God of the Gaps (well then, how did...")

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Did life exist before the universe?

Before our universe? Before all that there is? Which?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Did life exist before the universe?

In the context of the entire universe being alive? Or not?

 

[scruffy]

There's no debate.

Even a high school educated person knows you can't get an explosion from nothing.

You didn't ask about the explosion.

You asked about what happened afterwards.

Why is this concept so difficult?

 

[ding]

Before our universe? Before all that there is? Which?

Sure, before our universe. Was whatever it was that brought forth this universe alive too?

 

[abu afak]

There's no debate.

Even a high school educated person knows you can't get an explosion from nothing.

BUT Again, you can create a god from nothing just because we don't know... Yet.

`

 

[ding]

In the context of the entire universe being alive? Or not?

In the context of what you said in post #1040.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Sure, before our universe. Was whatever it was that brought forth this universe alive too?

Maybe? Maybe there's a bigger reality we cannot fathom that birthed out universe. Maybe also others. Maybe these universes are all just local fluctuations on a larger surface.

Maybe there was infinite time for this membrane both before and after the birth and death of 'our' universe

I honestly think we might not ever be able to answer such questions, other than with philosophical arguments. We are limited by this weird speed limit our universe seems to have.

 

[DukeU]

You didn't ask about the explosion.

You asked about what happened afterwards.

Why is this concept so difficult?

You said life originated from big bang, I'm simply asking what exploded.

It's a simple question.

 

[DukeU]

BUT Again, you can create a god from nothing just because we don't know... Yet.

`

There's your problem right there.

Any god that was created, isn't a true God.

 

[ding]

Maybe? Maybe there's a bigger reality we cannot fathom that birthed out universe. Maybe also others. Maybe these universes are all just local fluctuations on a larger surface.

Maybe there was infinite time for this membrane both before and after the birth and death of 'our' universe

I honestly think we might not ever be able to answer such questions, other than with philosophical arguments. We are limited by this weird speed limit our universe seems to have.

It seems to me that if you believe that everything is alive in this universe that that would have to apply to everything. Even what existed before or outside our universe.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You said life originated from big bang, I'm simply asking what exploded.

It's a simple question.

Spacetime itself.

Scale it down a dimension, and imagine a 2D surface, instead.

The 2D surface starts as the surface of a very tiny bubble. Then the bubble quickly expands, into a large balloon. You are a stickman, living on the 2D surface of the balloon. Think about what your space does, if you're the stickman.

And that's the Big Bang. In one aspect.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It seems to me that if you believe that everything is alive in this universe that that would have to apply to everything. Even what existed before or outside our universe.

Yes, I would agree. That would follow.

 

[scruffy]

You said life originated from big bang, I'm simply asking what exploded.

It's a simple question.

That's a different question.

First you asked where did life originate, and my answer was "same place everything else originated".

If you had asked about the explosion I would have given you a big resounding "I don't know".

I laid out the logic exceedingly clearly in the other thread. Creation remains a valid scientific hypothesis, it's just that it's untestable (at our current level of technology).

But going up against evolution is impossible, there's just too much evidence.

In the other thread I suggested that the mystery is in the explosion, not in what happened afterwards - and I suggested some avenues for making that question testable. If you want to test it, I'm right there with you, I'll support you 100%.

But charlatan math like CE is pushing ain't gonna cut it. That kind of stuff is downright fraudulent and doesn't belong in a scientific discussion.

 

[DukeU]

But charlatan math like CE is pushing ain't gonna cut it. That kind of stuff is downright fraudulent and doesn't belong in a scientific discussion.

Math isn't part of science?

SMH

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Just to toot the horn of brilliant people everywhere:

Our math and understanding of our universe is so good, now, that theoretical evidence is now very compelling. The frontier of cosmology is theoretical physics. Advancing solid theory is needed first to gain access to the limited resources that are our observational tools. Our observatories, LIGO, etc.

 

[scruffy]

Math isn't part of science?

SMH

You don't understand. Maybe because you don't want to.

In the other thread I showed very clearly and beyond any shadow of a doubt how biology works. It does NOT work by linear assembly.

I gave an example of the evolution of the tRNA responsible for polyglycine, which is the earliest known example of structural stability in a biological cell. I showed in detail how the assembly occurs, from repeating fragments of short chain amino acids.

CE's math is simply WRONG, it doesn't apply and it demonstrates a clear and unmistakable ignorance of the subject matter.

You're in a scientific discussion, you're expected to have at least "a" clue about the subject matter. If you don't, go hit the books and don't come back till you do.

There is no linear assembly in evolution, not one scientist EVER in the entire history of biology suggested there is. Except for charlatans with an agenda. There is ZERO evidence for linear probabilities, not a shred. Not even an iota.

But there is OVERWHELMING evidence for assembly from short fragments. I laid out in detail how short fragments could be assembled from scratch and then recombined, using anything from clay to metal ions as catalysts. I provided detailed documentation for all of this. The time from methane and ammonia to polyglycine is ONE WEEK under the right conditions. And there were plenty of right conditions. Multiple available pathways.

I also showed how the tRNA folds, to make this happen in a living cell. You should go read the thread, you might learn something. IF you actually want to learn.

 

[scruffy]

FURTHERMORE (there's always a furthermore) -

Adenine, the most common constituent of DNA and RNA and the energy currency in all our cells, is merely a pentamer of hydrogen cyanide (HCN).

It can be synthesized abiotically in a matter of DAYS, in high yield at room temperature, by mixing hydrogen cyanide and ammonia.

Oro showed this in 1960. It's old news. And there are many alternate pathways, including formamide in a solution of phosphorus pentachloride.

Subsequently, dimers form spontaneously on exposure to UV light. Photodimerization is why skin cells mutate on exposure to the sun. No catalyst is needed, it happens automatically.

Furthermore ( ), adenine is a B vitamin, it used to be called B4. Two other B vitamins (niacin and riboflavin) bind with adenine to form NAD and FAD, which are essential cofactors that then form Coenzyme A and Coenzyme Q.

Then - you have ribose synthesized from smaller molecules (aldehydes) at room temperature in a mildly alkaline solution. And you have phosphorylation in the presence of any kind of reactive OH.

The time frame for all of this is DAYS, not weeks or months. All that remains is incorporation into micelles. Which occurs spontaneously by biophysical invagination in the presence of calcium.

Therefore - in a time frame of approximately 1 week you have both genetic material and energy currency, stabilized in micelles and isolated from the extracellular environment. Once formed, aqueous RNA is stable for about a year.

Template directed RNA synthesis without enzymes has been occurring in hundreds of labs for at least 30 years. Now it occurs in SECONDS.

Chemical primer extension in seconds - PubMed

Chemical primer extension in seconds

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So you see, all of this is very straightforward and there is no mystery in any of it. The adenine precursors HCN and ammonia are among the most common molecules in the universe, they're even found floating in space in interstellar dust clouds. Given water and sunlight they will spontaneously form nucleotides. Throw in a few fatty acids and suddenly you have proto-cells that are protected from disruption and contain a chemical environment favorable to long chain polymerization.

Furthermore - cells eat other cells. They invaginate entire cells and all their contents. Which then form things like nuclei and mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum and the Golgi apparatus.

Yes, it takes a while to get to a full on bacterium. Not too long though. A few million years, maybe. Before that you get something like the single stranded RNA that viruses use. The prokaryote "cyanobacter" goes back at least 3.5 billion years, from fossil evidence. The earth is maybe 4.5 billion years old. So we had PLENTY of time to incubate life.

Cyanobacter has a single circular chromosome with about 1 million base pairs. Perhaps more importantly, it has plasmids, which are little bits of genetic material that can be exchanged with other organisms. Among the blue green algae there are only a few hundred genes that are highly conserved, out of several thousand. Cyanobacter is photosynthetic, it's autotrophic.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0605709103

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0711165105

The cyanobacterial genome core and the origin of photosynthesis

Comparative analysis of 15 complete cyanobacterial genome sequences, including “near minimal” genomes of five strains of Prochlorococcus spp., revealed 1,054 protein families [core cyanobacterial clusters of orthologous groups of proteins ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The composition of the global and feature specific cyanobacterial core-genomes

Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic prokaryotes important for many ecosystems with a high potential for biotechnological usage e.g., in the production of bioactive molecules. Either asks for a deep understanding of the functionality of cyanobacteria and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ChemEngineer]

More bullshit from clueless creationists.

Go learn some math, dumbass.

I had to take you off IGNORE to read your wisdom and sophistication. It's really quite impressive in terms of :
1. Pointing out any error whatsoever in my website,
2. Demonstrating your profound intellectual abilities,
3. Expressing the usual hatefulness and pettiness of you godless Leftists.

Keep up the bad work. You'll win many more recruits with your cesspool tactics who belong right there with you. Incidentally, have you thought of going to work with your Hamas brothers? They're being martyred at a very fast clip these days.

__________________________________________

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I had to take you off IGNORE to read your wisdom and sophistication. It's really quite impressive in terms of :
1. Pointing out any error whatsoever in my website,
2. Demonstrating your profound intellectual abilities,
3. Expressing the usual hatefulness and pettiness of you godless Leftists.

Keep up the bad work. You'll win many more recruits with your cesspool tactics who belong right there with you. Incidentally, have you thought of going to work with your Hamas brothers? They're being martyred at a very fast clip these days.

__________________________________________

Usless troll babble

 

[scruffy]

I had to take you off IGNORE to read your wisdom and sophistication. It's really quite impressive in terms of :
1. Pointing out any error whatsoever in my website,
2. Demonstrating your profound intellectual abilities,
3. Expressing the usual hatefulness and pettiness of you godless Leftists.

Keep up the bad work. You'll win many more recruits with your cesspool tactics who belong right there with you. Incidentally, have you thought of going to work with your Hamas brothers? They're being martyred at a very fast clip these days.

__________________________________________

Troll. ^^^