Gun Control - What's the Problem?

[Daryl Hunt]

I don't even mind the abstraction of universal background checks, but I do mind the federal government doing it, and only allowing FFLs request them.
They they want universal background checks, then anyone and every one must be able to request one themselves, instead of paying an FFL to do it for them.

The guy that shot six cops in PA was a felon, and from what I heard on the radio the other day, a rap sheet a mile long, yet he had access to all kinds of weapons obviously. There is no way he could have purchased his weapons from a licensed dealer and passed a background check.

This happens all the time unfortunately. I think if you are a felon that uses an illegal firearm in the act of a crime, it should automatically be a life sentence with no parole.

He easily could have gone one state over and purchased the weapon without even an ID much less a background check from a private person or a gun show. While HE might be illegal in making the purchase, the person selling it would be making a legal sale. Now, let's go one step further. The person that provided that gun should also get the automatic life sentence as well but will get off scott free.

 

[Blues Man]

The obviously don't since it keeps happening

Just because events still occur doesn’t mean other occurrences aren’t being prevented. #uselogic

To what degree are they prevented

If 1 out of 1000 get caught that isn't prevention

Whatever you say

So you think getting one out of 1000 is preventing crime in general?

Are you high?

I dont even know what that means. Seems like a pointless debate. But if 1 life is saved out of a 1000 then I think that’s a pretty great thing.

You are assuming that every time a straw buyer is caught that a life is saved?

There is no evidence of that

 

[Blues Man]

Not really



You need a permit to protest on public property but not to protest in general

But hey let's make a mandatory syllabus for all citizens that they must complete with a 100% average then they can pay for and get a permit for every one of their guaranteed rights.

We could balance the budget on the backs of people who want their rights and liberties

Good idea huh. Comrade?

No, bad idea. Thanks for playing though

But making people get permits and licenses for their rights is OK if it's only gun rights ?

WHat's good for one right is good for all

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't mean to be an asshole about this, but the government didn't give us anything.

Are you sure I said that the government gave us those rights?

There are two separate and distinct issues here:

The Right of the people and
a militia that insures the security of a free state

The Second Amendment is guaranteeing an existing Right that predates the Constitution. The benefit to all Americans is a well armed populace that can prevent tyranny in government.

I have no trouble with that. Not sure where you gathered that I did?

Unfortunately, we are NOT living up to our part as citizens. On the day that Trump signs the Universal Background Check, EVERY American should show up at their state capital and have a bonfire, burning their gun licenses, registrations, permits, tax stamps, etc.

The time for talking is over. It's either we accept the new laws or we don't.

Again, I have no problem with this. I've been saying "All that is required for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing" for years.

The only "asshole" tendency might have been making erroneous ASSumptions?

I don't think I made any assumptions. Your exact words were:

"The Intent of the 2nd Amendment is simple.......
Give THE PEOPLE..."

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

[
I don't think I made any assumptions. Your exact words were:
"The Intent of the 2nd Amendment is simple.......
Give THE PEOPLE..."

I see your point.....but think about it.....if it didn't need to be stated so as to be indisputable in laws, there would have been no need for the Constitution at all.
Like it or not, the rights you consider "inalienable" are not so much so to many on the Left. And they can and do take them away.

You're saying that people don't need a Constitution to have inalienable rights.....I get that.
But in a society with Democrats and leftist Progressives who become judges and politicians and lawmakers, it must be stated in writing or they assume you have no such rights and that government does.

We both agree in principle here.....no need to go to war with each other. we should focus on the real enemy. Better use of time and energy.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

[
I don't think I made any assumptions. Your exact words were:
"The Intent of the 2nd Amendment is simple.......
Give THE PEOPLE..."

I see your point.....but think about it.....if it didn't need to be stated so as to be indisputable in laws, there would have been no need for the Constitution at all.
Like it or not, the rights you consider "inalienable" are not so much so to many on the Left. And they can and do take them away.

You're saying that people don't need a Constitution to have inalienable rights.....I get that.
But in a society with Democrats and leftist Progressives who become judges and politicians and lawmakers, it must be stated in writing or they assume you have no such rights and that government does.

We both agree in principle here.....no need to go to war with each other. we should focus on the real enemy. Better use of time and energy.

I do agree with you in principle and don't want to sound condescending. And, I hate to bring up another point, but I'm about unalienable Rights. Grammarists will tell you that unalienable and inalienable are synonymous, but they are not. In law, it boils down to who the grantor of a Right (right) is. Unalienable Rights were given to you, at birth, by your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) They cannot be bought, sold, given away, traded, with-held (except during punishment for a crime) or forfeited.

Inalienable rights are granted by the government and subject to alienation. You can give up an inalienable right. We have to be judicious and careful of the words we use. The left knows what I'm talking about. They want you to speak their terminology so they can beat you down with double talk and semantics. This link is well worth your time:

Stolen Rights

Notice that it is a debate and the left never once challenges the facts.

 

[Slade3200]

Just because events still occur doesn’t mean other occurrences aren’t being prevented. #uselogic

To what degree are they prevented

If 1 out of 1000 get caught that isn't prevention

Whatever you say

So you think getting one out of 1000 is preventing crime in general?

Are you high?

I dont even know what that means. Seems like a pointless debate. But if 1 life is saved out of a 1000 then I think that’s a pretty great thing.

You are assuming that every time a straw buyer is caught that a life is saved?

There is no evidence of that

I’m not assuming that. I never said every time. That’s a fake argument

 

[Slade3200]

No, bad idea. Thanks for playing though

But making people get permits and licenses for their rights is OK if it's only gun rights ?

WHat's good for one right is good for all

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

You seem to be having a hard time following... I didn’t bring up voting registration as an example of what we need to duplicate for guns. I brought it up as an example of how other rights are regulated after you acted like guns is the only right that we are wanting to regulate.

 

[Flash]

This is how fucking oppressive the government has become.


Connecticut man accused of social media threat to local Puerto Rican festival

"A Connecticut man was arrested early Saturday for a social media post that police say implied a threat to the New Haven Puerto Rican Festival, according to reports.

Jeffrey Hanson, 53, of Orange, Conn., was charged with breach of peace and held on $50,000 bond, Fox 61 reported.

Sources told the station that Hanson, using the screen name “Jake Wilson,” posted an online comment to a local news story about the festival, saying that the gathering was “why we need 30 round magazines.”

 

[Porter Rockwell]

But making people get permits and licenses for their rights is OK if it's only gun rights ?

WHat's good for one right is good for all

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

You seem to be having a hard time following... I didn’t bring up voting registration as an example of what we need to duplicate for guns. I brought it up as an example of how other rights are regulated after you acted like guns is the only right that we are wanting to regulate.

There is no right to vote.

Americans Don’t Have a Constitutional Right to Vote — Is It Time for a Change?

There Is No Right To Vote | Current Affairs

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

I do agree with you in principle and don't want to sound condescending. And, I hate to bring up another point, but I'm about unalienable Rights. Grammarists will tell you that unalienable and inalienable are synonymous, but they are not. In law, it boils down to who the grantor of a Right (right) is. Unalienable Rights were given to you, at birth, by your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) They cannot be bought, sold, given away, traded, with-held (except during punishment for a crime) or forfeited.

Inalienable rights are granted by the government and subject to alienation. You can give up an inalienable right. We have to be judicious and careful of the words we use. The left knows what I'm talking about. They want you to speak their terminology so they can beat you down with double talk and semantics. This link is well worth your time:

Stolen Rights

Notice that it is a debate and the left never once challenges the facts.

Always open to learning.
I'll read the info at the link you posted.

 

[Rigby5]

To what degree are they prevented

If 1 out of 1000 get caught that isn't prevention

Whatever you say

So you think getting one out of 1000 is preventing crime in general?

Are you high?

I dont even know what that means. Seems like a pointless debate. But if 1 life is saved out of a 1000 then I think that’s a pretty great thing.

Not if you intimidate people from having defensive guns, so then you cause thousands of crimes to be successful that would not have otherwise.have been lost.
Over 99.9% of people are honest and make society better when armed.
The 0.1% who are a danger armed, are not going to give up because you made it harder for honest people to be armed.
In fact, you will greatly encourage the criminals because they will know there is will be no resistance because everyone else will be unarmed.

I’m not saying anything about taking guns away from responsible people. Please let that sink in, I’m tired of repeating myself

If you are not promoting taking guns away from responsible people, then why would you be taking about any additional federal firearms laws, when clearly there already are way too many?
We know what the causes of crime, suicide, mass murder, etc., are, and weapons accessibility is definitely NOT one of them.

If you do not want to take guns from responsible people, then you would be against all federal firearm laws, not just because the federal government is supposed to be denied jurisdiction by the Bill of Rights, but because it is distant, arrogant, and generally abusive.

When there is an increase in senseless violence like mass murders, suicides, etc., there is definitely serious things wrong. Attempts to suppress the symptoms, so that the serious problems are not addressed and ignored instead, would be criminally irresponsible. One would only do that by more gun control, if the problems with society were deliberate and the intent was to make them even worse.

Look at some of California's approach to firearms. They made the SKS illegal, even though it is only a 10 shot internal magazine. Clearly the ONLY reason for singling out the benign SKS is that it was selling for only $88. So then the motivation by the state of California has to be to deliberately discriminate against poor people. There can be no other motive.

 

[Rigby5]

But making people get permits and licenses for their rights is OK if it's only gun rights ?

WHat's good for one right is good for all

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

Voter registration does not require a license, passport or anything at all like that.
They send you voter registration card in the mail.
The main goal is to verify your address.
It is illegal in the US to require an ID, like a license or passport.

And gun control is nothing like that, because first of all it is federal, distant, banned by the Constitution, and pushed by those who have already admitted they want total confiscation of all private firearms.

How do they get your address? Regardless it is a registration process.

You have to send in a voter registration form in order for them to get your address to mail back to, but that is not very significant.
You ignored the important parts, which is that any gun control or regulations it prohibited from the federal government by the Bill of Rights.
And while it is fine for your address be used for voter registration, it is not fine for government to have the address of all the guns in the country. Government can be better than criminals or foreign invaders, but government do also have a long history of being abusive themselves. No one should want any government to have too much power or private information.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't even mind the abstraction of universal background checks, but I do mind the federal government doing it, and only allowing FFLs request them.
They they want universal background checks, then anyone and every one must be able to request one themselves, instead of paying an FFL to do it for them.

The guy that shot six cops in PA was a felon, and from what I heard on the radio the other day, a rap sheet a mile long, yet he had access to all kinds of weapons obviously. There is no way he could have purchased his weapons from a licensed dealer and passed a background check.

This happens all the time unfortunately. I think if you are a felon that uses an illegal firearm in the act of a crime, it should automatically be a life sentence with no parole.

Yes, life should have enough justice and opportunity so that anyone fatally abusing others should just be executed or life incarceration.
But the problem now is that there is no justice or opportunity for the poor, and crime then is not the fault of the criminal.
It is only ok to be draconian when one can be sure it is deserved.
And right now I tend to blame the police, government, corporate interests, corrupt politicians, etc. more than the criminals.

 

[Rigby5]

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

You seem to be having a hard time following... I didn’t bring up voting registration as an example of what we need to duplicate for guns. I brought it up as an example of how other rights are regulated after you acted like guns is the only right that we are wanting to regulate.

There is no right to vote.

Americans Don’t Have a Constitutional Right to Vote — Is It Time for a Change?

There Is No Right To Vote | Current Affairs

But I assume you agree there should be a right to vote, because taxation without representation would seem to be wrong to me.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't even mind the abstraction of universal background checks, but I do mind the federal government doing it, and only allowing FFLs request them.
They they want universal background checks, then anyone and every one must be able to request one themselves, instead of paying an FFL to do it for them.

The guy that shot six cops in PA was a felon, and from what I heard on the radio the other day, a rap sheet a mile long, yet he had access to all kinds of weapons obviously. There is no way he could have purchased his weapons from a licensed dealer and passed a background check.

This happens all the time unfortunately. I think if you are a felon that uses an illegal firearm in the act of a crime, it should automatically be a life sentence with no parole.

He easily could have gone one state over and purchased the weapon without even an ID much less a background check from a private person or a gun show. While HE might be illegal in making the purchase, the person selling it would be making a legal sale. Now, let's go one step further. The person that provided that gun should also get the automatic life sentence as well but will get off scott free.

Not following your logic about going one state over.
It is always illegal to sell to a convicted felon, no matter what state.
You will be prosecuted if you sell to a felon even if you thought they were legal.
Nor is it any harder to buy privately in any state.
I also have never heard of anyone ever selling without at least looking at an ID and writing down a name.
It would be extremely foolish, since if a crime is committed, it will be prosecuted on the last name that is given for the chain of ownership.
The person who sold to the felon should not automatically get life because selling is not as evil as pulling the trigger.
But in no state will the seller get off scott free.
They may beat the charges, but they will be charged.

 

[basquebromance]

Andrew Yang wants to pay folks to give in their gun!

 

[Rigby5]

To what degree are they prevented

If 1 out of 1000 get caught that isn't prevention

Whatever you say

So you think getting one out of 1000 is preventing crime in general?

Are you high?

I dont even know what that means. Seems like a pointless debate. But if 1 life is saved out of a 1000 then I think that’s a pretty great thing.

You are assuming that every time a straw buyer is caught that a life is saved?

There is no evidence of that

I’m not assuming that. I never said every time. That’s a fake argument

But the facts are that straw purchase/sales are very hard to convict because the person guilty can just claim it was a theft, so they usually get off. That means only about 1 of 1000 get convicted. But the number of convictions really has no correlation to lives saved. The vast majority of criminals with illegal guns are not shooting people. They more likely are using them to just intimidate, either to defend drug turf, at a robbery where not shots are fired, etc. It likely is wrong to imply that laws actually save any lives. People are going to do what they are going to do, regardless of what laws exist.

 

[Rigby5]

But making people get permits and licenses for their rights is OK if it's only gun rights ?

WHat's good for one right is good for all

You need to register to vote, do you not? You need an ID to register. You have regulations in speech depending on how and where you use it, right? Each of our “rights” is both protected and regulated as to protect the rights of others. That’s how it works.

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

You seem to be having a hard time following... I didn’t bring up voting registration as an example of what we need to duplicate for guns. I brought it up as an example of how other rights are regulated after you acted like guns is the only right that we are wanting to regulate.

Except that voting is not regulated in general.
Proving who you are when you vote is facilitating voting, so that someone else does not steal your vote.
And that is not true with firearms registration.
That is not facilitating, but deliberately intimidating.
Voting is restricted when it comes to convicted felons, but I think that is not legal really.
Government does not really have the authority to prevent felons from voting while still taxing them.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

All you need to do is prove you are 18 nd that you are a resident of the town

There is no permit . no class, no fee

What is it called when you prove your age and residency? “Registration” how do most people do it? With a license or passport

Come on man, you’re trying too hard

So then if that's what registration is every time I buy a gun and show an ID to prove may age and address I am registering

So you are actually getting what you want right?

You seem to be having a hard time following... I didn’t bring up voting registration as an example of what we need to duplicate for guns. I brought it up as an example of how other rights are regulated after you acted like guns is the only right that we are wanting to regulate.

There is no right to vote.

Americans Don’t Have a Constitutional Right to Vote — Is It Time for a Change?

There Is No Right To Vote | Current Affairs

But I assume you agree there should be a right to vote, because taxation without representation would seem to be wrong to me.

What do we have now?

That aside, the Right to keep and bear Arms is an unalienable Right. I know people are programmed to think that government is necessary to regulate firearms, but to them that is an invitation to create separate classes of citizens, ban certain firearms, keep registries for future confiscations, etc.

If you're really concerned about firearm violence, you have to accept the truth: Virtually all firearm violence in America is related to drugs and / or political jihadists.

What does not make sense to me in this country is that we only let half a million foreigners come here to work every year, but we allow a MILLION others to become citizens - and lots of them hate this country. Then either they or their children commit mass murders. You don't need a college degree to figure out that solution.

America is the drug hub of the planet. We could change that AND we could rehabilitate the young before they predictably become killers. As responsible Americans, that is where we should focus our efforts.