How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

[Cardinal Carminative]

It's the amount of time spent underground that counts. If the plant has been at the surface instead of underground for millions of years it's going to have C-14 as opposed to zero and a different ratio (fraction) of C-12 to C-13.

Can you explain the role of burial and catagenesis in the fractionation of 12C and 13C. I am not tracking on it. I know why 14C makes a diff with age but I’m not sure about the stable isotopes. Thanks!

 

[Grumblenuts]

Can you explain the role of burial and catagenesis in the fractionation of 12C and 13C. I am not tracking on it. I know why 14C makes a diff with age but I’m not sure about the stable isotopes. Thanks!

Okay, but my understanding is likely nothing compared to a geologist like Crick. Thing is, all buried fuel loses its C-14 fairly quickly looking back in geologic time scales {eta -- because it's not being bombarded with cosmic rays and so forth as it would be at Earth's surface}. So the C-12 to C-13 ratio is helpful when looking at ice cores, where C-14 is not. For example, data from carbon isotopes and CO2 amounts within any particular sediment layer yield characteristic variations over time allowing for long term comparison -- i.e. graphs. Now help the guy out with his isotope question, will ya.. LOL

I much prefer reading and providing good reading sources to splainin things myself. Why bother when it's usually all right there at your fingertips with a bit of searching?

 

[jc456]

Might want to add in "Learn what you are talking about" to your "mode of operation". LOL.

that's the qualifier I have over you. Drives you nuts.

 

[jc456]

What a stupid question! LOL.

why? you all think our footprint is dangerous to the globe. I am merely asking how much hotter are we making the earth? I haven't as of today, seen any information from the warmers on how different is our CO2 to nature? Do you know how hot 120 PPM of CO2 actually is?

 

[Grumblenuts]

please explain what an isotope is and why they get so much info from them?

This should help. {Tell 'em you're a student and see what happens.. Me? I have no idea}

Isotopes and mass spectrometry (article) | Khan Academy

Learn about isotopes and how they relate to the average atomic mass of an element. Find out how isotopes can be detected using mass spectrometry.

www.khanacademy.org

All matter is comprised of isotopes. Look at "The mass spectrum for an average sample of pure zirconium" near the end. An "average" sample of "pure" carbon isolated from burning the O2 off an "average" sample of "pure" CO2 would yield similar spikes for each isotope.

 

[Stann]

why? you all think our footprint is dangerous to the globe. I am merely asking how much hotter are we making the earth? I have as of today, seen any information from the warmers on how different is our CO2 to nature? Do you know how hot 120 PPM of CO2 actually is?

I realize you think you know a lot but you don't. You ask the stupidest questions. CO2 is an essential component in our atmosphere. If it all disappeared from the atmosphere we would lose the greenhouse effect all of the planet and we'd all freeze to death. Climate change is nothing new. It's been occurring since the Advent of the industrial age in 1750. In the beginning it's effects were negligible, but like anything else out of whack, the more it got out of whack, the more problems it caused. Today the atmosphere has basically 148% levels of CO2 ( 2020 ) more than prior to 1750. I'm putting this as simply as I can so you can understand. When you put gas in your car it runs well, try running it with six little bottles of any high mileage fuel treatment in the tank. The engine will run so hot it will probably burn up. The Earth is basically a closed system like an aquarium, or pressure cooker. We are changing things and not for the better. The real fun ( if you can call it that ) is just getting started and unless you make drastic changes, we will suffer those consequences for at least 50 years. It's going to be amazing to see what's left. No one has done enough and the debt has to be paid. I suggest that you stop this insanity start doing something to help the situation rather than hurt it.

 

[Paracetamol63]

This should help. {Tell 'em you're a student and see what happens.. Me? I have no idea}

Isotopes and mass spectrometry (article) | Khan Academy

Learn about isotopes and how they relate to the average atomic mass of an element. Find out how isotopes can be detected using mass spectrometry.

www.khanacademy.org

All matter is comprised of isotopes. Look at "The mass spectrum for an average sample of pure zirconium" near the end. An "average" sample of "pure" carbon isolated from burning the O2 off an "average" sample of "pure" CO2 would yield similar spikes for each isotope.

Thanks!

 

[abu afak]

I realize you think you know a lot but you don't. You ask the stupidest questions. CO2 is an essential component in our atmosphere. If it all disappeared from the atmosphere we would lose the greenhouse effect all of the planet and we'd all freeze to death. Climate change is nothing new. It's been occurring since the Advent of the industrial age in 1750. In the beginning it's effects were negligible, but like anything else out of whack, the more it got out of whack, the more problems it caused. Today the atmosphere has basically 148% levels of CO2 ( 2020 ) more than prior to 1750. I'm putting this as simply as I can so you can understand. When you put gas in your car it runs well, try running it with six little bottles of any high mileage fuel treatment in the tank. The engine will run so hot it will probably burn up. The Earth is basically a closed system like an aquarium, or pressure cooker. We are changing things and not for the better. The real fun ( if you can call it that ) is just getting started and unless you make drastic changes, we will suffer those consequences for at least 50 years. It's going to be amazing to see what's left. No one has done enough and the debt has to be paid. I suggest that you stop this insanity start doing something to help the situation rather than hurt it.

jc456 is a one-line (or 3 word) Harassment troll at 50-70 posts a day and is not worth responding to.
He'a JOKE with ZERO factual Content, ZERO links. Zero.
Ignore him. ding/ToddsterPatriot near the same.
`

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Montreal Protocols are a great blueprint for international cooperation. It's also a great example of how the "merchants of doubt" were brought on as well. Some of the usual scientists who sell their services to cast doubt on science (like in the tobacco-cancer link, acid rain and now climate change). One of them decreed that alternatives to CFC's would be far worse, more polluting and more dangerous and less effective so we shouldn't ban the CFC's that were causing the problem.

Of course, as in tobacco-cancer, acid rain and AGW the "merchant of doubt" was wrong.

The Montreal Protocols are a great blueprint for international cooperation.

There is a difference between switching to a different class of refrigerants and CO2 emissions.

One of them decreed that alternatives to CFC's would be far worse, more polluting and more dangerous

Which one?

 

[Paracetamol63]

The Montreal Protocols are a great blueprint for international cooperation.

There is a difference between switching to a different class of refrigerants and CO2 emissions.

But not how the "merchants of doubt" were leveraged. Just like they are today! Only folks like you who LISTEN to them don't know that their job is to create confusion...and historically they have been wrong 100% of the time.

One of them decreed that alternatives to CFC's would be far worse, more polluting and more dangerous

Which one?

I want to say S. Fred Singer, but I'm not entirely certain if it was him or Seitz.

 

[Paracetamol63]

jc456 is a one-line (or 3 word) Harassment troll at 50-70 posts a day and is not worth responding to.

`

I am beginning to realize that he never has anything of value to add and he doesn't seem to actually know anything sufficient to state it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

jc456 is a one-line (or 3 word) Harassment troll at 50-70 posts a day and is not worth responding to.
He'a JOKE with ZERO factual Content, ZERO links. Zero.
Ignore him. ding/ToddsterPatriot near the same.
`

How's Exxon's market cap looking lately?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

But not how the "merchants of doubt" were leveraged. Just like they are today! Only folks like you who LISTEN to them don't know that their job is to create confusion...and historically they have been wrong 100% of the time.



I want to say S. Fred Singer, but I'm not entirely certain if it was him or Seitz.

But not how the "merchants of doubt" were leveraged.

Leverage? You mean how changing your refrigerants is fairly simple, but costly, while eliminating CO2 (ignoring rising CO2 emissisions in China, India, etc.) is impossible and incredibly expensive?

 

[Stann]

jc456 is a one-line (or 3 word) Harassment troll at 50-70 posts a day and is not worth responding to.
He'a JOKE with ZERO factual Content, ZERO links. Zero.
Ignore him. ding/ToddsterPatriot near the same.
`

I understand that. I just hope he's redeemable. No one should have to go through life like that, it's very sad

 

[Stann]

I am beginning to realize that he never has anything of value to add and he doesn't seem to actually know anything sufficient to state it.

I don't know denigration can be a good thing if it's not overdone. Other than that you are very correct. I went through another series of posts with him and the same thing happened. The third time isn't a charm with him.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

This should help. {Tell 'em you're a student and see what happens.. Me? I have no idea}

Isotopes and mass spectrometry (article) | Khan Academy

Learn about isotopes and how they relate to the average atomic mass of an element. Find out how isotopes can be detected using mass spectrometry.

www.khanacademy.org

All matter is comprised of isotopes. Look at "The mass spectrum for an average sample of pure zirconium" near the end. An "average" sample of "pure" carbon isolated from burning the O2 off an "average" sample of "pure" CO2 would yield similar spikes for each isotope.

The 14-C bit is correct. But 12-C and 13-C are fractionated by the plants that created the coal. Plants in general tend to prefer lighter 12-C isotopes to the heavier 13-C and so they preferentially enrich it in 12-C.

Now, the question you and I both seem unclear on is: does catagenesis or diagenesis alter that? I am uncertain but it won't necessarily change the original phrase "vegetal and fossil fuels" because burning regular vegetation should, if I'm understanding the fractionation properly, lead to a general increase in 12-C content in atmospheric carbon.

There may be some degree to which coal, having been through catagenesis and diagenesis and had biological actions and thermal actions on the plant material, would have even more 12-C and thus stand out, I think it more overall appropriate to include vegetal as well as fossil fuels.


When it comes to 14-C the difference is that 14-C is the radioactive isotope and it is fixed at the time of death of the plant so as it ages it obviously loses 14-C which, as you rightly note, winds up with lower levels of 14-C represented in the atmospheric CO2. Something we did see prior to the 1960's and nuke air testing.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

But not how the "merchants of doubt" were leveraged.

Leverage?

Brought out and paraded around to create doubt in the science.

You mean how changing your refrigerants is fairly simple,

But it's not! CFC's are very good at what they do. Finding an alternative, as I understand it, required going with analogues of CFC's.

but costly, while eliminating CO2 (ignoring rising CO2 emissisions in China, India, etc.) is impossible and incredibly expensive?

It isn't impossible. Clearly humanity existed for thousands of years prior to industrialization. We CAN decrease it even today...and still enjoy our modern lifestyle! We need to seriously work on renewables and non-GHG energy (yeah, including nuclear).

We don't HAVE to be doing this.

And if we REALLY want to put the screws to China that's really simple! Just stop buying things. Pretty much everything, but yeah, just stop buying stuff. That'll put a damper on their economy.

 

[jc456]

This should help. {Tell 'em you're a student and see what happens.. Me? I have no idea}

Isotopes and mass spectrometry (article) | Khan Academy

Learn about isotopes and how they relate to the average atomic mass of an element. Find out how isotopes can be detected using mass spectrometry.

www.khanacademy.org

All matter is comprised of isotopes. Look at "The mass spectrum for an average sample of pure zirconium" near the end. An "average" sample of "pure" carbon isolated from burning the O2 off an "average" sample of "pure" CO2 would yield similar spikes for each isotope.

How come there are high pressure systems next to low pressure systems? Isn’t CO2 the same?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

How come there are high pressure systems next to low pressure systems? Isn’t CO2 the same?

What does pressure have to do with the carbon isotopes?

 

[jc456]

It isn't impossible. Clearly humanity existed for thousands of years prior to industrialization

Why do you need to decrease it when it was higher before human life?