God needs a super-natural visit today

[AVG-JOE]

Read the Book of Mormon. It provides a way for you to learn for yourself whether it's true. The Lord will prove it to you. Take the challenge, what do you have to lose?

I can honestly say that I've not read the entire Book of Mormon, but I know it's history and basic story.

Thanks, but pass. ​

Shame The Devil and tell the truth I'd pass on Mormonism simply for it's association with The God of Abraham, as described in The Torah, The New Testament and The Koran, but I do know a bit about Joseph Smith's history and his writings and thoughts.

​

You are the one who wanted God to defend His Holy Book. The Book of Mormon has a promise that God will do just that if you follow the promise. Makes me think you don't really want God to prove anything.

God proving Himself. I won't be holding my breath.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If god can do anything, he should peek through the clouds and say, "Yea, guys and gals, I'm real" and that would be enough.

Is he not powerful enough or my expectations too high?

Of course, there is no such thing as ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

But the last thing theists want is proof of ‘god,’ as everyone would become believers, thus destroying the exclusivity of religion.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Except the Children of Israel saw the Pillar of Cloud by day and the Fire of God by night. They saw the miracles. They heard the voice of God and they still disobeyed and fell away. Many of them died in the wilderness. They had everything including the most perfect lawgiver and still failed so when people want to find God on their own merit, these are the footsteps you are following in and the children of Israel who died in the wilderness will be many people's examples.

According to the ancient stories.


It's interesting how thousands of years later those stories can still roll off a keyboard like they were established fact.

`​

From a believer's point of view ... they are established fact. I believe the historical record of Jesus Christ is 100% true and accurate. There's not a soul on earth who can prove me wrong.

Nor anyone or anything that can prove you right.

 

[AVG-JOE]

From a believer's point of view ... they are established fact. I believe the historical record of Jesus Christ is 100% true and accurate. There's not a soul on earth who can prove me wrong.

So?

That opinion and $4 will get you a hot and tasty beverage at Starbuck$. Doesn't mean it happened.

I say that The New Testament is bullshit that was written 70 years after the events by educated people with religious persecution and a political ax to grind, and there's not a soul on earth who can prove me wrong.

Whats next? War?

A war that has the capability of annihilating all life on earth. Some one 2000 years before the event happens even told us who, what, where, and when.

I can prove you wrong. I'm game.

Prove?!?

Proof requires repeatability under controlled conditions.

​

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

First Deity to defend His Holy Book in the here and now, gets my worship.

Jus' sayin'

Read the Book of Mormon. It provides a way for you to learn for yourself whether it's true. The Lord will prove it to you. Take the challenge, what do you have to lose?

All religious texts were written by men; religion is a creation of man, as is ‘god.’

And all religious texts reflect the ignorance, hate, and fear of man - one should 'believe' at his own risk.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

People have been murdered for claiming to have seen Bigfoot and Nessie?

Who knew?

People have falsified claims to Bigfoot and Nessie as people have falsified claims to other objects, events and circumstances and for many reasons.

Golden plates, Books of the Dead, contact with angels, etc. How curious that there is so often a resounding lack of evidence for these claims.

Who knew? Well, we know because fraud feeds on fear and superstition.

There is plenty of evidence. The Book of Mormon...

Incorrect.

Subjective religious text written by men cannot be used as ‘evidence’ that the dogma it propagates is ‘true.’

 

[RandomVariable]

God talked to me. You believe that? Of course not. And if God show you a sign would you believe your own eyes? Would you give credit to God? Which God. Asking for a sign from God is meaningless. Unless you're me and get tormented for years. Would you like that? I don't think so. You don't see a sign because you don't want to see a sign.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Truth is nobody can tell what Plato thought because he had been dead for 1,000 years before it was written, by author unknown, in Constantinople, who said that is what Plato said. There are seven copies of unknown's work.

Aristotle? Same thing. His works were put together about 1,400 years after He died. We have 49 of those copies. The old et tu Brute? 1,000 years after that was supposed to have happened. Of that chronicle of Julius Caesar there are 10 copies that have survived.
Many historians readily accept the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Thucydides, and Caesar. Have you ever doubted the authenticity of any of them if you have had the opportunity to read what has been attributed to them?

The New Testament, on the other hand, was written between 40-100 AD and our earliest copies of the New Testament manuscripts are from the 130s (less than 100 years) and we have 5,000 Greek copies, 10,000 Latin copies and 9,300 copies in other languages. Even by your chart, that puts most of the originals well with in eye witness range.

Within 100 years of the life and death of Christ, the NT survives with the same context, 5,000 copies, 10,000 copies, and 9,300 copies of what people living in that time saw and heard.

Here is what that means. You have 24,000. documents and a variety of originals, and the Dead Sea Scrolls for you to verify what you read in your King James is as authentic as when it came out of the eyewitness who experienced it.

Go back farther in history if you like. Read Ezekiel from the paper it is written on and then go read the same thing on the stones he carved it into and was buried with. No tampering.

I can give you historical accounts of the events that took place during and after the crucifixion from Jews, or Secular. With 0 to gain and much to lose.

If your questions are not more about taunting and less about inquiry, we can start verifying stories.
You know the one where Amos was talking to God, and God said that on that day, well here:

Amos 8:9 “And on that day,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Amos died about 800 years before it happened. His work was documented and read long prior to the fulfillment of this prophesy.

That it happened isn't refuted. 52 years later, the explanation for the phenomenon was still being debated. Which explanation would you like? The Jew's, the Roman's, philosophers, Gentile's, historians?

What man could have known that 800 years from then the sun would lose it's light? At noon? Because of the death of the Lord, no less......... How often does that happen, at noon.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So?

That opinion and $4 will get you a hot and tasty beverage at Starbuck$. Doesn't mean it happened.

I say that The New Testament is bullshit that was written 70 years after the events by educated people with religious persecution and a political ax to grind, and there's not a soul on earth who can prove me wrong.

Whats next? War?

A war that has the capability of annihilating all life on earth. Some one 2000 years before the event happens even told us who, what, where, and when.

I can prove you wrong. I'm game.

Prove?!?

Proof requires repeatability under controlled conditions.

​

Then repeat evolution. Start with the simple eye and turn it into a complex one that actually has the ability to work.

 

[DriftingSand]

First Deity to defend His Holy Book in the here and now, gets my worship.

Jus' sayin'

Chirst's church is the "body of Christ." The body of Christ defends His Word. Start worshiping.

Not exactly the exposed hand of a Deity, now is it.

First Deity to defend His Book. Followers defend by definition.

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

 

[DriftingSand]

God talked to me. You believe that? Of course not. And if God show you a sign would you believe your own eyes? Would you give credit to God? Which God. Asking for a sign from God is meaningless. Unless you're me and get tormented for years. Would you like that? I don't think so. You don't see a sign because you don't want to see a sign.

Like any language one has to know how to read the signs. God speaks to us in many ways and through many people. Sometimes we can just open a book, or a magazine, or the Bible to a point in the publication that has relevance to something we're going through at a particular moment.

When I first asked for God's help (when I was in the throes of deep alcoholism) I simply asked for help. 2 or 3 days later, a coworker approached me and asked if I wanted to go to an AA meeting. It didn't dawn on me for 2 or more years that God had immediately answered that initial prayer.

Christ often says "for those who have the ears to hear and the eyes to see let him see and hear" (paraphrased). He, of course, is speaking of spiritual eyes and ears. It's the ability to discern meanings that transcend the physical world or the tangible world.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Let me ask you this Joe, If you can repeat a process, then that means success? Does the same rule apply in reverse? I mean, if you can't repeat it does that mean the process fails?
You contend that the Bible was written by man. If you can repeat the process those men used, that would mean your contention is possible. If you can't would it convince you that man couldn't be the author? Are you at least as smart as a fisher man, a tax collector?

 

[Hollie]

Chirst's church is the "body of Christ." The body of Christ defends His Word. Start worshiping.

Not exactly the exposed hand of a Deity, now is it.

First Deity to defend His Book. Followers defend by definition.

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

 

[RandomVariable]

God talked to me. You believe that? Of course not. And if God show you a sign would you believe your own eyes? Would you give credit to God? Which God. Asking for a sign from God is meaningless. Unless you're me and get tormented for years. Would you like that? I don't think so. You don't see a sign because you don't want to see a sign.

Like any language one has to know how to read the signs. God speaks to us in many ways and through many people. Sometimes we can just open a book, or a magazine, or the Bible to a point in the publication that has relevance to something we're going through at a particular moment.

When I first asked for God's help (when I was in the throes of deep alcoholism) I simply asked for help. 2 or 3 days later, a coworker approached me and asked if I wanted to go to an AA meeting. It didn't dawn on me for 2 or more years that God had immediately answered that initial prayer.

Christ often says "for those who have the ears to hear and the eyes to see let him see and hear" (paraphrased). He, of course, is speaking of spiritual eyes and ears. It's the ability to discern meanings that transcend the physical world or the tangible world.

I think that is a lot to it. One receives a sign and does not comprehend and then ask for a voice from the sky. The signs I have received have been very specific at times. It is only through the grace of God that I still have the opportunity to be His servant. My path has become much more defined lately but I still have far to go. I don't like the idea of being a member of Christianity but I follow the signs wherever they lead. That is I guess what they call faith. One thought is what if everyone on the message board became a Christian. Presumably that is the idea. Expanding the concept to the reality is never what one expects it to be.

 

[guno]

People have been murdered for claiming to have seen Bigfoot and Nessie?

Who knew?

People have falsified claims to Bigfoot and Nessie as people have falsified claims to other objects, events and circumstances and for many reasons.

Golden plates, Books of the Dead, contact with angels, etc. How curious that there is so often a resounding lack of evidence for these claims.

Who knew? Well, we know because fraud feeds on fear and superstition.

There is plenty of evidence. The Book of Mormon is 512 pages of evidence. It exists. It had to come from somewhere and the attempts to explain it away man made fraud are pretty weak arguments. You can hold you. You can read it. You could examine it for yourself. Moreover, you can ask the Lord whether it's true.

You just choose not to examine it.

Interestingly enough I just read an article that seems relevant to this discussion:

Defending the Faith: Too many credible gospel witnesses to believe they all lied | Deseret News

Joseph Smith is a very interesting person. Particularly because he didn't just tell people he spoke with the Lord with only his word for it. But because he invited other people to speak with the Lord as well. He invited people to go to the Lord and receive their own witness to the work.

And the more of his writings I see, the less I find credible the idea that he was lying. He sincerely believed everything he taught. His private writings, the ones never intended for publication as completely consistent with what he taught. And after almost 200 years, there are no credible alternatives to his story.

I invite you again to read the Book of Mormon for yourself. I invite everyone to. I've read it countless times and I can tell you that the Spirit has told me that the Book of Mormon is true. And like I said, you don't have to take Joseph's word for it, or my own. You can read it for yourself and ask the Lord and He will reveal it to you.

 

[guno]

According to the ancient stories.


It's interesting how thousands of years later those stories can still roll off a keyboard like they were established fact.

`​

The Truth is like that

What TRUTH?!?

There's no truth in the ancient stories, just opinions. When it comes to the questions of origins and after-life, OPINIONS IS ALL THERE IS. Death remains a one-way ticket punched only once.

You want truth? Here's the historic truth - The New Testament was based on oral traditions and STORIES, written at least 40 years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth, and written by people under political and religious duress at the time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=new...&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1470&bih=775#imgdii=_
Bible Timeline

I simply do not believe that Jesus walked out of his tomb. No matter what kind of 'visions' Saul/Paul had about the events some 40+ years later.

Fool me once...​

Paul converted by epileptic fit

St Paul converted by epileptic fit, suggests BBC - Telegraph


Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul's ecstatic visions. Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1032067/

 

[guno]

Pagan origins of the christ man god myth

The Pagan Origins of Jesus Christ and Christianity

 

[DriftingSand]

Not exactly the exposed hand of a Deity, now is it.

First Deity to defend His Book. Followers defend by definition.

Truth is it's own defense. Our Deity, Christ, provided a written letter for all to see -the Bible. For centuries this letter has been under constant attack from all manner of deniers and naysayers and yet it's still seems to thrive and make it's way all around the globe in spite of its detractors. Dictators, atheists, Communists, etc. have gone so far as to ban its use and its very existence and yet -- there it is for all to see, still yet. So ... apparently it has some sort of defense else it would have fallen out of favor and use a long time ago.

God really does work in mysterious ways.

If you had bothered to study history, you would have learned that hey-Zeus wrote none of hype bibles. He left no written letter.

The entire Bible is written by the inspiration of God. Their His words written by the hands of His faithful servants. Sorry you don't like that but there's nothing I can personally do to help you.

 

[DriftingSand]

The Truth is like that

What TRUTH?!?

There's no truth in the ancient stories, just opinions. When it comes to the questions of origins and after-life, OPINIONS IS ALL THERE IS. Death remains a one-way ticket punched only once.

You want truth? Here's the historic truth - The New Testament was based on oral traditions and STORIES, written at least 40 years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth, and written by people under political and religious duress at the time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=new...&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1470&bih=775#imgdii=_
Bible Timeline

I simply do not believe that Jesus walked out of his tomb. No matter what kind of 'visions' Saul/Paul had about the events some 40+ years later.

Fool me once...​

Paul converted by epileptic fit

St Paul converted by epileptic fit, suggests BBC - Telegraph


Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul's ecstatic visions. Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy.

St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy.

Cool. Guno provided evidence that Paul's ride to Damascus isn't a fairytale but that it actually happened. He's a bit mixed up about exactly what happened on that ride and exactly how Paul converted to Christianity but his confusion can be clarified by reading the Bible's (God's Word) account of the event:

Acts 9:3–9 & 13–19

 

[PostmodernProph]

Pagan origins of the christ man god myth

The Pagan Origins of Jesus Christ and Christianity

lol....I love it when someone posts this crap.....

here's the first of your links claims....

In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god Osiris-Dionysus (left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of Jesus on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted Jesus as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross.

Osiris is a parallel to the crucifixion of Christ?...well lets see....
all quotes from Ancient Egypt: the Mythology - The Story of Isis and Osiris
Jesus incarnated so that he could be crucified and save his creation from their sins.
why did Osiris die?

But Seth the Evil One, their brother, envied Osiris and hated Isis. The more the people loved and praised Osiris, the more Seth hated him; and the more good he did and the happier mankind became, the stronger grew Seth's desire to kill his brother and rule in his place.

Jesus was crucified on a cross....
Osiris? He was tricked into climbing into a cedar chest by Seth and it ended up in the bottom of the ocean....Isis recovered it and brought it home with Osiris still dead inside....when Seth found out....

At the sight hatred and anger came upon him in a red cloud, and he raged like a panther of the south. He tore open the chest, took the body of Osiris, and rent it into fourteen pieces which, by his divine strength, he scattered up and down the whole length of the Nile so that the crocodiles might eat them.

Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven....
Osiris?
Isis again started searching and eventually found everything except his penis....

Slowly, piece by piece, Isis recovered the fragments of Osiris. And wherever she did so, she formed by magic the likeness of his whole body and caused the priests to build a shrine and perform his funeral rites. And so there were thirteen places in Egypt which claimed to be the burial place of Osiris. In this way also she made it harder for Seth to meddle further with the body of the dead god.

and so the story ends with Osiris dead....

so, no sacrificial incarnation, no crucifixion, no resurrection.....
interesting "parallel"......

the rest of your link's claims are similar bullshit....if you would care to defend its claims I will destroy more of them for you....