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As the murder rate in the US is ~4.5/100k and would be lower if not for Chicago, you prove my point.You need to check your math. The murder rate in Chicago is about 20 in 100,000.Murder rates there are much higher than places outside of there, so... yes.[QUOTE="alang1216, post: 15039815, member: 49658
It also means 100%-1. What's your point, that almost 1/2 of the people in a democrat voting district in a democrat controlled inner city are adding to the murder rate?
By necessity.
Why are 2nd Amendment fanatics so obsessed with Chicago? I don't get it. It's the only city they ever bring up. Chicago Chicago Chicago!
Sure - things that do not restrict the exercise of their right.Is there anything that won't infringe on the rights of the law abiding?Thee things do nothing to prevent criminals from getting guns and infringe on the rights of the law abiding.Are you OK with gun registration, background checks and mandatory training?
So... no.
Anything else?
It is illegal to commit a crime with a gun. Not an infringement.
It is illegal for a felon to buy/own/possess a gun. Not an infringement.
Etc.
Criminal law, by its nature, is enforced after the law is broken.Are we powerless to prevent gun crime since we can only react after the fact?
That's an oversimplification. Plenty of crimes are charged against people who "broke laws" but have not yet created any victims. The goal of those in support of gun control is to prevent victims. DUI laws were created to stop injuries and fatalities from accidents involving alcohol. To do that, we criminalized driving drunk, not just crashing. The DUI arrest itself is not the goal. The prevention of harm is the goal.
Similarly, more than just locking someone up after they shoot a room full of people is required to stop people from shooting rooms full of people. You can make laws designed to prevent crime. We do it every day. Only disingenuous gun-rights martyrs think otherwise.
You can't carry a gun if you are drunk, if you do you are arrested.....It is against the law to shoot up a room full of people....if you do you can be arrested....
How do you stop a law abiding citizen, who passes a 2 federal background checks and one background check at his work plus a 10 month FBI investigation with 2 interviews by trained FBI interrogators, plus an under cover agent researching them.....from going into an Orlando Night club and killing 49 people.......
How do you do more than that? And that effort failed......
We have laws that prevent crime...if you use a gun to commit a crime you go to jail...so 99% of the population does not use a gun to commit a crime....
320,000,000 people in the country....and less than 8,124 use a gun to commit a crime......those gun laws work........
All rights carry restrictions with them. I need a photo id to vote in VA.Tell me how you think it constitutional for the state to require some arbitrary level of knowledge before it allows someone to exercise their rights.I can't think of a better use of my tax dollars than to ensure gun owners have some level of knowledge.Mandatory training....who pays for it? How does the poor person afford several hundred dollars in training fees in order to exercise a Constitutional Right....? Do you have an answer for that? Or do you think we should charge a tax for voting too.....?
Be sure you apply your answer to the exercise of all rights.
And we have restrictions on guns...you have to be 18 to buy a long gun and 21 to buy a hand gun....you can't commit crimes with guns...if you are a felon you can't buy, own or carry a gun......
We have lots of laws....you guys just don't want them enforced...you would rather create more paperwork and hoops for law abiding gun owners.
Oh look -- a correlation = causation fallacy!And every other country in the western world is an example of MORE extreme gun control. And why it works.
Oh look -- a correlation = causation fallacy!And every other country in the western world is an example of MORE extreme gun control. And why it works.
Nice.
Common theme among laws intended to prevent people from breaking other laws..The laws don't work.
Violent crime, gun-related violent crime, murder, and gun related murder have fallen 55% since 1993.The gun death epidemic in this nation....
Sad that you have to lie to make your point.You don't want the gun deaths to stop. You want them to continue.
That's the position of the NRA and 2nd Amendment people.
Ah! Red herring!Right, but it's not a fallacy in the case of Chicago?Oh look -- a correlation = causation fallacy!And every other country in the western world is an example of MORE extreme gun control. And why it works.
Nice.
Common theme among laws intended to prevent people from breaking other laws..The laws don't work.
Doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out why.
Violent crime, gun-related violent crime, murder, and gun related murder have fallen 55% since 1993.The gun death epidemic in this nation....
Epidemic?
Sad that you have to lie to make your point.You don't want the gun deaths to stop. You want them to continue.
That's the position of the NRA and 2nd Amendment people.
Expected, but sad.
You missed my point. That we need laws that keep guns away from criminals and their ilk in addition to laws that punish criminals for using guns.Ah. You understand you cannot counter my point. Good.Would you rather vaccinate your children or treat their illness?Criminal law, by its nature, is enforced after the law is broken.
Ah! Red herring!Right, but it's not a fallacy in the case of Chicago?Oh look -- a correlation = causation fallacy!And every other country in the western world is an example of MORE extreme gun control. And why it works.
Nice.
You know you cannot defend against the charge of fallacy and seek to change the subject.
You know that changing the subject does nothing to change the fact you argue a correlation = causation fallacy, right?
You don't know any more than you know who will get sick so you vaccinate everyone, even those who wouldn't get ill. They suffer a little but it is better than the alternative.When you tell me how to predict with 100% accuracy who will and who won't commit a crime let me knowWould you rather vaccinate your children or treat their illness?Criminal law, by its nature, is enforced after the law is broken.
You don't know any more than you know who will get sick so you vaccinate everyone, even those who wouldn't get ill. They suffer a little but it is better than the alternative.When you tell me how to predict with 100% accuracy who will and who won't commit a crime let me knowWould you rather vaccinate your children or treat their illness?Criminal law, by its nature, is enforced after the law is broken.
I'm not a statistician but even I can see how much spin was put on this story.[
And if you think that American gun owners are now responding to any pollster...anonymous, on the phone....to their guns in their home....you are not realistic...especially after news paper organizations published the names and addresses of gun owners after Sandy Hook....
Then there is this....
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News
US murdersGoing from a 14,000 per year epidemic to 8,000 per year isn't 55% and isn't a cure.
The CDC can do gun research, just $2.6 million less than before.Congress earmarked $2.6 million from the CDC's budget, the exact amount that had previously been allocated to the agency for firearms research the previous year. The CDC can do gun research, just $2.6 million less than before.Are you really pushing the lie that the CDC can't do gun research....I have had several threads that have listed actual gun reserach by the CDC......
That is not true...just a quick search for CDC gun research found this....
This is some gun research from the CEC in 2006....
Violence-Related Firearm Deaths Among Residents of Metropolitan Areas and Cities --- United States, 2006--2007
And this one....
Source of Firearms Used by Students in School-Associated Violent Deaths --- United States, 1992--1999
And this one....
http://www.thecommunityguide.org/violence/viol-AJPM-evrev-firearms-law.pdf
And this one....
Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries --- United States, 1993--1998
And this one....
Firearm Homicides and Suicides in Major Metropolitan Areas — United States, 2006–2007 and 2009–2010
And this one...
Indoor Firing Ranges and Elevated Blood Lead Levels — United States, 2002–2013
And this one....
Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries
==================
The Deleware study of 2015...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/us/cdc-gun-violence-wilmington.html?_r=0
When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.
They were here to examine gun violence.
This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
.-------
The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.
“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,” the report said. “Our findings suggest that integrating data systems could help these individuals better receive the early, comprehensive help that they need to prevent violence involvement.”
Researchers analyzed data on 569 people charged with firearm crimes from 2009 to May 21, 2014, and looked for certain risk factors in their lives, such as whether they had been unemployed, had received help from assistance programs, had been possible victims of child abuse, or had been shot or stabbed. The idea was to show that linking such data could create a better understanding of who might need help before becoming involved in violence.
Straw man: "taking guns away". You said this not me.Classic straw man argument.Focus on actual gun criminals instead of taking guns away from normal gun owners.....
Not a straw man argument...it is the actual argument........you guys focus on laws that only effect normal gun owners and their access to guns...we focus on the actual shooters....who get caught carrying illegal guns and are then released back onto the streets to keep shooting......we can already stop them....we just have to have prosecutors and judges who will lock them up.
Why do you thin it is possible to enact a law that will prevent people from breaking the law?You missed my point. That we need laws that keep guns away from criminals....Ah. You understand you cannot counter my point. Good.Would you rather vaccinate your children or treat their illness?Criminal law, by its nature, is enforced after the law is broken.
They can both killSorry but a gun and a virus are not analogous at all
I have not once brought up Chicago.WTF are you talking about? The discussion is about your incessant discussion of Chicago...Ah! Red herring!Right, but it's not a fallacy in the case of Chicago?Oh look -- a correlation = causation fallacy!And every other country in the western world is an example of MORE extreme gun control. And why it works.
Nice.
You know you cannot defend against the charge of fallacy and seek to change the subject.
You know that changing the subject does nothing to change the fact you argue a correlation = causation fallacy, right?
Another straw man. Who are you guys? Certainly not me.We have lots of laws....you guys just don't want them enforced...you would rather create more paperwork and hoops for law abiding gun owners.
