How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up.

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Lol, I never attributed anything I couldn't explain to God, dumbass.

The infinite regression fallacy proves mathematically that one cannot be in the present after an infinitely long period of time. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

If you weren't so stupid perhaps you could grasp the point.

 

[emilynghiem]

Personally, I believe we all are spirit and heaven is real...although it is in a realm none of us can fathom because it is beyond our understanding. And, I think heaven is an individual realm, geared to each of us...personally. And hell is the same way, except it you are absent of God, and all that you fear or upsets you is what you will experience forever. In Heaven, all that you love, appreciate, want to know, is instant and forever with you. Heaven is who you are and have been. And to get there, you have to go thru Christ. He is the gatekeeper. He is the light. He is the answers.

I'm sure if heaven was real "Ticketmaster" could get you good seats.

Illustrating your abysmal ignorance and contempt once again.

Fuck off little whore.

Dear Jim: Thank you for letting us use this thread to explore the process of how to rebuke and not rebuke, which is part of the due process to establish agreed corrections and understanding of truth and justice common to us all, despite our differences and biases.

Bruce has rightfully objected to Christians acting judgmentally and mouthing off in ways that are not about the corrections but making ill remarks about the person.

He sees no difference between nonbelievers and believers arguing the same way.

Can I ask your help to show Bruce the better example, of how Christians rebuke one another in the spirit of the laws "as fellow believers." that if "fellow believers" ask to make corrections for the sake of RESTORING good faith relations, that is DIFFERENT
from "complaining about a person in order to justify rejecting or severing relations".

I see that Irish was trying to find points to work with from Bruce's messages.
and RKMBrown is trying to talk it out, but it is still too easy to get caught back in the
rejection and namecalling. Can we please try to do better?

Bruce does respond when the corrections stick to the content and don't go off
into namecalling or judgment of the people for whatever reason.

Sorry if this isn't literally on the topic of heaven, as Huggy pointed out.
But I do think it is an important point to make on what it takes to establish
heavenly peace on earth or the Kingdom of God.

if even our rebukes are done in the spirit of Christ or conscience
to cast out error and make good with our neighbors instead of reject one another.

Can we please try this, so Bruce can see it makes a difference
and that his grievances are being heard if we stick to the content?

Thank you, Jim
we can start a new thread if you prefer, but I think the spirit of this process
picked your thread to use to hash things out. I think this will work here, if that's okay!

Yours truly,
Love, Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

If atheism isn't a religion, why are you spending all this time preaching it?

Dear RKMB, Huggy and Bruce:
yes and no.
The same way there is a distinction between the content in Christianity
versus the preaching of it, a distinction should also be made between
the systems of nontheism and the different ways these are presented.

An atheist friend on backpage posted a list of the different approaches
or "denominations" of atheism.

I prefer to call the overall category "nontheism" which is more neutral,
for people who do not believe in a PERSONIFIED God/Christ or deity figure as personal.
This can include Buddhists who see the world and universal laws as "impersonal"
yet still applying to all humanity inclusively.

There are differences with people who are personally
AGAINST THEISTS, preaching AGAINST theism and theists who are exclusive
and not inclusive or universal. So they do have valid objections,
but the personal and emotions attached can bias their approach
to be as negative as the Christians and Theists who take a
positive universal message but preach it divided and negative AGAINST another group.

If we can agree to separate the belief systems
from negative biases and flaws we have towards or against each other's groups,
there is no need to blame an entire system of thought because of
flaws of individual people, nor need to blame an individual for flaws of an entire group.

If both sides do this, that is what causes hell or hellish suffering in an endless cycle.

As Huggy pointed out, if the theme of this thread is how do we view heaven
or what do we believe,

if we commit to treat each other as we would want to be treated
in an ideal world, we might understand what it takes to get to heaven.

We are "plenty intelligent," and can all do better than this. so given the people collecting on this thread, how can we make the most of our insights to improve our understanding
and come out as better people with better relations than we had going into this?

That "inner struggle" to be the bigger better person we know we are supposed to be,
is what it means to overcome our human material tendencies and rise to higher levels of conscience, which in turn, lift others up to aspire to the same.

 

[RKMBrown]

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell..

Bullshit. You show no knowledge of what Christianity is about, your 'fear' bilge being among the more prominent examples, being from a Marxist view of religion in general rather than Christianity.

In short, you are a bald faced lying sack of shyte.

No counter argument.
So noted.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
Did you miss me?
I know enough about Christianity to know you discredit it with every single post you make.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Do these look familiar?
They are in your bible.
They describe what you should be like if you have any connection to the Christian god.
You don't.

Satan loving Troll.

 

[RKMBrown]

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

If atheism isn't a religion, why are you spending all this time preaching it?

Dear RKMB, Huggy and Bruce:
yes and no.
The same way there is a distinction between the content in Christianity
versus the preaching of it, a distinction should also be made between
the systems of nontheism and the different ways these are presented.

An atheist friend on backpage posted a list of the different approaches
or "denominations" of atheism.

I prefer to call the overall category "nontheism" which is more neutral,
for people who do not believe in a PERSONIFIED God/Christ or deity figure as personal.
This can include Buddhists who see the world and universal laws as "impersonal"
yet still applying to all humanity inclusively.

There are differences with people who are personally
AGAINST THEISTS, preaching AGAINST theism and theists who are exclusive
and not inclusive or universal. So they do have valid objections,
but the personal and emotions attached can bias their approach
to be as negative as the Christians and Theists who take a
positive universal message but preach it divided and negative AGAINST another group.

If we can agree to separate the belief systems
from negative biases and flaws we have towards or against each other's groups,
there is no need to blame an entire system of thought because of
flaws of individual people, nor need to blame an individual for flaws of an entire group.

If both sides do this, that is what causes hell or hellish suffering in an endless cycle.

As Huggy pointed out, if the theme of this thread is how do we view heaven
or what do we believe,

if we commit to treat each other as we would want to be treated
in an ideal world, we might understand what it takes to get to heaven.

We are "plenty intelligent," and can all do better than this. so given the people collecting on this thread, how can we make the most of our insights to improve our understanding
and come out as better people with better relations than we had going into this?

That "inner struggle" to be the bigger better person we know we are supposed to be,
is what it means to overcome our human material tendencies and rise to higher levels of conscience, which in turn, lift others up to aspire to the same.

Sigh...

I hate it when a nice person drops by to break up a good bar fight

Lots of folks learn to be viscerally anti-religion based on very bad experiences with same.

As you say, all people are cut from different cloths and none of us are the best representative of any group.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I'm sure if heaven was real "Ticketmaster" could get you good seats.

Illustrating your abysmal ignorance and contempt once again.

Fuck off little whore.

Dear Jim: Thank you for letting us use this thread to explore the process of how to rebuke and not rebuke, which is part of the due process to establish agreed corrections and understanding of truth and justice common to us all, despite our differences and biases.

Bruce has rightfully objected to Christians acting judgmentally and mouthing off in ways that are not about the corrections but making ill remarks about the person.

He sees no difference between nonbelievers and believers arguing the same way.

Can I ask your help to show Bruce the better example, of how Christians rebuke one another in the spirit of the laws "as fellow believers." that if "fellow believers" ask to make corrections for the sake of RESTORING good faith relations, that is DIFFERENT
from "complaining about a person in order to justify rejecting or severing relations".

I see that Irish was trying to find points to work with from Bruce's messages.
and RKMBrown is trying to talk it out, but it is still too easy to get caught back in the
rejection and namecalling. Can we please try to do better?

Bruce does respond when the corrections stick to the content and don't go off
into namecalling or judgment of the people for whatever reason.

Sorry if this isn't literally on the topic of heaven, as Huggy pointed out.
But I do think it is an important point to make on what it takes to establish
heavenly peace on earth or the Kingdom of God.

if even our rebukes are done in the spirit of Christ or conscience
to cast out error and make good with our neighbors instead of reject one another.

Can we please try this, so Bruce can see it makes a difference
and that his grievances are being heard if we stick to the content?

Thank you, Jim
we can start a new thread if you prefer, but I think the spirit of this process
picked your thread to use to hash things out. I think this will work here, if that's okay!

Yours truly,
Love, Emily

You can do whatever you want to, Emily, obviously, but I am not wasting my time on someone with a Marxist view of Christianity and who lies about being a Christian or former Christian or whatever.

He is just a liar.

But have at it all you want.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell..

Bullshit. You show no knowledge of what Christianity is about, your 'fear' bilge being among the more prominent examples, being from a Marxist view of religion in general rather than Christianity.

In short, you are a bald faced lying sack of shyte.

No counter argument.
So noted.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
Did you miss me?
I know enough about Christianity to know you discredit it with every single post you make.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Do these look familiar?
They are in your bible.
They describe what you should be like if you have any connection to the Christian god.
You don't.

You made no argument to respond to, you lying bastard, and I don't give one flying fart what you think about anything.

And yes, you are on my ignore list but I can selectively look at anything I want off the ignore list, dumbass. I can also respond to posts by others that respond to you.

my, how wonderful technology is today.

 

[emilynghiem]

No counter argument.
So noted.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
Did you miss me?
I know enough about Christianity to know you discredit it with every single post you make.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Do these look familiar?
They are in your bible.
They describe what you should be like if you have any connection to the Christian god.
You don't.

you left out forgiveness.
Jesus in the Bible clearly teaches that we
should forgive so that we can receive God's forgiveness.

Bruce perhaps you are here to teach Jim forgiveness.
It is usually taught by setting the better example.
Whoever forgives first tends to inspire the others to follow.
It is contagious, like peace and love.

As for your multiple posts here (and on another thread)
about God's grace having a 'condition or being quid pro quo'

I found that and answered on a different thread:
If a doctor offers medical treatment and healing for free,
with no conditions before during or after, the person still
has to AGREE to either let the doctor in to see them or
to go see the doctor to receive the free healing services.

it is not so much a "condition" as a natural step in the process.

I posted that elsewhere, but I am repeating it here since
you posted that multiple times here also, about God's
grace given freely being "contradictory" if we have
to "do something to get it."

I will add:
When we breathe in air which is circulated freely, the lungs and oxygen naturally
follow their part of the process to keep the brain and body alive.
But we still have to "breathe in the air" for the process to happen.
If we refuse to breathe, or we choke off the air passages,
then we disrupt the process that otherwise happens naturally.

Same with the healing and life process.

If we do not AGREE to forgive or to ask help or to receive forgiveness,
then the unforgiven fear and conflicts "obstruct" the natural flow of life
and love that normally circulates and connects us freely as the default state.

Babies naturally want love and respond to love,
but fear and unforgiven conflicts obstruct this flow
and or add restrictions as we experience life and run into conflicts and conditions.

if you want to learn from Jim as an example,
if you can watch the difference it makes if he forgives you first,
and how that changes how he talks with you,
and can be more open to understand you and your objections,
maybe you can see what I mean by forgiveness coming first before corrections follow.

Same with you, if you and I want corrections to be made and objections to be answered,
there must be forgiveness and openness first "to receive"
or the doors are closed and nothing is going through.

No human I know can be forced to forgive or it is fake.
It has to be our free choice. That is why we are "learning"
the difference it makes before and after, by trial and error, so we can choose if
we really want to share and make corrections or want to stay stuck behind closed doors.

It is not a "condition" as in induced to make someone meet a standard.
It is more like a "natural law" of cause and effect.

if we don't forgive, we obstruct your own mind and body and the stress
can make you sick or make mistakes or impair your relations with others.

If we can forgive, we open ourselves to understanding and correction, so we are empowered to resolve issues that otherwise make us feel bad, victimized and stressed out.

That is no more a "condition" than it is for us to need to breathe in air
in order for oxygen to circulate and keep our brains and bodies functioning.

It is just the nature of how we are designed as humans,
how our minds and bodies are connected.

I hope we can forgive our differences and faults,
and work with our strengths while we check our weaknesses.
We can do more as a team than we can fighting as adversaries.

Thanks, Bruce
Please carry on, and please keep trying to be as polite and focused
on the content as you want others on here to be. If you don't like
getting the side attacks and personal hits, we'd all have to agree to stop it.
I am more interested in what you have to say, not all that other stuff that detracts.

 

[MrMax]

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Lol, I never attributed anything I couldn't explain to God, dumbass.

The infinite regression fallacy proves mathematically that one cannot be in the present after an infinitely long period of time. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

If you weren't so stupid perhaps you could grasp the point.

You're right, I can't figure out what that phrase has to do with the subject at hand. Another deflection perhaps?

 

[emilynghiem]

You can do whatever you want to, Emily, obviously, but I am not wasting my time on someone with a Marxist view of Christianity and who lies about being a Christian or former Christian or whatever.

He is just a liar.

But have at it all you want.

I don't think you or anyone is wasting our time on here.
If we are all learning how valuable and effective forgiveness is
in transforming relations, it is well that we start with the people
we feel are least deserving of forgiveness.

Jim if you can ask God's help to forgive and let go of all the
negative feelings you have toward Bruce or whatever you feel he represents,
that will open up that much more room in your
heart mind and spirit to love God and love all neighbors as Jesus loves us.

Please allow God to use Bruce to identify those areas
that you least want to forgive and let go. And when you
agree to give those to God through Christ, then you will
be rid of the last bastions of stumbling blocks in your
spiritual path. You will see Bruce as helping you to clean
out your closets of leftover angst and anger towards those in the past who did wrong.

Believe me, he is much more in the right and focused on where he
needs to be than another Biblical theologian I met online preaching against Christians who is intolerably worse, so Bruce is a gift from God in comparison.

Thank you Jim for forgiving enough to let us converse freely on your thread.

I pray that God bless you, uplift you and remove anything from your
heart and mind that prevents you from receiving greater blessings
of grace peace and understanding. May the fruits of your labors
be multiplied and weed out all the other things that don't belong in God's garden.

Whatever we pray for others, we receive and multiply for ourselves.
So I also pray that Bruce also receive and be received freely, without insult or issue,
and any negative obstacles be removed from obstructing or skewing that process.

More Love peace and power to you, Jim
Yours truly,
Emily

 

[thebrucebeat]

No counter argument.
So noted.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
Did you miss me?
I know enough about Christianity to know you discredit it with every single post you make.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Do these look familiar?
They are in your bible.
They describe what you should be like if you have any connection to the Christian god.
You don't.

you left out forgiveness.
Jesus in the Bible clearly teaches that we
should forgive so that we can receive God's forgiveness.

Bruce perhaps you are here to teach Jim forgiveness.
It is usually taught by setting the better example.
Whoever forgives first tends to inspire the others to follow.
It is contagious, like peace and love.

As for your multiple posts here (and on another thread)
about God's grace having a 'condition or being quid pro quo'

I found that and answered on a different thread:
If a doctor offers medical treatment and healing for free,
with no conditions before during or after, the person still
has to AGREE to either let the doctor in to see them or
to go see the doctor to receive the free healing services.

it is not so much a "condition" as a natural step in the process.

I posted that elsewhere, but I am repeating it here since
you posted that multiple times here also, about God's
grace given freely being "contradictory" if we have
to "do something to get it."

I will add:
When we breathe in air which is circulated freely, the lungs and oxygen naturally
follow their part of the process to keep the brain and body alive.
But we still have to "breathe in the air" for the process to happen.
If we refuse to breathe, or we choke off the air passages,
then we disrupt the process that otherwise happens naturally.

Same with the healing and life process.

If we do not AGREE to forgive or to ask help or to receive forgiveness,
then the unforgiven fear and conflicts "obstruct" the natural flow of life
and love that normally circulates and connects us freely as the default state.

Babies naturally want love and respond to love,
but fear and unforgiven conflicts obstruct this flow
and or add restrictions as we experience life and run into conflicts and conditions.

if you want to learn from Jim as an example,
if you can watch the difference it makes if he forgives you first,
and how that changes how he talks with you,
and can be more open to understand you and your objections,
maybe you can see what I mean by forgiveness coming first before corrections follow.

Same with you, if you and I want corrections to be made and objections to be answered,
there must be forgiveness and openness first "to receive"
or the doors are closed and nothing is going through.

No human I know can be forced to forgive or it is fake.
It has to be our free choice. That is why we are "learning"
the difference it makes before and after, by trial and error, so we can choose if
we really want to share and make corrections or want to stay stuck behind closed doors.

It is not a "condition" as in induced to make someone meet a standard.
It is more like a "natural law" of cause and effect.

if we don't forgive, we obstruct your own mind and body and the stress
can make you sick or make mistakes or impair your relations with others.

If we can forgive, we open ourselves to understanding and correction, so we are empowered to resolve issues that otherwise make us feel bad, victimized and stressed out.

That is no more a "condition" than it is for us to need to breathe in air
in order for oxygen to circulate and keep our brains and bodies functioning.

It is just the nature of how we are designed as humans,
how our minds and bodies are connected.

I hope we can forgive our differences and faults,
and work with our strengths while we check our weaknesses.
We can do more as a team than we can fighting as adversaries.

Thanks, Bruce
Please carry on, and please keep trying to be as polite and focused
on the content as you want others on here to be. If you don't like
getting the side attacks and personal hits, we'd all have to agree to stop it.
I am more interested in what you have to say, not all that other stuff that detracts.

I am not trying to teach Jim anything. I don't believe he is teachable. I know you think otherwise. I wish you the best.
I am pointing out his hypocrisy.
As for not including forgiveness, it is not listed by Paul as one of the Fruits of the Spirit, which is the verse that I repeatedly point out that "Christians" like Jim reject. Not that forgiveness is not another trait that can be justified elsewhere in scripture as defining the true believer in Christ. It just wasn't part of Paul's list in Galatians.
As to the "quid pro quo" argument, I answered you in that thread. Sorry you missed it. The difficulty with your analogy is that it leaves out that if you don't let the doctor in then he will make sure you have an eternity of torment.
A small detail, but I think it is significant.

 

[HUGGY]

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

If atheism isn't a religion, why are you spending all this time preaching it?

All WHAT time? I'm here just like you are. I spend a certain amount of my time on computers and on the net anyway. I invest probably less than 10% of my browsing and internet research keeping up with blogs and MBs. My computers are conveniently placed ... nobody to answer to.. I believe it is a worthwhile contribution .. that is showing people that they do not have to live in fear or be hoodwinked by promises of "loving sky fairies" or gaurantees of special rewards like "heaven" when you die if you do what you are told. I see it as a community service like those guys that pick up garbage along the interstates.

I actually wince when I see otherwise intelligent people thank god publicly and talk about how they were "saved".

It is embarrassing to see my fellow human beings acting and talking so stupidly.

All I am doing is offering an alternative perspective other than groveling under yet another master.

Do we REALLY need a deity to feel special? We are fully capable of approval or dissapproval in our own minds of who we are and where we are headed.

If you are too weak to live your life without some invisible father figure then so be it.

There are many of us that are fully capable of deciding right or wrong and sleep perfectly well just being a human being making the best of our situations.

There are many sources to look for guidance when facing complex questions. Yes even the bible has bits and pieces that offer good perspectives but there is so much nonsense in the bibles it is easy to get caught up in the myth and absolutely rediculous bs.

I think the best thing about the devout word for word christians and those of like in other religions that it says so much about those people that it is easy to discredit them right away and there is no need to waste any time with them. It is like when you hear the Boom...Boom from a car blocks away and a white guy pulls up with that gang banger noise preceeding him I always think to myself.. "thanks for the warning..fool".

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe in heaven. Just as atheists think we hit the dirt and that's it, I can't believe that all this magnificent energy just abruptly ends. I can't.

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:



To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:

John 10:18 - No one takes it [life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is relevant when you use it to make your argument. The reason I asked what church you were affiliated with is because there is something not quite right about what you are saying.

If studying the Bible/it's origins/religious doctrine/ church doctrines/pros and cons/creation vs evolution/and historical evidence, turned you into a Bible non believer, what did you study to become a preacher?

Are you saying that you were so uneducated when you became a preacher that by the time you were qualified to preach you had become a nonbeliever?? Were there no clues prior to your jaunt to the pulpit? Did your lack of information at the start of your career effect the congregation, causing conflict and a bad taste in your mouth for religion? I am not convinced that an information revelation is what caused your exit. What I noticed in your posts was not so much a wealth of knowledge, but like I said, a chip on your shoulder.

And if you don't believe what the Bible tells us about Christ, what secular material do you rely on concerning Jesus? After you researched Him, to what extent do you believe the Bible is accurate concerning Christ if at all?

You're hung up on this fear as the reason for religion idea, and yet if fear is responsible for creating Heaven, kinda stupid of the fearful to create a counter location. If Heaven was created to alleviate fear, Hell reinstated it.

Back on topic,
Heaven is huge, busy, happy, and bright. One city is nearly the size of the United States. There are no locks on the doors of the mansions that have been prepared for us. No unemployment, no hospitals, no prisons. Lots of singing, no tears. The population includes, our almighty father, our loving brother, angels, family, friends, lost pets, big white horses, and animals that we have never seen before.
Peace and love and pure joy are abundant. We are children of the Most High. Expect streets of gold, crowns, and robes of righteousness.

What Einstein realized was that time is a dimension. To grasp a dimension, think of a bathtub full of bubbles. Each dimension is it's own bubble. Sometimes they merge and become bigger bubbles. Sometimes there are bubbles inside of other bubbles. Sometimes the bubbles attach themselves to other bubbles with nothing but a straight line of film as the only thing that separates them.
It is how Christ could appear in our dimensions one second and disappear the next. Because glorified bodies are multidimensional. < And we have one in our future.

 

[emilynghiem]

I am not trying to teach Jim anything. I don't believe he is teachable. I know you think otherwise. I wish you the best.
I am pointing out his hypocrisy.
As for not including forgiveness, it is not listed by Paul as one of the Fruits of the Spirit, which is the verse that I repeatedly point out that "Christians" like Jim reject. Not that forgiveness is not another trait that can be justified elsewhere in scripture as defining the true believer in Christ. It just wasn't part of Paul's list in Galatians.
As to the "quid pro quo" argument, I answered you in that thread. Sorry you missed it. The difficulty with your analogy is that it leaves out that if you don't let the doctor in then he will make sure you have an eternity of torment.
A small detail, but I think it is significant.

Hi Bruce

1. even where Jim may not respond to you as "teaching him" where there is "hypocrisy"
maybe it is for the Christians here to learn and explain that to each other.
if no one else benefits from your sharing here, I do. I see it as helpful and constructive.
If there are flaws with your presentation, so there are equal flaws with how Christians preach in a rejecting negative way that you don't respond to either for the same reason.
So they either cancel out, or both equally fall short where two wrongs don't make a right,
but neither side is more or less at fault than the other in this manner.

The point is still made, that we don't receive each other's points as well
if we are busy insulting each other or defending ourselves from attack.
Any counselor or mediator knows the emotional and personal attacks
have to be vented out or put aside first, if the issues at stake are going to be communicated.

We are attempting to point out corrections without an agreed facilitator or process to
referee for us, so this is what we get.

I try to get your points, because I can forgive the messy process going on
and not blame you or Jim for how you react to each other. I don't hold that against
the valid points you are both trying to make. I think the term I was looking for is "righteous indignance."

I don't hold "speaking perfectly without bias or flaw or negativity/blame"
as a "condition" on whether the content is valid.

I see you try to stick to the points I am trying to make, and not go off too much on how poorly
I may present them, so thanks for that effort to sort the wheat from the chaff.

2. Thanks for your explanation that were focusing on just things Paul listed.
For your point that forgiveness is not one of the fruits of the spirit,
it is more like a factor in the process that allows the branch to live or die or produce fruit at all.
If the circulation is cut off from the branch, due to unforgiveness, the branch will die and not produce these fruits.

Paul's teachings are a subset of the entire message of Christ.

I find if we deal with the roots of fear and unforgiveness that skew the whole process,
many of these other issues will resolve themselves in that process, when more positive energy flows through our
hearts, minds and relations with others; instead of negative cycles of division and rejection we feed with fear and unforgiveness.

3. as for this point about the doctor subjecting you to torment if you don't comply.

in the case of natural laws of health and healing,
the DISEASE that the body falls to when healing is obstructed
is what causes the sickness and torment and suffering.

The DOCTOR does not cause the DISEASE, but is trying to offer the cure to it,
to REMOVE the virus or infection or whatever is preventing the wound
or broken bone from healing.

We are suffering from the natural consequences of sickness or imbalance.

Now, if people want to "blame God" for why the body or mind will not heal itself
when we do not forgive, and we instead let negative energy and stress plug
or block off the natural flow, sure lots of people can do that.

I just ask to be consistent.

If we are going to be unhappy about the way the body and things in the world fail,
then also be happy when they work correctly.

We don't have to personify this as God and thank any creator or entity as the source.

But it does help to be "thankful in life" for what we do have that works peacefully.

When we keep a positive or open perception, this is better for our health,
our relations, and the results or satisfaction we get out of life.

When we hold on to negative reactions and rejection or closed or divided conditions
on relationships, we attract more stress and negativity that detracts from our
health and enjoyment in life, inside and out, internally and in relations with others, and collectively. Studies on forgiveness and health have shown this makes a difference.

This is a natural law of cause and effect.

We can study how things work, how human psychology works and what people respond to and what makes changes more difficult or painful, and what makes life less stressful.
and we will find the same effects of forgiveness and unforgiveness work for all people
regardless of our religious affiliations or beliefs.

We don't have to believe in or attribute this to any God
to work with the same laws of nature and improve our
lives, health and relationships. And collectively this impacts society as a whole,
made up of other people choosing either to forgive and pursue corrections together,
or to project fear and blame and stay divided and resentful of others.

We can study the results of both paths, and decide which works better.

We don't have to be theist or nontheist, but can be of any background
and come to similar conclusions that we are more effective at resolving
the causes of social and physical ills when we DON'T waste time
energy or resources staying divided and blaming other people or groups.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sigh...

I hate it when a nice person drops by to break up a good bar fight

Lots of folks learn to be viscerally anti-religion based on very bad experiences with same.

As you say, all people are cut from different cloths and none of us are the best representative of any group.

smiles and thanks RKMB

Perhaps if the Christians on here admitted and demonstrated we do need to do better to
"speak the truth with love" and forgive and love our neighbors as Christ does
(ie unconditionally, with faith that corrections made will be equal between us),

and we DO need to be open to receive rebuke and correction and not reject it,
maybe Bruce and Huggy would not have such a "negative perception" that
Christians "do not follow their own teachings" so it is "all hypocrisy."

If we will not even receive or share corrections among ourselves as the Bible calls for us to seek, of course, Christianity appears nothing more than a huge "cult" or "scam" to rook followers and justify abuses instead of correcting them, claiming to forgive these, while allowing injustice to go unchecked by "blaming the critics" and denying responsibility for our fault in the conflicts, where both accuse the other of ulterior motives instead of correcting the problems being complained of.

Perhaps if more people saw that it actually DOES work to rebuke Christians within the spirit of the laws (not dividing or rejecting in conflict with them), so that these corrections ARE RECEIVED between peers, and it DOES make a difference,
they might be more open to the idea that
the message and laws in the Bible ARE valid and have authority after all.
And just because people are flawed in following or abusing these, doesn't mean they don't work. These laws can be enforced to compel believers to RECEIVE CORRECTION and follow consistently for the sake of truth and justice (and not for religious agenda or control), by NOT using the same "negative rejection, judgment, and coercion" that the critics oppose so much.

Not just with the Scriptural laws, but Constitutional laws can also be used to rebuke and correct problems (instead of playing "control games" to coerce people by attacking each other's groups as the problem). If we could correct political problems by agreeing to enforce common Constitutional principles that all people and parties align on,
this renews faith that we are under the same laws and invoking authority based on that which is common and equal among all people, and not just a tool for one group to use against another.

If we show how the church laws can also be used to correct problems, then there would not be such a loss in faith that these laws DO serve a positive purpose to help people, instead of merely enabling religious abuse to divide conquer and control by group force.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I am not trying to teach Jim anything. I don't believe he is teachable. I know you think otherwise. I wish you the best.
I am pointing out his hypocrisy.
As for not including forgiveness, it is not listed by Paul as one of the Fruits of the Spirit, which is the verse that I repeatedly point out that "Christians" like Jim reject. Not that forgiveness is not another trait that can be justified elsewhere in scripture as defining the true believer in Christ. It just wasn't part of Paul's list in Galatians.
As to the "quid pro quo" argument, I answered you in that thread. Sorry you missed it. The difficulty with your analogy is that it leaves out that if you don't let the doctor in then he will make sure you have an eternity of torment.
A small detail, but I think it is significant.

Hi Bruce

1. even where Jim may not respond to you as "teaching him" where there is "hypocrisy"
maybe it is for the Christians here to learn and explain that to each other.
if no one else benefits from your sharing here, I do. I see it as helpful and constructive.
If there are flaws with your presentation, so there are equal flaws with how Christians preach in a rejecting negative way that you don't respond to either for the same reason.
So they either cancel out, or both equally fall short where two wrongs don't make a right,
but neither side is more or less at fault than the other in this manner.

The point is still made, that we don't receive each other's points as well
if we are busy insulting each other or defending ourselves from attack.
Any counselor or mediator knows the emotional and personal attacks
have to be vented out or put aside first, if the issues at stake are going to be communicated.

We are attempting to point out corrections without an agreed facilitator or process to
referee for us, so this is what we get.

I try to get your points, because I can forgive the messy process going on
and not blame you or Jim for how you react to each other. I don't hold that against
the valid points you are both trying to make. I think the term I was looking for is "righteous indignance."

I don't hold "speaking perfectly without bias or flaw or negativity/blame"
as a "condition" on whether the content is valid.

I see you try to stick to the points I am trying to make, and not go off too much on how poorly
I may present them, so thanks for that effort to sort the wheat from the chaff.

2. as for this point about the doctor subjecting you to torment if you don't comply.

in the case of natural laws of health and healing,
the DISEASE that the body falls to when healing is obstructed
is what causes the sickness and torment and suffering.

The DOCTOR does not cause the DISEASE, but is trying to offer the cure to it,
to REMOVE the virus or infection or whatever is preventing the wound
or broken bone from healing.

We are suffering from the natural consequences of sickness or imbalance.

Now, if people want to "blame God" for why the body or mind will not heal itself
when we do not forgive, and we instead let negative energy and stress plug
or block off the natural flow, sure lots of people can do that.

I just ask to be consistent.

If we are going to be unhappy about the way the body and things in the world fail,
then also be happy when they work correctly.

We don't have to personify this as God and thank any creator or entity as the source.

But it does help to be "thankful in life" for what we do have that works peacefully.

When we keep a positive or open perception, this is better for our health,
our relations, and the results or satisfaction we get out of life.

When we hold on to negative reactions and rejection or closed or divided conditions
on relationships, we attract more stress and negativity that detracts from our
health and enjoyment in life, inside and out, internally and in relations with others, and collectively. Studies on forgiveness and health have shown this makes a difference.

This is a natural law of cause and effect.

We can study how things work, how human psychology works and what people respond to and what makes changes more difficult or painful, and what makes life less stressful.
and we will find the same effects of forgiveness and unforgiveness work for all people
regardless of our religious affiliations or beliefs.

We don't have to believe in or attribute this to any God
to work with the same laws of nature and improve our
lives, health and relationships. And collectively this impacts society as a whole,
made up of other people choosing either to forgive and pursue corrections together,
or to project fear and blame and stay divided and resentful of others.

We can study the results of both paths, and decide which works better.

We don't have to be theist or nontheist, but can be of any background
and come to similar conclusions that we are more effective at resolving
the causes of social and physical ills when we DON'T waste time
energy or resources staying divided and blaming other people or groups.

The doctor analogy is inherently flawed by leaving out the detail of the eternal punishment promised in scripture.
Don't get me wrong. I don't endorse this belief, but just about 100% of the most vitriolic believers not only endorse it but revel in the idea of their theological adversaries burning into perpetuity.

 

[emilynghiem]

All WHAT time? I'm here just like you are. I spend a certain amount of my time on computers and on the net anyway. I invest probably less than 10% of my browsing and internet research keeping up with blogs and MBs. My computers are conveniently placed ... nobody to answer to.. I believe it is a worthwhile contribution .. that is showing people that they do not have to live in fear or be hoodwinked by promises of "loving sky fairies" or gaurantees of special rewards like "heaven" when you die if you do what you are told. I see it as a community service like those guys that pick up garbage along the interstates.

I actually wince when I see otherwise intelligent people thank god publicly and talk about how they were "saved".

It is embarrassing to see my fellow human beings acting and talking so stupidly.

All I am doing is offering an alternative perspective other than groveling under yet another master.

Do we REALLY need a deity to feel special? We are fully capable of approval or dissapproval in our own minds of who we are and where we are headed.

If you are too weak to live your life without some invisible father figure then so be it.

There are many of us that are fully capable of deciding right or wrong and sleep perfectly well just being a human being making the best of our situations.

There are many sources to look for guidance when facing complex questions. Yes even the bible has bits and pieces that offer good perspectives but there is so much nonsense in the bibles it is easy to get caught up in the myth and absolutely rediculous bs.

I think the best thing about the devout word for word christians and those of like in other religions that it says so much about those people that it is easy to discredit them right away and there is no need to waste any time with them. It is like when you hear the Boom...Boom from a car blocks away and a white guy pulls up with that gang banger noise preceeding him I always think to myself.. "thanks for the warning..fool".

Hi Huggy I also cringe when I hear people preach in ways that create more misunderstanding, misperception or alienation and division.

As for people who openly thank God or Jesus,
for some who have lived their whole lives, or nearly died from addiction or abuse they could not break free from because they were so sick and so trapped,
I have come to understand why they jump for joy, sing and dance like maniacs
and don't mind being called Jesus Freaks for acting completely insane.

I have not found anything else other than the deep healing forgiveness prayer
and therapy through deliverance to cure the most helpless sicknesses and addictions
that people HONESTLY cannot help fall victim to. Even if they want to be free, and try all their might to avoid falling to addictive or abusive patterns, in the really extreme cases
they cannot stop themselves.

I am more aggrieved to see people die of suicide over depression or addiction
they tried to beat but failed. I know if they had someone to work with them, like I refer people to my friend Olivia, or Dr. Phillip Goldfedder or Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt,
they could be spared from going off the deep end with these sicknesses or addictions.

That is so much more tragic, I hate to see that so much more,
that I have learned to forgive the other extreme, when people
DO get help to save their lives and then can't explain it and it comes out all bat**** crazy.

I'd much rather have that than see people die who could have gotten help,
like Michael Jackson, or murder victims where the criminals COULD have gotten
help BEFORE they murdered raped or tortured anyone and put people and families through
endless suffering. I'd rather see Jesus Freaks spouting off crazy nonsense than see crime victims and their families in court crying and angry
that criminally ill people are running around loose on the streets instead of getting detained and treated, when people HAVE BEEN CURED of these ills.
(look up David Berkowitz, former Son of Sam, who started an online ministry for others to get help to PREVENT criminalizing innocent people for their sicknesses.)

There are such WORSE consequences in comparison,
I'd much rather have people healed, even if they act like FU Jesus Freaks and can't explain
it rationally, and instead it just makes it look even more like a cult. (note: the people who have
undergone healing and can speak about it rationally you never hear about in the media. Scott
Peck wrote a book on how his understanding changed, but it took 10 years to write and publish it.
it was so profound, and he took more of the secular science approach, so it was harder to explain.
the people we see in the media are usually using symbolic language using religious terms, so it sounds crazy
and makes no sense to people who need a scientific explanation of how the healing works instead of symbolism.)

I trust medical science to prove that spiritual healing can cure all manner of diseases,
so there is a reason these people cry or laugh for joy when they are healed.

I'm sure I would act that nuts also, if I had some disease or addiction that made me do those horrible things,
and I got freed of it and got to live my life without that hanging over my head controlling me.

I'd be just as crazy over God and Jesus, kissing the ground, and whatever
if I went through what some of these people did to become free and get their lives back!

I cry more for the people who missed that chance, and their loved ones who regret that they didn't get help in time. that hurts me more to think of than any of this nutsiness.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If you don't let the doctor in, is it the doctor's fault you die? Seems you have sealed your own fate. His medicine would have guaranteed the removal of your illness and the replacing of it with vitality, for eternity. How does one chose illness and death instead of healing and life, and yet blame the doctor?

As for the assertion that our Father makes sure His children tow the line or burn in hell, how many people in the Garden of Eden did He fry? In fact, His punishment for murder was to take the victim to Paradise, and then seal the murderer to keep him safe from others. Grieved, yes. Vindictive, no. Merciful, yes. Reciprocal, no.

Many of the covenants God has made with His children require our participation. So do His promises. For example, If you give him 10 percent off of the top of your income, he'll will return it to you, and much much more.

On the other hand, our salvation is way to important to Him to leave any part of it dependent on our actions. One single individual is responsible for removing our sins, healing us, and returning us to the Highest Level. And it is a gift. Not the condition of a contract.

 

[thebrucebeat]

If you don't let the doctor in, is it the doctor's fault you die? Seems you have sealed your own fate. His medicine would have guaranteed the removal of your illness and the replacing of it with vitality, for eternity. You chose illness and death instead of healing and life. And yet you blame the doctor?

As for the assertion that our Father makes sure His children tow the line or burn in hell, how many people in the Garden of Eden did He fry? In fact, His punishment for murder was to take the victim to Paradise, and then seal the murderer to keep him safe from others. Grieved, yes. Vindictive, no. Merciful, yes. Reciprocal, no.

Many of the covenants God has made with His children require our participation. So do His promises. For example, If you give him 10 percent off of the top of your income, and he'll will return it to you, and much much more.

On the other hand, our salvation is way to important to Him to leave any part of it dependent on our actions. One single individual is responsible for removing our sins, healing us, and returning us to the Highest Level. And it is a gift. Not the condition of a contract.

So, very simply, you don't believe that rejecting god does earn you everlasting torment in hell?
Great.
Step one toward sanity.

 

[RKMBrown]

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

If atheism isn't a religion, why are you spending all this time preaching it?

All WHAT time? I'm here just like you are. I spend a certain amount of my time on computers and on the net anyway. I invest probably less than 10% of my browsing and internet research keeping up with blogs and MBs. My computers are conveniently placed ... nobody to answer to.. I believe it is a worthwhile contribution .. that is showing people that they do not have to live in fear or be hoodwinked by promises of "loving sky fairies" or gaurantees of special rewards like "heaven" when you die if you do what you are told. I see it as a community service like those guys that pick up garbage along the interstates.

I'm a methodist. I don't know a single methodist that lives in fear, is hoodwinked by promises of loving sky faries, or guarantees of special heavenly rewards if you do what you are told. You appear to be making broad unsupported statements about all Christians based on some vengeful vendetta. From my perspective you are one of those who throws garbage along the interstates for fun times.


I actually wince when I see otherwise intelligent people thank god publicly and talk about how they were "saved".

What do you think they meant by god, do you know these people personally? What do you think they meant by being saved, and why do you think it was a horrible thing to happen for them?

It is embarrassing to see my fellow human beings acting and talking so stupidly.

Are you embarrassed because you are on the outside looking in or because you are defending your peer group?

All I am doing is offering an alternative perspective other than groveling under yet another master.
Is that what you think religion is, groveling to masters? What religion made you grovel to a master? What you are describing sounds like satan worship.

Do we REALLY need a deity to feel special? We are fully capable of approval or dissapproval in our own minds of who we are and where we are headed.

Huh? Again you appear to be confusing the concept of christian prayer, with sacrificing blood to the altar of some pagan god.

If you are too weak to live your life without some invisible father figure then so be it.
Families with father figures are a weakness?

There are many of us that are fully capable of deciding right or wrong and sleep perfectly well just being a human being making the best of our situations.

Settling for simply being a human being... a man with no father, no family, no friends, no companionship, no fellowship with others. Is that what you are trying to teach, really?

There are many sources to look for guidance when facing complex questions. Yes even the bible has bits and pieces that offer good perspectives but there is so much nonsense in the bibles it is easy to get caught up in the myth and absolutely rediculous bs.
Maybe the issue was the perspective you read it from? Context matters.
I think the best thing about the devout word for word christians and those of like in other religions that it says so much about those people that it is easy to discredit them right away and there is no need to waste any time with them. That's a two way street. You discredit yourself right away, when you spend all your time spewing your hyper critical bigoted view points.

It is like when you hear the Boom...Boom from a car blocks away and a white guy pulls up with that gang banger noise preceeding him I always think to myself.. "thanks for the warning..fool".

in blue