Honest and open debate on gun control

[RKMBrown]

Machine guns, for all practical intent, don't exist for general consumption. FACT

They do. There are a great many out there and they are available for purchase for anyone that can legally buy a gun.
The fact that you have to pay a transfer tax to buy one does nothing to prevent them from being used in a crime.
Fact.

And so, your point remains unproven.

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

How is that any different than today with machine guns?

 

[2aguy]

They do. There are a great many out there and they are available for purchase for anyone that can legally buy a gun.
The fact that you have to pay a transfer tax to buy one does nothing to prevent them from being used in a crime.
Fact.

And so, your point remains unproven.

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

How is that any different than today with machine guns?

It isn't. Criminals don't use them because they use handguns because they are easy to conceal. Mexico...where they are fighting government troops as well as other heavily armed drug cartels...they all have whatever guns they want...even though they are illegal there too...they import them from Russis, China and Europe....

 

[RKMBrown]

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

How is that any different than today with machine guns?

It isn't. Criminals don't use them because they use handguns because they are easy to conceal. Mexico...where they are fighting government troops as well as other heavily armed drug cartels...they all have whatever guns they want...even though they are illegal there too...they import them from Russis, China and Europe....

"it isn't"....

Yeah well that's my point.

 

[2aguy]

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

How is that any different than today with machine guns?

It isn't. Criminals don't use them because they use handguns because they are easy to conceal. Mexico...where they are fighting government troops as well as other heavily armed drug cartels...they all have whatever guns they want...even though they are illegal there too...they import them from Russis, China and Europe....

"it isn't"....

Yeah well that's my point.

No. Your point is that putting a tax stamp on guns will make them more expensive, my point is it won't matter because our criminals don't use them. If our criminals wanted to use them, your tax stamp and increased price would not stop them...as it doesn't stop them in Europe or Latin America...

 

[danielpalos]

Muster the militia and regulate them well.

 

[RKMBrown]

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

How is that any different than today with machine guns?

It isn't. Criminals don't use them because they use handguns because they are easy to conceal. Mexico...where they are fighting government troops as well as other heavily armed drug cartels...they all have whatever guns they want...even though they are illegal there too...they import them from Russis, China and Europe....

"it isn't"....

Yeah well that's my point.

No. Your point is that putting a tax stamp on guns will make them more expensive, my point is it won't matter because our criminals don't use them. If our criminals wanted to use them, your tax stamp and increased price would not stop them...as it doesn't stop them in Europe or Latin America...

Do you realize how dumb that sounds?

I'll try again. Criminals used to use machine guns in this country. Then we introduced the tax stamp process and stopped all new machine guns sales in this country. Now machine guns are not used for crime in this country. And in response you say well people still use guns in Europe? Uhmm hello McFly!!! Anyone in there?

The next tax stamp will be for at least one of high caliber rifles "scary" sniper rifles or loading more then some number of rounds in a gun... probably 3 rounds going by what they did to shot guns in some states.

Again, it's not about stopping crime with guns, it's about making the population weak and put in a position to need more and bigger government to come to their rescue.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

There is NOTHING to debate. The highest court in our land has rendered its verdict and that is that we the people may own firearms to protect ourselves and our families. You can't go higher than the Supreme Court.
Of the 75 to 80 million private gun owners like myself who possess the 250 to 300 million guns spread out over this great nation, almost NONE of them commit crimes. We use them for hunting, sport shooting at targets, or collectibles (antiques). The ones committing crimes are criminals who "steal" weapons, either from homes or from gun dealerships, then use them or sell them to other criminals. Occasionally, some nut job who has a clean record gets one. In China, a man stabbed many children in a school. Another went about stabbing people in the street. The Boston Bombers used a pressure cooker. People have deliberately run people down with cars, killing them; still others have blocked exits of structures and burned people to death. There's always going to be some nut job. Just remain aware of your surroundings and if you see someone who you believe "might" be a danger, call a cop to investigate.

 

[danielpalos]

There is NOTHING to debate. The highest court in our land has rendered its verdict and that is that we the people may own firearms to protect ourselves and our families. You can't go higher than the Supreme Court.
Of the 75 to 80 million private gun owners like myself who possess the 250 to 300 million guns spread out over this great nation, almost NONE of them commit crimes. We use them for hunting, sport shooting at targets, or collectibles (antiques). The ones committing crimes are criminals who "steal" weapons, either from homes or from gun dealerships, then use them or sell them to other criminals. Occasionally, some nut job who has a clean record gets one. In China, a man stabbed many children in a school. Another went about stabbing people in the street. The Boston Bombers used a pressure cooker. People have deliberately run people down with cars, killing them; still others have blocked exits of structures and burned people to death. There's always going to be some nut job. Just remain aware of your surroundings and if you see someone who you believe "might" be a danger, call a cop to investigate.

Those rights are secured in State Constitutions not our federal Constitution which Only secures Due Process, not rights in property.

All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

The federal Constitution addresses the 2nd Amendment and the Supreme Court rendered its interpretation on the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership. "We can own firearms." This clearly trumps any and all state constitutions with regards to "gun ownership." That decision does not address how many firearms, or how they are to be stored, only that ownership of a firearm is a citizens right. State Constitutions may not conflict with or supercede matters addressed in the Federal Constitution. The Supreme Courts responsibility is to render decisions on cases brought before them, as related to the Constitution. I recall that much from my Constitutional Law class in college when going for my Criminal Justice degree.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I don't own a gun; and I fully attribute that to the federal government violating the second amendment and infringing upon my rights.

 

[danielpalos]

The federal Constitution addresses the 2nd Amendment and the Supreme Court rendered its interpretation on the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership. "We can own firearms." This clearly trumps any and all state constitutions with regards to "gun ownership." That decision does not address how many firearms, or how they are to be stored, only that ownership of a firearm is a citizens right. State Constitutions may not conflict with or supercede matters addressed in the Federal Constitution. The Supreme Courts responsibility is to render decisions on cases brought before them, as related to the Constitution. I recall that much from my Constitutional Law class in college when going for my Criminal Justice degree.

Those rights in private property are secured in State Constitutions with the terms, acquire and possess, not our federal Constitution which Only secures Due Process, not rights in property.

Simply Because, our Founding Fathers really really were that wise.

 

[danielpalos]

I don't own a gun; and I fully attribute that to the federal government violating the second amendment and infringing upon my rights.

I don't own a gun simply because I expect gun lovers to be drafted first for any nationalized and socialized public policies the Right can come up with.

 

[Brain357]

Machine guns, for all practical intent, don't exist for general consumption. FACT

They do. There are a great many out there and they are available for purchase for anyone that can legally buy a gun.
The fact that you have to pay a transfer tax to buy one does nothing to prevent them from being used in a crime.
Fact.

And so, your point remains unproven.

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

 

[2aguy]

They do. There are a great many out there and they are available for purchase for anyone that can legally buy a gun.
The fact that you have to pay a transfer tax to buy one does nothing to prevent them from being used in a crime.
Fact.

And so, your point remains unproven.

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

 

[danielpalos]

I believe we merely need to end the extra-Constitutional Prohibition of our War on Drugs. It was a mistake with alcohol and alcohol is a, powerful mood altering drug.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why are you making up bull shit and trying to pass it off as fact? This government does not hand out tax stamps for machine guns to Americans who are known killers. This government will however buy you a machine gun if you are a member of a criminal cartel who is not an American. Get your facts straight, you are embarrassing yourself.

You can't get a tax stamp if you are a criminal. And you can't buy new machine guns at the store even if you are not a criminal because it's EFFING ILLEGAL TO SELL NEW MACHINE GUNS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. What part of these VERY SIMPLE FACTS IS GOING OVER YOUR HEAD?

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

Again... it's not about reducing crime. Gun control is about controlling guns. If they wanted to control crime it would be called crime control.

 

[2aguy]

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

Again... it's not about reducing crime. Gun control is about controlling guns. If they wanted to control crime it would be called crime control.

What? Since none of the measures you or the other guys push would achieve gun control or crime control...what is your point?

 

[RKMBrown]

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

Again... it's not about reducing crime. Gun control is about controlling guns. If they wanted to control crime it would be called crime control.

What? Since none of the measures you or the other guys push would achieve gun control or crime control...what is your point?

My point? I thought we covered that. The OP keeps claiming the gun control folks have failed to come up with a plan that would have an effect. I pointed to the tax stamp process that did have an effect. You can't deny that the tax stamp process has reduced the number of machine guns that are available to the public. It's a fact that can't be escaped.

I'm personally against the tax stamp process. I'm personally against pre-crime laws. I'm personally against gun control in pretty much all forms. Though I can see the merits of keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of even law abiding citizens. I don't think I need a bio/chemical weapons or even tactical nuclear devices. I don't think the framers were talking about personal devices that could be used to take over the planet or anything of that scale. But I might want to have my own tank. You never know when you might need a tracked vehicle with a lot of armor plating. Those IRS folks can be very persistent.

 

[danielpalos]

And criminals can't have any guns at all.....and yet they get them and murder 8,454 people...in 2013.......so again, if they wanted machine guns they would get them.

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

Again... it's not about reducing crime. Gun control is about controlling guns. If they wanted to control crime it would be called crime control.

People are committing crimes with guns; thus, as is claimed by some, control access to guns (with or without a prescription) and control access to the "persuaders" that may be used to persuade others to "hand over their money" through the coercive use of force without any authority of a State or a well regulated militia.

 

[danielpalos]

If guns were made too expensive to own criminals would switch to bats and knives... so what? It's not about stopping crime, it's about reducing the ability of people to defend themselves in an adequate fashion from government control. The plain fact is you can reduce crimes that are committed with a certain weapon by making that weapon expensive as hell.

You two are missing the point here.

If guns were made too expensive only poor law abiding people couldn't get them.....the criminals would just steal them or buy them through people who can pass background checks, like they already do......

guns are completely illegal in France...that doesn't stop their criminals from getting fully automatic weapons and 30 round magazines easily.........so making them expensive won't stop them either....when you steal something it is free....

And france has a very low rate of gun crime.

Because their criminals choose not to use guns...but they have easy access to them when they want or need them. Europeans were always less violent because of their culture. Of course, they did kill over 12 million innocent men, women and children by marching them off to death camps....let's not forget to add that to their total and to their guilt....

Again... it's not about reducing crime. Gun control is about controlling guns. If they wanted to control crime it would be called crime control.

What? Since none of the measures you or the other guys push would achieve gun control or crime control...what is your point?

I believe we merely need to end the extra-Constitutional Prohibition of our War on Drugs. It was a mistake with alcohol and alcohol is a, powerful mood altering drug.