Good guy with a gun saves woman being stabbed to death...

[JimBowie1958]

Well mostly because there aren't very many defenses and this is why they are not reported.

NEWS Flash! Brain reports that there are almost no cases of people selling marijuana that do not result in arrest!

Story at ten!

 

[Brain357]

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

you mean 'only 1.2 million violent crimes reported', dude.

And you think a minority of the population could possibly be defending 1.5 million? You can't be serious. Gun owners would have to be huge magnets for crime and also never report crimes. Neither of those are true.

 

[Brain357]

Well mostly because there aren't very many defenses and this is why they are not reported.

NEWS Flash! Brain reports that there are almost no cases of people selling marijuana that do not result in arrest!

Story at ten!

When a criminal buys marijuana from another criminal who is going to report it? Are you saying most defenses are criminal on criminal?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Well mostly because there aren't very many defenses and this is why they are not reported.

NEWS Flash! Brain reports that there are almost no cases of people selling marijuana that do not result in arrest!

Story at ten!

When a criminal buys marijuana from another criminal who is going to report it? Are you saying most defenses are criminal on criminal?

Yes, I think most unreported DGU instances the defender likely had an unregistered gun or had it unlawfully or was simply concerned that his use might be illegal in some fashion.

But that is based on my own personal history and that of friends, no scientific survey, meaning these are real events, lol

 

[JimBowie1958]

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

you mean 'only 1.2 million violent crimes reported', dude.

And you think a minority of the population could possibly be defending 1.5 million? You can't be serious. Gun owners would have to be huge magnets for crime and also never report crimes. Neither of those are true.

You are talking about less than 1% of the nations population over the course of decades.

Dont be an idiot.

 

[Brain357]

Well mostly because there aren't very many defenses and this is why they are not reported.

NEWS Flash! Brain reports that there are almost no cases of people selling marijuana that do not result in arrest!

Story at ten!

When a criminal buys marijuana from another criminal who is going to report it? Are you saying most defenses are criminal on criminal?

Yes, I think most unreported DGU instances the defender likely had an unregistered gun or had it unlawfully or was simply concerned that his use might be illegal in some fashion.

But that is based on my own personal history and that of friends, no scientific survey, meaning these are real events, lol

So probably not lawful defenses.

 

[Brain357]

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

you mean 'only 1.2 million violent crimes reported', dude.

And you think a minority of the population could possibly be defending 1.5 million? You can't be serious. Gun owners would have to be huge magnets for crime and also never report crimes. Neither of those are true.

You are talking about less than 1% of the nations population over the course of decades.

Dont be an idiot.

The 1.5 is an annual number, not over the course of decades. Lawful gun ownership and crime rates don't support that kind of number. This isn't a 3rd world country. We don't have enough crime for 1.5 million defenses each year.

 

[2aguy]

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

you mean 'only 1.2 million violent crimes reported', dude.

And you think a minority of the population could possibly be defending 1.5 million? You can't be serious. Gun owners would have to be huge magnets for crime and also never report crimes. Neither of those are true.

You are talking about less than 1% of the nations population over the course of decades.

Dont be an idiot.

The 1.5 is an annual number, not over the course of decades. Lawful gun ownership and crime rates don't support that kind of number. This isn't a 3rd world country. We don't have enough crime for 1.5 million defenses each year.

Yes, the actually do....you keep denying it but lying about it doesn't make it true.

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

Here are some crime stats......over 12 million reported crimes determined by people actually arrested...

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For 2012, law enforcement made approximately 12,200,000 arrests nationally, down 200,000 from 2011

Now....that is actual arrests made, not criminals who escaped capture, or how many crimes each committed and got a way with before they were finally arrested......

 

[2aguy]

And what else do we learn about crime...

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2011, surveys indicated more than 5.8 million violent victimizations and 17.1 million property victimizations took place in the United States; according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, each property victimization corresponded to one household, while violent victimizations is the number of victims of a violent crime.[31]

 

[2aguy]

and this for my own records...

Repeat Felons Dominate the Criminal Justice System—Most Convicted Felons do not Serve Time in Prison—Part One

Please note that the majority of crime in America is not reported and the majority of reported crime does not result in an arrest and in many jurisdictions, a significant minority of crimes are not prosecuted. Thus if you reach the stage where the criminal justice system is prosecuting you for a felony, either you have done something very wrong or the system is tired of seeing you back in court.

77 percent of felony defendants have at least one prior arrest and 69 percent have multiple prior arrests. 61 percent have at least one conviction and 49 percent have multiple convictions.

35 percent of those charged with felonies have 10 or more prior arrests and another 17 percent have between 5 to 9 arrests, thus 52 percent of charged felons have been arrested and before the courts many times.

 

[martybegan]

I did answer, what you quoted as a reference is bull.

I asked why you would think they are lawful? What could lead you to believe that? What specifically is wrong with the study?

Because its based on a survey of opinions, not actual events resulting in prosecution.

If most private gun uses turned out to be unlawful, why aren't there thousands of CCW holders losing their permits?

I assume you don't believe the surveys about the number of DGUs?

I usually don't believe surveys in general. My analysis of the DGU numbers of 1.5M a year was just to see if the numbers even made a bit of sense.

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

Define "violent" crimes, also you are comparing survey data to actual hard criminal data.

 

[martybegan]

Brandishing doesn't just involve taking a gun out, there has to be an implicit threat.

What is Brandishing? | Firearm Training Classes, Firearms Training

I am aware of that, but unless it is on public land on or near a school, it is a misdemeanor.

However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

I also point out that your tactic of clearing your holster and bringing your gun into full view is more apt to be classified as brandishing than if a person simply lifted the shirt (oops I slipped) and there was no proof of intent to threaten.

Also, the site you reference is against Open Carry, aka 'Constitutional Carry'. I regard it with suspiscion as it fails to get that simple subject correct.

In 2011 a Chesterfield County mom decided to open carry her handgun while walking one of her daughters to the bus stop because she was concerned about her daughter being bullied. At this point, I don’t think I have to tell you anything else for you to know that she had the intent of inducing fear, but I will anyway. Three students ages 12 and 13 who were at the bus stop that morning testified that when one of them pointed out to the others that she had a gun, the woman began a profanity-laden tirade about her right to carry and the fact that she was not afraid to fight or use her gun. The children say the woman put her hand on the gun, but the woman denied as much. However, as the judge stated, she didn’t have to touch the gun for a brandishing conviction; the threatening behavior combined with the presence of the gun reasonably induced fear which resulted in the finding of guilt.


That is just horse shit. The woman had a right to open carry that is listed in the 2nd Amendment and it is a scandal that so many states fail to respect that right.

it was probably less about her open carrying and more about the perceived threats while carrying. With great power comes great responsibility, and the responsibility when you are carrying is to not be a jackass with your gun.

 

[martybegan]

They don't. There are only 1.2 million violent crimes.

you mean 'only 1.2 million violent crimes reported', dude.

Yup.

 

[Wilbur Right]

With great power comes great responsibility, and the responsibility when you are carrying is to not be a jackass with your gun.

And there in lies our great dilemma. We dont have much success in the way of stopping jackasses from having guns.

And sometimes some people dont become jackasses until they have a gun.

Quite the conundrum.

 

[martybegan]

With great power comes great responsibility, and the responsibility when you are carrying is to not be a jackass with your gun.

And there in lies our great dilemma. We dont have much success in the way of stopping jackasses from having guns.

And sometimes some people dont become jackasses until they have a gun.

Quite the conundrum.

Jackasses also have access to cars, hammers, beer bottles, knives etc. It's still not a reason to apply prior restraint to MY right to keep and bear arms.

 

[JimBowie1958]

it was probably less about her open carrying and more about the perceived threats while carrying. With great power comes great responsibility, and the responsibility when you are carrying is to not be a jackass with your gun.

How does carrying a gun in its holster make one a jack ass? So are all cops jack asses to you then?

 

[martybegan]

it was probably less about her open carrying and more about the perceived threats while carrying. With great power comes great responsibility, and the responsibility when you are carrying is to not be a jackass with your gun.

How does carrying a gun in its holster make one a jack ass? So are all cops jack asses to you then?

Gun in the holster does not make her a jackass, spouting off about your 2nd amendment rights and your willingness to exercise said right in an excited manner makes you a jackass. It could have been a large Red Snapper in her hand, and her threatening to exercise her Red Snapper upside your head rights, and she still would have been wrong.

 

[Wilbur Right]

Jackasses also have access to cars, hammers, beer bottles, knives etc. It's still not a reason to apply prior restraint to MY right to keep and bear arms.

Are you saying you are a jackass with a gun?

Pretty defensive for just pointing out a fact. Some people are jackasses and shouldnt have a gun. Some people become jackasses because they have a gun.

Dont know what you are and dont care. Doesnt change the fact that this situation is a conundrum.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Gun in the holster does not make her a jackass, spouting off about your 2nd amendment rights and your willingness to exercise said right in an excited manner makes you a jackass. It could have been a large Red Snapper in her hand, and her threatening to exercise her Red Snapper upside your head rights, and she still would have been wrong.

I dont think that she admitted to reciting her rights in an excited or threatening manner.

So does open carrying a gun mean that you are an unstable wacko? It doesnt to me, but I have been surprised at how many pro-gun people consider open carry only for wack jobs.