 

[jillian]

First Deity to defend His Holy Book in the here and now, gets my worship.

Jus' sayin'

Chirst's church is the "body of Christ." The body of Christ defends His Word. Start worshiping.

to Christians.

not to anyone else. once you accept that, perhaps you'll be more respectful of others.

nor do non-Christians believe they need to be "saved" or "educated" or proselytized to. we think we're right about what we believe, too.

 

[AVG-JOE]

A war that has the capability of annihilating all life on earth. Some one 2000 years before the event happens even told us who, what, where, and when.

I can prove you wrong. I'm game.

Prove?!?

Proof requires repeatability under controlled conditions.

​

Then repeat evolution. Start with the simple eye and turn it into a complex one that actually has the ability to work.

Can't be done. As I've stated... all we can have is faith in our own opinions of the events based on the evidence that we CAN see.

On the one hand we have the ancient stories - on the other hand we have our physical world, our history and basic Monkey psychology and physiology.

Based on the evidence that I can see, compare, touch, taste and feel, I choose evolution as a plausible explanation for Monkeys and our World. To me the ancient stories, as an explanation of our origins just don't fit the evidence of our history. If I can't accept the ancient stories explanation of origins, I damn sure am going to look at the after-life and the conflicting methods of 'salvation' that they describe with a high degree of skepticism.

As mine is mine alone to make, your choice and faith investment is yours, and I respect that, even if we disagree.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Let me ask you this Joe, If you can repeat a process, then that means success? Does the same rule apply in reverse? I mean, if you can't repeat it does that mean the process fails?
You contend that the Bible was written by man. If you can repeat the process those men used, that would mean your contention is possible. If you can't would it convince you that man couldn't be the author? Are you at least as smart as a fisher man, a tax collector?

My contention is that there is nothing special about the famous earth Monkey named Abraham, father of the Jews. We all have a voice in our head discussing life with us - Abraham called his 'God' and told his family camp-fire tales about his conversations, which they then preserved and expounded on.


If Abraham could see the conflict that surrounds his God and the three ancient Holy Books that coalesced from his camp-fire stories, do you think he might have a regret or two? After all, Ishmael and Isaac have more in common than they do in conflict.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God. Their His words written by the hands of His faithful servants. Sorry you don't like that but there's nothing I can personally do to help you.

If you could prove that, this conversation would be moot.

Since Inspiration can't be proven or disproved, and God Himself is unwilling or unable to step in and tell us which of the ancient stories we should put our trust in, the only thing left is our varied opinions of the matter based on the evidence that we can see and feel, and you and I apparently disagree on the matter.

Beer? ​

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Jesus Christ's Tomb and Crucifixion Site Rediscovered

In you're interested.

Some force sheared off solid metal pegs that held a massive stone in front of a tomb that was carved out of the rock.

 

[DriftingSand]

Not exactly the exposed hand of a Deity, now is it.

First Deity to defend His Book. Followers defend by definition.

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

The New Testament is a popular piece of literature... The Koran even more so.

Does 'popularity' equate to 'truth' now? If popularity is the litmus test for a religion, the Muslims have the market cornered for worshiping The God of Abraham.



The New Testament was written between 40 and 100 years AFTER the events it describes.

Can you imagine the political power one could tap into if given the opportunity to document the assassination of Dr. Martin L King 40 years after the event?



Obviously I can no more disprove The New Testament than anyone else can prove it. There is no proof or truth here... All we in the here and now can have regarding the events described in ancient stories like The New Testament, The Koran, and The Torah is an opinion of them based on the evidence.

If proof one way or the other were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation but,

If something is too good to be true... it most likely is.​

I didn't say "popularity." I said it has lasted against all odds for centuries. We already know that it's not popular because it requires mankind to reach for a standard that he isn't comfortable with. Nobody wants anyone or anything messing with his comfort zone.

If I, at 53, decide to write about my early childhood does that make my autobiography untrue? Much of the New Testament is made up of letters written by Paul. Those letters were written the moment they were written (obviously). There are still authors today writing about events that took place decades or even centuries ago. So "when" an important document is written doesn't detract from its veracity.

So, we will all just have to settle on our own acceptance or rejection of the level of factual evidence provided by the Bible. On faith (as well as some secular evidence) I believe it to be 100% true. All of it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Consider.

&#8220;When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.&#8221; (Luke 21:20.)

&#8220;When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

&#8220;Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

&#8220;Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

&#8220;Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.&#8221; (Matt. 24:15&#8211;18.)

That was Jesus telling his follower Jerusalem would be laid to waste after his death. He told them they could flee the devastation only if they took IMMEDIATE ACTION &#8220;Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house"

In 70AD Titus and the Legions fell on Jerusalem and didn't leave a stone standing. Josephus said that 1.1MM were killed and 100,000 taken captive. The spoils from Jerusalem were used to build the Colosseum in Rome.

If there was no warning, how could the Faithful have know to flee to Pella?

 

[The Irish Ram]

He did pop in. We crucified Him.

I'm curious why he hasn't popped in since there were camera's to perform a super-natural event. People record everything today.

One thing is for certain, people use to exaggerate stories because there was no TV or Radio even.

God did MANY super-natural things according to man. (and not through Jesus, as you stated)

So it should be easy for him to restore faith today through a supernatural event. He has the power.

Everything new seen in Christianity today has been through David Koresh and Bill O'Reilly who both stated, "god speaks to me".

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No need for upgrades, He was right the first time. It would be as easy for Him to show Himself, as rolling up one of the dimensions He created, and letting us look beyond the dimensions we are bound by. And He is going to, right after the Age of the Gentile is over.
He's sorry your belief is based on your watch and not His watch. Or that your belief is based on a lack of understanding of His Ages and their length of time. Or that you didn't know about His promise to the Gentiles. It is a specific time, for a specific group, lodged between His last appearance and His next one.

He has though, given you access to His timeline and when to expect His Son's return. And includes technology in His signs to you. One is that His word would be preached world wide. A feat that required satellite technology. And, you will be able to sit in front of your TV and watch 2 of God's prophets, killed in the street and left where they died, while reporters keep their camera's rolling for 3 1/2 days to see if the prophesy of them coming back to life really happens. So stay tuned.

There are other signs He gave. An Israel. An Israel NOT under the control of the Gentile. So, look for that.
That's a biggie, because by OUR timepieces, The generation that sees that, will not pass away before He comes back.

And you're not stuck with Koresh, or O'Riley or Anderson Cooper, or Billy Graham. You have His Word.

 

[DriftingSand]

Paul converted by epileptic fit

St Paul converted by epileptic fit, suggests BBC - Telegraph


Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul's ecstatic visions. Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy.

St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy.

Cool. Guno provided evidence that Paul's ride to Damascus isn't a fairytale but that it actually happened. He's a bit mixed up about exactly what happened on that ride and exactly how Paul converted to Christianity but his confusion can be clarified by reading the Bible's (God's Word) account of the event:

Acts 9:3–9 & 13–19

Look at the 1st. line of Guno's post. You'd almost believe it was a statement of fact instead of a mere suggestion, or an attempt to explain the event. How quickly some are willing to accept data 2,000 years after the fact.
I want proof from eyewitnesses to the seizure.... < read that last sentence with a whinny sing songy voice.

Facts are facts when guno wants facts to be facts but facts are not facts when guno doesn't want facts to be facts. See how THAT works?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God.

Nonsense.

Men can’t be ‘inspired’ by something that doesn’t exist as perceived by theists.

As already correctly noted several times: the bible was written by men, where its teachings and dogma are suspect accordingly.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God. Their His words written by the hands of His faithful servants. Sorry you don't like that but there's nothing I can personally do to help you.

If you could prove that, this conversation would be moot.

Since Inspiration can't be proven or disproved, and God Himself is unwilling or unable to step in and tell us which of the ancient stories we should put our trust in, the only thing left is our varied opinions of the matter based on the evidence that we can see and feel, and you and I apparently disagree on the matter.

Beer? ​

It's ok not to agree on a matter, but if you ask a question, or raise a point, then answers and counter points may come your way. I promise I will never drag you down to the alter and force you to change your mind. I haven't the power or the will, but I can give you what God has given me. Biblical understanding to balance your decision making process. ALL I ask for is an open mind.

Here is an ancient story:
Homer tells us in his story, that his hero would run into some sirens and would have to be tied to his ship because they were so tempting...

Here is an ancient story from God:
When the day comes that my Son is killed, I will stop the sun from shinning. At noon. Write that down on something so when it happens, they'll know I was the one that told you history before it happens.

There. There are two ancient stories. How do they differ? Two ways. The second one happened. And whoever told the monkey to write it down, had complete control over the sun. The sun did what the author of that monkey tale told it to do, exactly when it was told to do it.

Most of the NT was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
That is within 50 years after the events happened!
If I put out 24,000 official reports that Pres. Kennedy died when the roller coaster seat he was in broke loose and careened to the ground, how many people who saw the same assassination that I actually saw, would step up and call me a liar?

Scholars didn't debate whether or not the sun lost light at noon. It happened. They saw it happen. They debated how it happened. You can read their conclusions/ theories. Do you see the difference in the 2 ancient stories?

And yes, you can prove inspired by......... I can show you God's signature throughout the Bible. He signed His work. You on the other hand, an intelligent man with access to paper and pencil cannot duplicate the Heptadic structure, that you insist is nothing more than the accomplishment of a simple tax collector 2,000 years ago. By your own standards you should be able to duplicate what Matthew did. If you can then there is your proof. It was indeed the work of mere mortals.

Either you are right, or I am. Either man wrote it or God did. Let's test it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God.

Nonsense.

Men can&#8217;t be &#8216;inspired&#8217; by something that doesn&#8217;t exist as perceived by theists.

As already correctly noted several times: the bible was written by men, where its teachings and dogma are suspect accordingly.

If that is true then there is no one strapping bombs on their bodies and yelling, "For Allah." They're nothing if not inspired.
God wrote, man penned. Men can't tell the future.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

The New Testament is a popular piece of literature... The Koran even more so.

Does 'popularity' equate to 'truth' now? If popularity is the litmus test for a religion, the Muslims have the market cornered for worshiping The God of Abraham.



The New Testament was written between 40 and 100 years AFTER the events it describes.

Can you imagine the political power one could tap into if given the opportunity to document the assassination of Dr. Martin L King 40 years after the event?



Obviously I can no more disprove The New Testament than anyone else can prove it. There is no proof or truth here... All we in the here and now can have regarding the events described in ancient stories like The New Testament, The Koran, and The Torah is an opinion of them based on the evidence.

If proof one way or the other were possible, we wouldn't be having this conversation but,

If something is too good to be true... it most likely is.​

I didn't say "popularity." I said it has lasted against all odds for centuries. We already know that it's not popular because it requires mankind to reach for a standard that he isn't comfortable with. Nobody wants anyone or anything messing with his comfort zone.

If I, at 53, decide to write about my early childhood does that make my autobiography untrue? Much of the New Testament is made up of letters written by Paul. Those letters were written the moment they were written (obviously). There are still authors today writing about events that took place decades or even centuries ago. So "when" an important document is written doesn't detract from its veracity.

So, we will all just have to settle on our own acceptance or rejection of the level of factual evidence provided by the Bible. On faith (as well as some secular evidence) I believe it to be 100% true. All of it.

Come on now... writing about something that happened to you a few years ago is not the same as writing about events that you heard about which happened to someone else 50 years ago.

And certainly Paul wrote from first hand experience regarding his visions his plans and his admonitions to the church, but the stories of the life and ministry of Jesus are embellished tales of passion at best, the biggest joke being the red letter editions with the words of Christ in red.

The words purported to have been uttered by Christ weren't committed to paper and preserved as history until 50 years after the events! How can those stories possibly be taken seriously?!?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Consider.

“When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” (Luke 21:20.)

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

“Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

“Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

“Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.” (Matt. 24:15–18.)

That was Jesus telling his follower Jerusalem would be laid to waste after his death. He told them they could flee the devastation only if they took IMMEDIATE ACTION “Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house"

In 70AD Titus and the Legions fell on Jerusalem and didn't leave a stone standing. Josephus said that 1.1MM were killed and 100,000 taken captive. The spoils from Jerusalem were used to build the Colosseum in Rome.

If there was no warning, how could the Faithful have know to flee to Pella?

Let me guess.....

Obama, right?​

 

[sealybobo]

If god can do anything, he should peek through the clouds and say, "Yea, guys and gals, I'm real" and that would be enough.

Is he not powerful enough or my expectations too high?

No god exists. There were 997 other gods that have come before and after jewish christians and muslims. Like the greek gods, jehova's or mormons. They are all made up. Notice how god was so involved in making the earth and talking to adam then noah then moses then jesus but then he hasn't talked to anyone since? Oh wait he talked to Joseph Smith in 1800. How convenient that today we have to rely on unbelievable stories. Yes it takes faith/stupidity to think it through and still believe.

Of course we have no idea but to interject an imaginary man who cares about us but will also send you to hell if you are bad, or don't believe in stories that can't possible be true. The arc, people living 800 years, virgin birth all scientifically impossible.

If there is a god, he wouldn't be hiding from us or testing us. Primitive man/ape believed that shit but you don't have to.

But again, agnostic atheist is the most logical position to take. Who knows what's on the other side of black holes. Bible thumpers sure don't.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God. Their His words written by the hands of His faithful servants. Sorry you don't like that but there's nothing I can personally do to help you.

If you could prove that, this conversation would be moot.

Since Inspiration can't be proven or disproved, and God Himself is unwilling or unable to step in and tell us which of the ancient stories we should put our trust in, the only thing left is our varied opinions of the matter based on the evidence that we can see and feel, and you and I apparently disagree on the matter.

Beer? ​

It's ok not to agree on a matter, but if you ask a question, or raise a point, then answers and counter points may come your way. I promise I will never drag you down to the alter and force you to change your mind. I haven't the power or the will, but I can give you what God has given me. Biblical understanding to balance your decision making process. ALL I ask for is an open mind.

Here is an ancient story:
Homer tells us in his story, that his hero would run into some sirens and would have to be tied to his ship because they were so tempting...

Here is an ancient story from God:
When the day comes that my Son is killed, I will stop the sun from shinning. At noon. Write that down on something so when it happens, they'll know I was the one that told you history before it happens.

There. There are two ancient stories. How do they differ? Two ways. The second one happened. And whoever told the monkey to write it down, had complete control over the sun. The sun did what the author of that monkey tale told it to do, exactly when it was told to do it.

Most of the NT was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
That is within 50 years after the events happened!
If I put out 24,000 official reports that Pres. Kennedy died when the roller coaster seat he was in broke loose and careened to the ground, how many people who saw the same assassination that I actually saw, would step up and call me a liar?

Scholars didn't debate whether or not the sun lost light at noon. It happened. They saw it happen. They debated how it happened. You can read their conclusions/ theories. Do you see the difference in the 2 ancient stories?

And yes, you can prove inspired by......... I can show you God's signature throughout the Bible. He signed His work. You on the other hand, an intelligent man with access to paper and pencil cannot duplicate the Heptadic structure, that you insist is nothing more than the accomplishment of a simple tax collector 2,000 years ago. By your own standards you should be able to duplicate what Matthew did. If you can then there is your proof. It was indeed the work of mere mortals.

Either you are right, or I am. Either man wrote it or God did. Let's test it.

As tempting as a test for 'Inspired' ancient texts sounds, let's not and say we did.

Neither of us is going to be changing our mind, no?​