How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[edthecynic]

Quantum Physics predicts there are as many as 11 dimensions in our universe.

PHYSICAL dimensions!

Uhm... not really. We can SAY they are "physical dimensions" because they relate to physical sciences, but since these extra dimensions have not been confirmed or observed, we can't define them as anything, physical or not.

But you do make an interesting point... Let's imagine something for a moment... Let's say that somewhere in the future, science and physics confirms some cosmic evidence for spiritual nature and energy... the age old secret is revealed, God is proven scientifically to exist as a form of spiritual energy supported by physics. Is God still a spiritual entity or is God now a physical entity? Would God change or would our perspective of God change?

The extra dimensions have been derived mathematically and it is only a matter of time before they will be probed by gravity, once we have a workable quantum theory of gravity.

Well, if that happened God would no longer be personified, so our perception of God as a supernatural person will change.

They have been theorized mathematically, not derived. The dimensions have to be there for quantum mechanics to work, but we have no perception of them, we have no way to measure or examine them at this time. Our material universe exists in four-dimensional reality, that's what we can evaluate and define through physical science. Theoretical physics goes a step beyond, and this is where quantum physics comes in. These are not traditionally observable or testable theories, they are supportive of the mechanics we can observe at the subatomic level.

Yes, our perception of God would change, and that's my point. Supernatural is simply things not currently explained by physical nature. It doesn't mean they can't eventually be explained. Once they are explained, we no longer classify them as supernatural things. So when I hear you say God is Supernatural, it makes me think you don't believe God is explained by physical nature. This makes rational sense because physical science hasn't proven God exists. BUT... If Science always could explain physical nature, there would be no need for Science. Science would simply render itself obsolete if it already knew everything about physical nature.

Therefore, the possibility exists that God and spiritual energy does exist and is part of physical nature but we've not been able to discover this through physical science. Like the Atom and Microbe of the past, it is something we haven't developed the enhancement to our senses to be able to perceive and observe. Like the other 7 dimensions in quantum theory.

No, natural phenomena we cannot explain are unexplained natural phenomena, not supernatural.

 

[sealybobo]

...even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years.

Hmmm... Mindless rules operating in a finely tuned system for billions of years?

I absolutely LOVE for people who don't believe in God to attempt explaining life and the universe without God. It never fails, they manage to catch their britches on the fence every time. Where did these "rules" come from? Mindlessness, you said... but that makes no logical sense. It seems that any established "rule" would have to be contemplated and put in place by something.

Now, the most important point to make on this observation is, we don't know how life originated. So this person is making the assumptive statement that we somehow know how life arose, and that's simply a lie. We do not know how life arose and every conceivable theory science offers is a contradiction to Biogenesis and has never been proven.

Gods never been proven.

What I said was a theory. God doesn't even qualify as a theory. It is only a hypothesis.

 

[sealybobo]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Speed of Light
Gravitational Constant
Planck's Constant
Planck Mass-Energy
Mass of Electron, Proton, Neutron
Mass of Up, Down, Strange Quark
Ratio of Electron to Proton Mass
Gravitational Coupling Constant
Cosmological Constant
Hubble Constant
Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value

The above values are precise and constant. If ANY of these values were off by just a hair, there could be no interacting life of any kind, anywhere. There would be no universe as we know it. It IS finely tuned, there is no question it is finely tuned, and anyone who doesn't believe this is a science-illiterate moron.

Of course with the disclaimer "as we know it" makes what you say a half-truth only. If those items you ticked off were different, a universe and life etc could still exist, just not "as we know it."

So the logical conclusion is WE are tuned by those items, NOT they are tuned for US!

Well life as we understand life couldn't exist because there wouldn't be any planets or stars and there wouldn't be any chemistry or compounds. None of those things would exist, but what would exist instead, I have no idea and neither do you.

The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life. From there, we can be as philosophical as you please, but that's the only logical conclusion there is. We don't know if other universes exist. We don't know what might have happened in an alternate universe. We can only go by what we know of our own universe and the finely tuned constants which make it conducive to life.

And god doesn't exist.

 

[edthecynic]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Speed of Light
Gravitational Constant
Planck's Constant
Planck Mass-Energy
Mass of Electron, Proton, Neutron
Mass of Up, Down, Strange Quark
Ratio of Electron to Proton Mass
Gravitational Coupling Constant
Cosmological Constant
Hubble Constant
Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value

The above values are precise and constant. If ANY of these values were off by just a hair, there could be no interacting life of any kind, anywhere. There would be no universe as we know it. It IS finely tuned, there is no question it is finely tuned, and anyone who doesn't believe this is a science-illiterate moron.

Of course with the disclaimer "as we know it" makes what you say a half-truth only. If those items you ticked off were different, a universe and life etc could still exist, just not "as we know it."

So the logical conclusion is WE are tuned by those items, NOT they are tuned for US!

Well life as we understand life couldn't exist because there wouldn't be any planets or stars and there wouldn't be any chemistry or compounds. None of those things would exist, but what would exist instead, I have no idea and neither do you.

The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life. From there, we can be as philosophical as you please, but that's the only logical conclusion there is. We don't know if other universes exist. We don't know what might have happened in an alternate universe. We can only go by what we know of our own universe and the finely tuned constants which make it conducive to life.

That isn't the least bit logical. It is logical that life conforms to the universe, not the universe conforms to life!

 

[Boss]

So explain to us, as you dodged the question on so many occasions, how such things as planetary bombardment by meteors, catastrophic explosions of stars, black holes gobbling up entire solar systems, the relative clusters of galaxies in the universe accompanied by huge swaths of emptiness, etc., how that equates to "finely tuned" by your invented gawds?

Well, we've discovered most of the emptiness is not empty space. It is dark matter. We call it dark matter because it's not visible or physical in presence like normal matter. We know very little about it other than it comprises 96% of the universe.

The universe is so finely tuned, it has created planets with atmospheres which bombarding meteors can't penetrate because of other cosmological constants. In spite of all the catastrophic explosions and black hole gobbling, a planet like ours can exist and be a habitat for life.

I've answered your question, but you somehow want to continue thinking that "fine tuned" means the same as "orderly and stable," and it doesn't.

 

[Boss]

And god doesn't exist.

Where is your evidence?

 

[Boss]

That isn't the least bit logical. It is logical that life conforms to the universe, not the universe conforms to life!

We're not discussing conformity.

 

[Boss]

Boss: The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life.
That isn't the least bit logical.

Really?

The universe exists.... LOGICAL.
The universe is fine tuned... LOGICAL
The universe is conducive to life... LOGICAL

Looks like it's "every bit" logical.
Can you explain your retarded remark?

 

[sealybobo]

And god doesn't exist.

Where is your evidence?

Do I have to prove the lochness monster is not real?

Can you make any unfalsifiable claim and its true until I prove it wrong? Or is your claim just as probable as it not being true?

What are the odds nessy is real boss? Do you think its 50 50? Hint. Its not.

Prove he is real!

 

[sealybobo]

Boss: The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life.
That isn't the least bit logical.

Really?

The universe exists.... LOGICAL.
The universe is fine tuned... LOGICAL
The universe is conducive to life... LOGICAL

Looks like it's "every bit" logical.
Can you explain your retarded remark?

B might be wrong

 

[Hollie]

So explain to us, as you dodged the question on so many occasions, how such things as planetary bombardment by meteors, catastrophic explosions of stars, black holes gobbling up entire solar systems, the relative clusters of galaxies in the universe accompanied by huge swaths of emptiness, etc., how that equates to "finely tuned" by your invented gawds?

Well, we've discovered most of the emptiness is not empty space. It is dark matter. We call it dark matter because it's not visible or physical in presence like normal matter. We know very little about it other than it comprises 96% of the universe.

The universe is so finely tuned, it has created planets with atmospheres which bombarding meteors can't penetrate because of other cosmological constants. In spite of all the catastrophic explosions and black hole gobbling, a planet like ours can exist and be a habitat for life.

I've answered your question, but you somehow want to continue thinking that "fine tuned" means the same as "orderly and stable," and it doesn't.

I'm afraid you're simply parroting the mantras of your fundamentalist ministries. Nothing in your "finely tuned" mantra makes sense in light of a violent and chaotic universe. "Finely tuned" is not defined by clusters of galaxies and large, empty voids of space. You really should become familiar with the subject matter. You won't do that by sifting through the pages of the Institute for Creation Research.

You want to press your gawds and spirit realms. You're free to do that. However, don't expect others to accept your reciting of religious fundamentalist blathering as fact.

 

[edthecynic]

That isn't the least bit logical. It is logical that life conforms to the universe, not the universe conforms to life!

We're not discussing conformity.

Yes we are, you are too stupid to know it.

 

[edthecynic]

Boss: The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life.
That isn't the least bit logical.

Really?

The universe exists.... LOGICAL.
The universe is fine tuned... LOGICAL
The universe is conducive to life... LOGICAL

Looks like it's "every bit" logical.
Can you explain your retarded remark?

The universe is not fine tuned to life, life is fine tuned by the universe, you have it ass backwards which is not logical no matter how you spin it.

 

[PostmodernProph]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

all you needed to do to win the argument was find one who disagreed......you couldn't.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Science evaluates many phenomenon which are not observable.

no, that would be the realm of science fiction......

Actually, that would be the realm of science.

what realm of science studies the unobservable?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Victor Strenger and Fred C Adams don't. In fact they argue against it. They are both astrophysics.

though they admittedly have to presume non-carbon based life forms to get around its necessity.......

So we can agree your goofy comment was pointless and a waste of time.

no merely that you can't come up with an astrophysicist that doesn't acknowledge our universe is finely tuned and that our part of it is finely tuned for the carbon based life that exists on it......that we can agree on.......

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Let's say the universe is finely tuned just for us.

the universe is finely tuned for the existence of a universe.....our part of it is finely tuned for our existence......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Why?

because the possible number of planets capable of supporting life that could orbit any star would be zero, one, or two (two would require planets in totally opposite and synchronized orbits that could never collide.....if you start with an average of five planets orbiting a star and 4 to 5 of them cannot support life and 0 to 1 can, simple math tells you that there is no life on most planets.........

 

[PostmodernProph]

And god doesn't exist.

wouldn't "god doesn't exist" simply be an hypothesis?.....

 

[Boss]

And god doesn't exist.

Where is your evidence?

Do I have to prove the lochness monster is not real?

Can you make any unfalsifiable claim and its true until I prove it wrong? Or is your claim just as probable as it not being true?

What are the odds nessy is real boss? Do you think its 50 50? Hint. Its not.

Prove he is real!

If you are going to make the definitive statement, then you need evidence to support it. I'm fine with "I don't believe God exists!" That's not definitive, it's an opinion. You don't need to present any evidence to support an opinion. It's when you make it definitive.. "God doesn't exist!" You need to support that supposition with evidence and you haven't. This is how the most basic science works, so if you can't comprehend that, it speaks for how competent you are in science.

Or is your claim just as probable as it not being true?

Yes. My claim that God exists is just as probable as your claim God doesn't exist. Neither of us can prove our statement true or prove the other statement invalid. You don't get extra points because you value your opinion more than mine, but that's how you apparently think science evaluates things.

 

[Boss]

Boss: The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life.
That isn't the least bit logical.

Really?

The universe exists.... LOGICAL.
The universe is fine tuned... LOGICAL
The universe is conducive to life... LOGICAL

Looks like it's "every bit" logical.
Can you explain your retarded remark?

B might be wrong

Nope. Sorry. Every astrophysicist agrees the universe is finely tuned. They can't deny the cosmological constant. They can't deny the gravitational constant. They can't deny the dozen or so parameters which are set precisely so that our universe can exist. They can attempt to explain how this is possible without God, but they can't deny the reality of a finely tuned universe.

As for being wrong, anything can be wrong... even when we're sure it's right. We can't know truth, we can only believe we know truth. Reality could all be an illusion.