Zone1 have you ever heard Jesus....

[Meriweather]

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all.

He who died, died once and for all to sin; and he who lives, lives for God.

Can those who continue to sin and do not turn away from sin, live for God?

 

[Meriweather]

Can you even name the 600+ laws? How about the original sin? Did you give up eating apples? How are you going to work your way out of that one?

There is no measure to forgiveness. The Jews forgave 3 times. Christ said to forgive as many times as is necessary. Does God forgive less than humans?

Matthew 18:22 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

And none of this has anything to do with the price of tea in China. What did Paul say to those who were taking on an attitude that since all is forgiven, no worries over future sins?

He pretty much said one who lives for God gives up sin.

Those who flippantly go on sinning with an attitude, of God will forgive seventy-seven times, may recall Jesus saying, "I never knew you." Living for God, to God, means giving up sin, turning away from it in its entirety. And that can be a life-long endeavor. When people live in Christ and he lives in them, sin is not possible because Christ is sinless. It's when someone steps outside of Christ, his way, and his life, that we can once again fall to sin.

 

[Red Front]

Can you even name the 600+ laws? How about the original sin? Did you give up eating apples? How are you going to work your way out of that one?

There is no measure to forgiveness. The Jews forgave 3 times. Christ said to forgive as many times as is necessary. Does God forgive less than humans?

Matthew 18:22 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

God according to the NT Bible expects Christians to forgive their enemies and pray for those who persecute them, yet he supposedly casts almost all of humanity into hell because they didn't convert to Christianity. Why doesn't God forgive his enemies? Of course, the question assumes humanity is the enemy of God, which is a baseless, arbitrary, illogical claim made by many Christians, but that's beside the point. Assuming that they're correct, why doesn't God forgive his enemies, making a way for all people to reform themselves through a divinely supported process? Why is the Christian "God" so impatient and stricken with wrath? He is so angry.

Why does the Christian deity demand perfection from an imperfect race of beings who he created, and who are under extreme pressure from hormones, the environment..etc? Christianity's view of God and the world is nonsensical and self-contradictory. It's ridiculous.

 

[The Irish Ram]

God according to the NT Bible expects Christians to forgive their enemies and pray for those who persecute them, yet he supposedly casts almost all of humanity into hell because they didn't convert to Christianity. Why doesn't God forgive his enemies? Of course, the question assumes humanity is the enemy of God, which is a baseless, arbitrary, illogical claim made by many Christians, but that's beside the point. Assuming that they're correct, why doesn't God forgive his enemies, making a way for all people to reform themselves through a divinely supported process? Why is the Christian "God" so impatient and stricken with wrath? He is so angry.

Why does the Christian deity demand perfection from an imperfect race of beings who he created, and who are under extreme pressure from hormones, the environment..etc? Christianity's view of God and the world is nonsensical and self-contradictory. It's ridiculous.

Thing is, He doesn't demand perfection. He forgives us while we are in the process of being imperfect. Then came to earth to pay for our sins and gave us His righteousness to enter Heaven with. He left no stone un-turned to make sure we end up with Him for eternity.

 

[The Irish Ram]

He who died, died once and for all to sin; and he who lives, lives for God.

Can those who continue to sin and do not turn away from sin, live for God?

Nope, God knows our heart. If you ask for forgiveness for adultery, for example, on Sunday, and hook up again on Monday, God knows your "repentance" wasn't in earnest. A new man in Christ has a new heart. He tries to avoid sinning against God. Will He ever sin again? Probably. Will He be forgiven? Absolutely.

 

[Red Front]

Thing is, He doesn't demand perfection. He forgives us while we are in the process of being imperfect. Then came to earth to pay for our sins and gave us His righteousness to enter Heaven with. He left no stone un-turned to make sure we end up with Him for eternity.

If he demands that people convert to a particular religion under the threat of being tortured in hell for all eternity, that isn't love or good news. You missed the point of what I said.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Christ never asked people to choose the right religion or else. He told us to choose the gift He offered. His righteousness for our sins. He doesn't care if they are Catholic sins, or Jewish sins or Methodist sins, or American sins or French sins.
If you were sick, and I set the very expensive medicine to cure you on your bed stand, and you refused to take it, whose fault is it that you died?

 

[Meriweather]

He tries to avoid sinning against God.

Exactly. He lives for God, discerning, doing the will of the Father, and no one should throw at him the absurd accusation that he is trying to "earn" salvation.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If Christ didn't die to cover all of your sins with His pure blood, then how are you going to get rid of the residual sins He didn't cover? For example, living for God doesn't include going after Protestants. You do it daily. So, how do you get rid of your sins? What have you done today to offset your eagerness to send everybody but you to hell?

 

[Meriweather]

If Christ didn't die to cover all of your sins with His pure blood, then how are you going to get rid of the residual sins He didn't cover? For example, living for God doesn't include going after Protestants. You do it daily. So, how do you get rid of your sins? What have you done today to offset your eagerness to send everybody but you to hell?

Presenting Catholic belief is not going after Protestants--Is presenting Protestant beliefs going after Catholics?

 

[ninja007]

And none of this has anything to do with the price of tea in China. What did Paul say to those who were taking on an attitude that since all is forgiven, no worries over future sins?

He pretty much said one who lives for God gives up sin.

Those who flippantly go on sinning with an attitude, of God will forgive seventy-seven times, may recall Jesus saying, "I never knew you." Living for God, to God, means giving up sin, turning away from it in its entirety. And that can be a life-long endeavor. When people live in Christ and he lives in them, sin is not possible because Christ is sinless. It's when someone steps outside of Christ, his way, and his life, that we can once again fall to sin.

God said I NEVER knew you, so they werent saved.

 

[BreezeWood]

Thing is, He doesn't demand perfection.

for what, there is no such existence as perfection that's no ones worry ...

good luck as with your impurity, sinner - entering heaven ... that is not allowed, call it whatever you like, their demand - you'll be finding elsewhere to reside.

 

[Gracie]

If he demands that people convert to a particular religion under the threat of being tortured in hell for all eternity, that isn't love or good news. You missed the point of what I said.

Ah, but He didn't. That came from OPINION of whomever "guessed" it is what He meant. Reading this thread, one can see how the refusals of which one is correct...which is not....and the denial of "maybe" with a closed mind. Their way or the highway sorta thing. Which is why many do exactly what my sigline says.
A loving God does not torture His children. Its those who try to speak for Him that does the torturing of mind and spirit to someone else.

 

[Gracie]

And in my own opinion...mind you, I said OPINION......those who worship the vessel (Mary) are no different than groveling at the golden calf.

 

[Meriweather]

Reading this thread, one can see how the refusals of which one is correct...which is not....

The thread is not about who is correct and who is not. The thread is about differing beliefs, different perspectives, and different approaches to salvation. It could be accurately compared to the old analogy of three blind-folded people giving their perspectives of their part of the elephant.

The Catholic perspective is rooted in the Old Testament, old languages, and those insights and traditions. The Protestant perspective is rooted in modern language, new insights, and inspirations.

The Christian perspective is that when the Holy Spirit is involved, as it is in Christianity, we will meet up, but we still have a few decades to go before that occurs. Blindfolds will be removed and the entire elephant will be observed. But right now it is a matter of describing what is seen, perceived, and experienced at this point in time.

.those who worship the vessel (Mary)

Red herring. No one worships Mary. Mary is a member of the body of Christ, as every Christian is. Saying someone "worships" Mary is the same as saying those praying together at any church are worshiping each other because they are joined in prayer.

 

[Red Front]

Ah, but He didn't. That came from OPINION of whomever "guessed" it is what He meant. Reading this thread, one can see how the refusals of which one is correct...which is not....and the denial of "maybe" with a closed mind. Their way or the highway sorta thing. Which is why many do exactly what my sigline says.
A loving God does not torture His children. Its those who try to speak for Him that does the torturing of mind and spirit to someone else.

Gobbledygook. If your version of "God" tortures people in hell for all eternity because they didn't convert to Protestant Christianity, you're believing in a morally bankrupt deity. Words like "Almighty", "Omniscient" (All Knowing), and "Love", lose their meaning and are reduced to nothing if your version of "God" is real. I don't believe it is, because I believe God is Almighty, Omniscient, and He is truly Love (God Is Love). He reforms His human creation, He doesn't abandon it in a state of eternal torment in hell. Your religion amounts to spiritual terrorism.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe God is Almighty, Omniscient, and He is truly Love (God Is Love). He reforms His human creation, He doesn't abandon it in a state of eternal torment in hell.

The Old Testament is magnificent in the ways it notes how God allows his people to suffer the consequences of their own behavior. One of the Wisdom books notes how sin carries with it, its own punishment. God uses this as discipline, but over and over again it is pointed out how God does not prolong discipline beyond what is needed less those who are faithful lose heart. The prophets of old encouraged the nation of Judah with this message.

The Dante's Inferno version of hell may capture what sin does to us, but it does not accurately grasp or portray as hell being a personal choice people make for an eternal separation from God. God throws no one into this eternal separation (hell) people choose it. Dante captures better the idea of how certain evils cannot survive the presence of God, in much the same way darkness cannot survive the presence of light. Could it be more accurate to say it is the evil that is "burned" in the presence of God, and dependent upon how much the soul is attached to the evil determines how much of the soul is burned (in the manner of gold being tested/purified in fire)?

 

[Red Front]

The Old Testament is magnificent in the ways it notes how God allows his people to suffer the consequences of their own behavior. One of the Wisdom books notes how sin carries with it, its own punishment. God uses this as discipline, but over and over again it is pointed out how God does not prolong discipline beyond what is needed less those who are faithful lose heart. The prophets of old encouraged the nation of Judah with this message.

The Dante's Inferno version of hell may capture what sin does to us, but it does not accurately grasp or portray as hell being a personal choice people make for an eternal separation from God. God throws no one into this eternal separation (hell) people choose it. Dante captures better the idea of how certain evils cannot survive the presence of God, in much the same way darkness cannot survive the presence of light. Could it be more accurate to say it is the evil that is "burned" in the presence of God, and dependent upon how much the soul is attached to the evil determines how much of the soul is burned (in the manner of gold being tested/purified in fire)?

All of your attempts to justify how God supposedly can't or refuses to reform his creation, allowing it to be destroyed due to its imperfections or because it didn't convert to a particular religion, fail. I believe God reforms the human soul, eventually allowing it to actualize its fullest potential. That's how powerful and loving my God is, that despite His creation's flaws, He creates the conditions and system, all of the processes necessary for souls to eventually become godly and experience the greatest good possible. God's discipline, His punishment, leads to reformation, not annihilation or eternal abandonment.

 

[Meriweather]

God's discipline, His punishment, leads to reformation, not annihilation or eternal abandonment.

Which is what I said...but I am still wrong? I did add purification and the free choice of remaining a part from God, but I don't see how either of those result in annihilation or eternal abandonment of the spirit.

 

[Red Front]

Which is what I said...but I am still wrong? I did add purification and the free choice of remaining a part from God, but I don't see how either of those result in annihilation or eternal abandonment of the spirit.

No one chooses to be in hell or "apart from God" if that entails hell. Spare me your sophistry and word games. According to what the NT scriptures say and what the vast majority of Protestant Evangelical Christians believe (and, many Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians as well), if a person isn't "born again" in Jesus, believing in him, they will go to hell. That's what the NT teaches, but of course, you're an eclectic, "new agey" Christian, pretending everyone can go to heaven without being born again in Jesus or even after rejecting the Christian gospel.

The NT is clear on the issue that humanity must convert to Christianity to be saved, otherwise, it is condemned and lost:

Joh 3:16-19 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who don't believe are condemned already. They reject the gospel due to being evil, that's what it explicitly states. I don't reject the Christian gospel because I love evil, or because I hate God or Jesus, I just find Christian theology immoral and completely arbitrary. I also believe the original gospel of Jesus, wasn't what is portrayed as "gospel" today. Christianity isn't representing the original gospel, but a sectarian, Gentile counterfeit. The gospel of John is a late gospel, that has nothing to do with Jesus and his 12 apostles. It contradicts what is in the synoptic gospels. It should've been classified as a non-canonical apocryphal work.