How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[LordBrownTrout]

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

Lol. The teacher is a screwup but its admins fault.

 

[boilermaker55]

You seem to think that someone will just walk in and say they want to quit because they are incompetent.
Ever do that? Your response is so wrong and you see no need for the legal system at all.
Try again.
Why didn't one of your boys that was just found guilty of doing something wrong go in and resign. You know the governor of Virginia.
He thought he was innocent.
Moron!

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

Lol. The teacher is a screwup but its admins fault.

 

[Unkotare]

And you would do well to fuck off.

Oh you poor, little thing. I fear the strain is too much for you to bear.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

You seem to think that someone will just walk in and say they want to quit because they are incompetent.
Ever do that? Your response is so wrong and you see no need for the legal system at all.
Try again.

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

Lol. The teacher is a screwup but its admins fault.

I'm laughing at the irony here of refusing to assign blame.

 

[Decus]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

Since when?

Link for that?

Modern America has a 99% literacy rate.

Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

That's compared to:

In 1820, 20% of the entire adult white population was illiterate, and 80% of the African American population was illiterate.

Literacy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

This thread questions the value of tenure. If we focus on the learning outcomes achieved by US students (remembering that our spending on education per student is one of the highest worldwide) tenure could be abolished tomorrow with little or no effect on student learning. Compared to other industrialized countries:

"Lastly, not only did the US score below average in all areas, there was hardly any improvement between younger and older generations. For numeracy, older US adults (ages 55-65) performed near the average, but younger US adults (ages 16-24) scored dead last among all participating countries."

New OECD Study Finds America Lags Behind in Literacy Numeracy Technology Skills

Older Americans bring up the average a bit but teenager and young adult performance is so very poor. As quoted above we don't do well in math and we rank last in literacy among the 22 other countries examined.

A full report can be found here:

Study U.S. Adults Below Average In Literacy Basic Math The Two-Way NPR

.

 

[Unkotare]

Mass. students excel on global examinations - Metro - The Boston Globe

 

[blackhawk]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

I suspect the original intent was as an incentive to keep good teachers in the profession but over time it morphed into this thing that makes almost impossible to get rid of bad teachers.

 

[candycorn]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

Since when?

Link for that?

Modern America has a 99% literacy rate.

Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

That's compared to:

In 1820, 20% of the entire adult white population was illiterate, and 80% of the African American population was illiterate.

Literacy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

Lol. The teacher is a screwup but its admins fault.

To an extent...isn't it? If you're a boss and you allow a bad teacher to keep her/his job or (if you can't delete her/him-)reassign them.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It doesn't. It helps the teachers not do their job. The public school system no longer exists for the children; it exists for the employees of the public school system.

 

[Sallow]

Basically, conservatives want to get rid of the teacher's unions because they want to get rid of public education.

It's as simple as that.

Beginning and end.

 

[bripat9643]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

How does tenure increase the amount of experience a teacher has? I am a highly paid software consultant, but people in my field get canned all the time. In fact, I just got laid off a month ago. If a company isn't harmed by laying me off, then how can students be harmed by getting rid of incompetent teachers? They can easily be replaced by teachers with just as much experience.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

It should not be "hard work" to get rid of an incompetent teacher.

 

[Sallow]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

Since when?

Link for that?

Modern America has a 99% literacy rate.

Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

That's compared to:

In 1820, 20% of the entire adult white population was illiterate, and 80% of the African American population was illiterate.

Literacy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Not 100% sure how tenure works in the face of an incompetant teacher. Presumedly, if you earned tenure at all you're pretty good. Whether you remain that good thereafter is a worthy question though. And if you start skating by you should be fired regardless. Inclined to think it's another non-problem in search of a solution like voter fraud.

First of all, earning tenure means nothing more than you didn't get fired. So there's no way of knowing if the teacher is good.

Second, once a teacher is protected by tenure, standards and expectations are effectively dropped and the teacher can pretty much do whatever they want. Zero accountability is not a good idea for anyone, ever.

Tenure isn't about quality, it's about protection.

but there is a process to remove an incompetent teacher, so I'm not seeing what your complaint here is, exactly.

The real problem is, administrators don't want to do the hard work of documenting a teacher's poor performance, usually because if someone advocates for the teacher, more than likely, it's the administrator who is probably not up to his or her job.

Lol. The teacher is a screwup but its admins fault.

To an extent...isn't it? If you're a boss and you allow a bad teacher to keep her/his job or (if you can't delete her/him-)reassign them.

That generally isn't the problem. In fact, the "bad teacher" problem isn't really a problem. Most public schools require some pretty heavy credentials before you can teach. Of course if you go through the entire public school system with a fine tooth comb you can find a handful of teachers that should not be in front of a classroom. But those are few and far between. The majority of teachers are dedicated public servants who, many times have to put in their own money and time to help students. And the problem is that because the money has "dried up" for special education programs (like English for foreign students or other special needs) everyone get dumped into the same classroom. Add in, some places have charter schools which eat up public funding and get to pick and choose which students they want. Same thing with many religious schools.

If people were really serious about this they would address the problems instead of making villains of teachers and teacher's unions.

 

[bodecea]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

Then why the hell do these fat-assed teachers treat them like cheeseburgers? EXPERIENCE!?!?! Bullshit.

The expectations of ADMINISTRATIONS and STATES and PARENTS is that all little darlings are the same (like cheeseburgers....that they are ALL going to college. Teachers probably know the truth and yet have to pretend that every child has that potential....aka every child is the same (like cheeseburgers). Students are not cheeseburgers...but tell parents that their child isn't that super cheeseburger and....well, good luck with that.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It doesn't. It helps the teachers not do their job. The public school system no longer exists for the children; it exists for the employees of the public school system.

DING! DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

MYTH:
Tenure is a lifetime job guarantee.

REALITY:
Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.

If it is difficult --- purposely difficult --- to fire a tenured professor, it's also very hard to become one. The probationary period averages three years for community colleges and seven years at four-year colleges. This is a period of employment insecurity almost unique among U.S. professions. People denied tenure at the end of this time lose their jobs; tenure is an "up-or-out" process.

During the probationary period, almost all colleges can choose not to renew faculty contracts and terminate faculty without any reason or cause. Throughout this time, senior professors and administrators evaluate the work of new faculty-teaching, research and service before deciding whether or not to recommend tenure. The most recent survey of American faculty shows that, in a typical year, about one in five probationary faculty members was denied tenure and lost his or her job.

Faculty members remain accountable after achieving tenure. Tenured faculty at most colleges and universities are evaluated periodically-among other things, for promotion, salary increases and, in some cases, merit increases. Grant applications and articles for publication are routinely reviewed on their merit by peers in the field. If basic academic tenets and due process rights are observed, this kind of accountability is wholly appropriate. A finding of incompetence or unprofessional conduct can still result in firing.

The Truth About Tenure in Higher Education

This ruling was not about colleges but about K-12.

For i Vergara i Ruling on Teachers Big Questions Loom - Education Week

Proponents of the suit—mainly newly emergent advocacy groups that have worked to reshape the political landscape of K-12 education—declared the ruling a huge victory for low-income and minority students who have historically gotten weaker teaching than their wealthier and white peers.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

That was my point. If it has no real direct affect upon you, what good are they?
Don't just single out one aspect of our society and think it is prevalent to that group and that group only.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

I'm sorry but WHAT?

I pay Federal Tax, State Tax, City Tax, Sales Tax, Property Tax and a whole lotta other taxes. What happened during the Bush Cataclysm did have a direct effect on me, as many of those taxes I paid weren't used to improve roads, improve transportation, hire more sanitation or public service employees in general. And being that I work in the financial industry? As a direct result of those actions taken by those CEOs..I lost my job.

I spent over a year trying to land another one and had to mine my 401k to survive.

Which by the way? I got heavily taxed for..

Don't tell me that those schmucks didn't directly affect me.

They did.

You didn't use the roads while you weren't paying taxes while you were laid off did you?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Agreed, if you cannot do your job then you need to be taken out of it. But it is the administrations job to be on top of who is doing a good job and document all things seen and talked about. It is the Unions job to protect and defend their rank and file. If there is enough evidence to fire the individual, as in a court of law, they will be fired. But not on a whim.
What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

Teachers will always be protected against firings on a whim or incompetence within the firing itself. The law still protects them against that through fair adjudication.

 

[boilermaker55]

Are you not forgetting one or elements of the equation ....highly paid software consultant?
I hope you never work with any software I have to use.
You haven't thought out the entire problem.

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

It's pretty simple. It's experience. Teaching is not a McDonalds job or even an assembly line job. Kids are not cheeseburgers.

How does tenure increase the amount of experience a teacher has? I am a highly paid software consultant, but people in my field get canned all the time. In fact, I just got laid off a month ago. If a company isn't harmed by laying me off, then how can students be harmed by getting rid of incompetent teachers? They can easily be replaced by teachers with just as much experience.

 

[boilermaker55]

Have you ever seen the witch hunts that can go on in any working environment.
I think not, or you choose to ignore all elements of the situation.

Agreed, if you cannot do your job then you need to be taken out of it. But it is the administrations job to be on top of who is doing a good job and document all things seen and talked about. It is the Unions job to protect and defend their rank and file. If there is enough evidence to fire the individual, as in a court of law, they will be fired. But not on a whim.
What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

Teachers will always be protected against firings on a whim or incompetence within the firing itself. The law still protects them against that through fair adjudication.