How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Boss]

...even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years.

Hmmm... Mindless rules operating in a finely tuned system for billions of years?

I absolutely LOVE for people who don't believe in God to attempt explaining life and the universe without God. It never fails, they manage to catch their britches on the fence every time. Where did these "rules" come from? Mindlessness, you said... but that makes no logical sense. It seems that any established "rule" would have to be contemplated and put in place by something.

Now, the most important point to make on this observation is, we don't know how life originated. So this person is making the assumptive statement that we somehow know how life arose, and that's simply a lie. We do not know how life arose and every conceivable theory science offers is a contradiction to Biogenesis and has never been proven.

 

[Steven_R]

Every astrophysicist on the planet agrees the universe is finely tuned. ~Boss

Find one who disputes it.

Victor Strenger and Fred C Adams don't. In fact they argue against it. They are both astrophysics.

though they admittedly have to presume non-carbon based life forms to get around its necessity.......

So we can agree your goofy comment was pointless and a waste of time.

no merely that you can't come up with an astrophysicist that doesn't acknowledge our universe is finely tuned and that our part of it is finely tuned for the carbon based life that exists on it......that we can agree on.......

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Let's say the universe is finely tuned just for us. Why bother creating such a wonderful universe with all the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology to support humans and then create the universe in such a way that pretty much the entire universe can kill us all? There are any number of ways the beautiful night sky objects can simply wipe out humanity in an instant, from the vacuum of space to radiation to supernovas and gamma ray bursts to black holes to cosmic hammer blows from asteroids and planets and comets hitting the Earth. Even the Earth itself goes out of its way to kill us. 75% of the planet is covered in water and will kill us via drowning and hypothermia and exposure. Whole regions are too hot, too arid , or too cold for humans to live in. Weather patters such as hurricanes and tornados. Geological problems exist like mudslides and earthquake and volcanic eruptions. Forest fires, predators, bacteria, waterborne parasites, famine, lack of clean water.

If the universe was created, the Creator went out of His way to make the place a death-trap for His most beloved of creations.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.

A hallucination.

Near-death experiences.

A reaction to the failing of the brain.

Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Generally fraud.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

Psychics are frauds - 100% of the time.

{James Randi, a.k.a. The Amazing Randi, magician and

author of numerous works skeptical of paranormal, supernatural, and pseudoscientific claims has for about ten years offered "a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power."}







Randi 1 000 000 paranormal challenge - The Skeptic s Dictionary - Skepdic.com

 

[Steven_R]

I absolutely LOVE for people who don't believe in God to attempt explaining life and the universe without God. It never fails, they manage to catch their britches on the fence every time. Where did these "rules" come from? Mindlessness, you said... but that makes no logical sense. It seems that any established "rule" would have to be contemplated and put in place by something.

The laws the universe operates by aren't created by anyone or anything. They just are. Science tries to understand those laws, but it may just be that the universe is what it is because of the way it shook out.

 

[Boss]

- you are the one attributing a "finely tuned universe" to Spirituality, el pseudo ...

not one blade of grass from 200 million years ago to the present or for all eternity will ever be the same.

I just said we have a finely tuned universe. I didn't attribute it to anything. I have no dispute on blades of grass all being different. However, from blades of grass to cells in the human body to subatomic quarks to massive stars... everything follows a specific pattern dictated by finely tuned constants. Certain values and ratios are repeated in everything from forms of life to chemical bonding.

Denying the universe is finely tuned is delusional... on the order of believing the earth is flat. It simply contradicts what we know are the facts. The reason we see ape-women like Hollie and Neanderthals like silly boob and Inevitable trying to refute a finely tuned universe is because when we understand this is the case, it raises the question of who the tuner is? Chance or Design? Well... if it's finely tuned, that sort of rules out chance.

Imagine 12 roulette wheels, each one has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 numbers. The wheels all begin to roll and they ALL land on the ONLY one specific number that makes everything work.... that's the level of "luck" we need if chance explains the finely tuned universe.

 

[Boss]

I absolutely LOVE for people who don't believe in God to attempt explaining life and the universe without God. It never fails, they manage to catch their britches on the fence every time. Where did these "rules" come from? Mindlessness, you said... but that makes no logical sense. It seems that any established "rule" would have to be contemplated and put in place by something.

The laws the universe operates by aren't created by anyone or anything. They just are. Science tries to understand those laws, but it may just be that the universe is what it is because of the way it shook out.

The laws the universe operates by aren't created by anyone or anything.

Where is your evidence?

 

[Steven_R]

There is no evidence of any outside influence. Until someone can show that outside evidence, it's not considered.

You want me to put God in anywhere in science, show me God.

 

[edthecynic]

Quantum Physics predicts there are as many as 11 dimensions in our universe.

PHYSICAL dimensions!

Uhm... not really. We can SAY they are "physical dimensions" because they relate to physical sciences, but since these extra dimensions have not been confirmed or observed, we can't define them as anything, physical or not.

But you do make an interesting point... Let's imagine something for a moment... Let's say that somewhere in the future, science and physics confirms some cosmic evidence for spiritual nature and energy... the age old secret is revealed, God is proven scientifically to exist as a form of spiritual energy supported by physics. Is God still a spiritual entity or is God now a physical entity? Would God change or would our perspective of God change?

The extra dimensions have been derived mathematically and it is only a matter of time before they will be probed by gravity, once we have a workable quantum theory of gravity.

Well, if that happened God would no longer be personified, so our perception of God as a supernatural person will change.

 

[edthecynic]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Speed of Light
Gravitational Constant
Planck's Constant
Planck Mass-Energy
Mass of Electron, Proton, Neutron
Mass of Up, Down, Strange Quark
Ratio of Electron to Proton Mass
Gravitational Coupling Constant
Cosmological Constant
Hubble Constant
Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value

The above values are precise and constant. If ANY of these values were off by just a hair, there could be no interacting life of any kind, anywhere. There would be no universe as we know it. It IS finely tuned, there is no question it is finely tuned, and anyone who doesn't believe this is a science-illiterate moron.

Of course with the disclaimer "as we know it" makes what you say a half-truth only. If those items you ticked off were different, a universe and life etc could still exist, just not "as we know it."

So the logical conclusion is WE are tuned by those items, NOT they are tuned for US!

 

[Boss]

Quantum Physics predicts there are as many as 11 dimensions in our universe.

PHYSICAL dimensions!

Uhm... not really. We can SAY they are "physical dimensions" because they relate to physical sciences, but since these extra dimensions have not been confirmed or observed, we can't define them as anything, physical or not.

But you do make an interesting point... Let's imagine something for a moment... Let's say that somewhere in the future, science and physics confirms some cosmic evidence for spiritual nature and energy... the age old secret is revealed, God is proven scientifically to exist as a form of spiritual energy supported by physics. Is God still a spiritual entity or is God now a physical entity? Would God change or would our perspective of God change?

The extra dimensions have been derived mathematically and it is only a matter of time before they will be probed by gravity, once we have a workable quantum theory of gravity.

Well, if that happened God would no longer be personified, so our perception of God as a supernatural person will change.

They have been theorized mathematically, not derived. The dimensions have to be there for quantum mechanics to work, but we have no perception of them, we have no way to measure or examine them at this time. Our material universe exists in four-dimensional reality, that's what we can evaluate and define through physical science. Theoretical physics goes a step beyond, and this is where quantum physics comes in. These are not traditionally observable or testable theories, they are supportive of the mechanics we can observe at the subatomic level.

Yes, our perception of God would change, and that's my point. Supernatural is simply things not currently explained by physical nature. It doesn't mean they can't eventually be explained. Once they are explained, we no longer classify them as supernatural things. So when I hear you say God is Supernatural, it makes me think you don't believe God is explained by physical nature. This makes rational sense because physical science hasn't proven God exists. BUT... If Science always could explain physical nature, there would be no need for Science. Science would simply render itself obsolete if it already knew everything about physical nature.

Therefore, the possibility exists that God and spiritual energy does exist and is part of physical nature but we've not been able to discover this through physical science. Like the Atom and Microbe of the past, it is something we haven't developed the enhancement to our senses to be able to perceive and observe. Like the other 7 dimensions in quantum theory.

 

[Boss]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Speed of Light
Gravitational Constant
Planck's Constant
Planck Mass-Energy
Mass of Electron, Proton, Neutron
Mass of Up, Down, Strange Quark
Ratio of Electron to Proton Mass
Gravitational Coupling Constant
Cosmological Constant
Hubble Constant
Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value

The above values are precise and constant. If ANY of these values were off by just a hair, there could be no interacting life of any kind, anywhere. There would be no universe as we know it. It IS finely tuned, there is no question it is finely tuned, and anyone who doesn't believe this is a science-illiterate moron.

Of course with the disclaimer "as we know it" makes what you say a half-truth only. If those items you ticked off were different, a universe and life etc could still exist, just not "as we know it."

So the logical conclusion is WE are tuned by those items, NOT they are tuned for US!

Well life as we understand life couldn't exist because there wouldn't be any planets or stars and there wouldn't be any chemistry or compounds. None of those things would exist, but what would exist instead, I have no idea and neither do you.

The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life. From there, we can be as philosophical as you please, but that's the only logical conclusion there is. We don't know if other universes exist. We don't know what might have happened in an alternate universe. We can only go by what we know of our own universe and the finely tuned constants which make it conducive to life.

 

[Boss]

There is no evidence of any outside influence. Until someone can show that outside evidence, it's not considered.

You want me to put God in anywhere in science, show me God.

But there is evidence, you just don't recognize it as such.

The very laws of basic science are evidence of an outside influence. Matter cannot create matter. Energy cannot be destroyed or created. The universe is in motion, the Laws of Motion are evidence there had to be an outside influence. Physical nature cannot create itself, it's a paradox. Physical nature is part of a physical reality which exists in a space and time that physical nature could not have created. Biogenesis states that life comes from life, and this is confirmed in every living thing humans have ever known of. We cannot produce life with inorganic materials. Origination of life has no physical explanation, only theories which contradict biogenesis.

I've already presented a list of physical constants which have to be precisely as they are or none of this exists. Had the gravitational constant been off by 1:10^120 the planets and stars could not have formed. Important chemical bonds in the gases wouldn't have been made. Certain compounds, such as H2O, wouldn't exist.

 

[Inevitable]

Every astrophysicist on the planet agrees the universe is finely tuned. ~Boss

Find one who disputes it.

Victor Strenger and Fred C Adams don't. In fact they argue against it. They are both astrophysics.

though they admittedly have to presume non-carbon based life forms to get around its necessity.......

So we can agree your goofy comment was pointless and a waste of time.

no merely that you can't come up with an astrophysicist that doesn't acknowledge our universe is finely tuned and that our part of it is finely tuned for the carbon based life that exists on it......that we can agree on.......

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

He is changing the subject. He was talking earlier about paranormal occurrences and other such things.

 

[Hollie]

There is no evidence of any outside influence. Until someone can show that outside evidence, it's not considered.

You want me to put God in anywhere in science, show me God.

But there is evidence, you just don't recognize it as such.

The very laws of basic science are evidence of an outside influence. Matter cannot create matter. Energy cannot be destroyed or created. The universe is in motion, the Laws of Motion are evidence there had to be an outside influence. Physical nature cannot create itself, it's a paradox. Physical nature is part of a physical reality which exists in a space and time that physical nature could not have created. Biogenesis states that life comes from life, and this is confirmed in every living thing humans have ever known of. We cannot produce life with inorganic materials. Origination of life has no physical explanation, only theories which contradict biogenesis.

I've already presented a list of physical constants which have to be precisely as they are or none of this exists. Had the gravitational constant been off by 1:10^120 the planets and stars could not have formed. Important chemical bonds in the gases wouldn't have been made. Certain compounds, such as H2O, wouldn't exist.

"The very laws of basic science are evidence of an outside influence."

What nonsense!

 

[Hollie]

- you are the one attributing a "finely tuned universe" to Spirituality, el pseudo ...

not one blade of grass from 200 million years ago to the present or for all eternity will ever be the same.

I just said we have a finely tuned universe. I didn't attribute it to anything. I have no dispute on blades of grass all being different. However, from blades of grass to cells in the human body to subatomic quarks to massive stars... everything follows a specific pattern dictated by finely tuned constants. Certain values and ratios are repeated in everything from forms of life to chemical bonding.

Denying the universe is finely tuned is delusional... on the order of believing the earth is flat. It simply contradicts what we know are the facts. The reason we see ape-women like Hollie and Neanderthals like silly boob and Inevitable trying to refute a finely tuned universe is because when we understand this is the case, it raises the question of who the tuner is? Chance or Design? Well... if it's finely tuned, that sort of rules out chance.

Imagine 12 roulette wheels, each one has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 numbers. The wheels all begin to roll and they ALL land on the ONLY one specific number that makes everything work.... that's the level of "luck" we need if chance explains the finely tuned universe.

You rattle on repeatedly with the "finely tuned universe" meme. Like many unsupported statements you make, there's always a lack of evidence appended to your bellicose pronouncements.

 

[Hollie]

Victor Strenger and Fred C Adams don't. In fact they argue against it. They are both astrophysics.

though they admittedly have to presume non-carbon based life forms to get around its necessity.......

So we can agree your goofy comment was pointless and a waste of time.

no merely that you can't come up with an astrophysicist that doesn't acknowledge our universe is finely tuned and that our part of it is finely tuned for the carbon based life that exists on it......that we can agree on.......

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

He is changing the subject. He was talking earlier about paranormal occurrences and other such things.

He typically retreats into arguments that require belief in magic and supernaturalism. He tends to stumble when presented with objective reality.

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

I speak of the taditional knowledge in Islam.

It is obvious that there is more to life than science. There is something beyond science. You may have a dream and later sees it happening in real life. Those who read the horoscopes frequently know very well that there is more than what we see, even though horoscopes mix one truth with 1000 lies. What science came up with, that man is the result of evolution of apes is a clear proof that there is more to life than science.

The most direct proofs of the existence of an Almighty God are the pathways in the sky above our heads, the rain coming down from the sky and the constellations of the Zodiac. The stars are symmetrical in the sky, if you pay attention and notice the shapes and patterns. Just as you would know from footprints that there is a walker, you know from His act that the Almighty God exists, Doer of all that happens.

One may do some wondrous things without his religion being true. He may be helped by some beings we do not see and who are not necessarily good, and may be evil. It is actually exactly that.

Horoscopes?

 

[sealybobo]

So you believe a fairytale without proof but doubt the high probability that life is not rare in the universe?

upon what do you base this "probability"?......

The billions of other suns and planets in our universe

and "probably" there is no life at all on almost all of them.......

Why?

 

[Hollie]

How pointless, as usual. Bossy made a completely bogus argument wherein he claimed all astrophysicists agree the universe is finely tuned. He failed to support that argument just as you have failed to support it.

Speed of Light
Gravitational Constant
Planck's Constant
Planck Mass-Energy
Mass of Electron, Proton, Neutron
Mass of Up, Down, Strange Quark
Ratio of Electron to Proton Mass
Gravitational Coupling Constant
Cosmological Constant
Hubble Constant
Higgs Vacuum Expectation Value

The above values are precise and constant. If ANY of these values were off by just a hair, there could be no interacting life of any kind, anywhere. There would be no universe as we know it. It IS finely tuned, there is no question it is finely tuned, and anyone who doesn't believe this is a science-illiterate moron.

Of course with the disclaimer "as we know it" makes what you say a half-truth only. If those items you ticked off were different, a universe and life etc could still exist, just not "as we know it."

So the logical conclusion is WE are tuned by those items, NOT they are tuned for US!

Well life as we understand life couldn't exist because there wouldn't be any planets or stars and there wouldn't be any chemistry or compounds. None of those things would exist, but what would exist instead, I have no idea and neither do you.

The logical conclusion is, the universe exists in a finely tuned state which is conducive to life. From there, we can be as philosophical as you please, but that's the only logical conclusion there is. We don't know if other universes exist. We don't know what might have happened in an alternate universe. We can only go by what we know of our own universe and the finely tuned constants which make it conducive to life.

Your "because I say so" arguments are tedious and time wasting.

You so desperately want to impose your invented gawds and your imagined spirit realms on others that you feverishly nod and smile at the putrid bile being barfed out by your fundamentalist ministries.

So explain to us, as you dodged the question on so many occasions, how such things as planetary bombardment by meteors, catastrophic explosions of stars, black holes gobbling up entire solar systems, the relative clusters of galaxies in the universe accompanied by huge swaths of emptiness, etc., how that equates to "finely tuned" by your invented gawds?

 

[sealybobo]

Quantum Physics predicts there are as many as 11 dimensions in our universe.

PHYSICAL dimensions!

Uhm... not really. We can SAY they are "physical dimensions" because they relate to physical sciences, but since these extra dimensions have not been confirmed or observed, we can't define them as anything, physical or not.

But you do make an interesting point... Let's imagine something for a moment... Let's say that somewhere in the future, science and physics confirms some cosmic evidence for spiritual nature and energy... the age old secret is revealed, God is proven scientifically to exist as a form of spiritual energy supported by physics. Is God still a spiritual entity or is God now a physical entity? Would God change or would our perspective of God change?

When people stop believing in Jesus religion will move the goal post more towards your vague generic god that no one claims visited and wrote a book.

Although you've even said you talk with it and it responds. Write a new bible boss. Get crazy Emily to help you write it because it has to be real confusing and long so people have to interpret and debate what the fuck she says.