How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

Wasn't it the great spaghetti monster?

No, that was the cheap porn flick you watched while eating that cheap ass pizza.

Doesn't god come from Kolob?

No, but does your head come out of your ass all the time? It would seem it does.

 

[thebrucebeat]

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heaven is incorruptible, undefiled and fadeth not away. I think that sums it up best.

How about absence or lack of FEAR

Since perfect LOVE casts out all FEAR
and heaven is supposed to be perfect love and peace of God,
wouldn't heaven be a perfect state free of all FEAR

also fear is "lack of faith"
so faith replaces fear with security

Would heavenly peace be perfect peace and security

I have made the same case coming from the other direction.
People are driven to their faith by fear. Fear of death and fear of the unknown. They can accept the most outlandish things if trading their reason provides them with the desperately coveted false sense of security.
We may agree more than I thought.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I can't help but imagine Emily plays this song when assembling her posts....

You are such a fucking loser, shit head.

 

[emilynghiem]

Let's see if Bruce has more specific things to object to about Justice.

What an impossibly foolish thing to say.
Where, anywhere, have I remotely suggested I "object" to justice?
Like I said before, I think the sweetness of tone of your posts is a cloak. You are being disingenuous.

Hi Bruce
Sorry if this wasn't clear
I am not saying "object to Justice"
but "object to ABOUT Justice"
ie contrasting with other ppl's beliefs and mine compared with your understanding

You already made comments that refer to Justice as a concept you believe in.
I was trying to ask you to elaborate on how you perceive the process of establishing truth and justice.

The only way I can understand your objections and corrections
is if you spell out your understanding and/or I spell out mine,
and we compare the points in common or differences.

As for the question of being disingenuous
I think that is the natural suspicion or reaction
since you and others are used to attacking each other.

Since you don't know me from the others,
I can only assume you are guessing I have an ulterior motive
such as trying to find fault with you to discredit you
as opposed to correcting my own faults and understanding what you are objecting to
specifically.

Please do not confuse me with others or assume my intent is negative.
I am trying to make corrections and clarify how I say things
so that is why I ask you to be more specific.

as for my intent, I believe that whatever universal meanings or concepts are in Christianity
or in the Bible these should be able to be explained in secular terms if they are real.
so how can we learn how to express these if we keep talking only with Christians who use the Bible and religious terms. it just makes sense if we are going to talk scientifically and universally about the meanings or process in life in the Bible, it needs to make sense in plain terms of secular understanding. so if I am not making sense to you, then I need to understand how you see and say the same things but in a secular way without the Bible.

you seem to have more ability and commitment to pinpointing the truth and identifying error than other nontheists who only seek to reject as most Christians seek to preach.

I am more interested in finding where we agree on common concepts, and offer those as a more effective approach than preaching and rejecting back and forth as others tend to.

That is my honest intent. I have been working on this since I first became aware that the universal truth humanity was meant to realize was depicted in both Buddhism Christianity and even Constitutionalism but people were speaking different languages and talking past each other. when in fact if we focus on the common principles, it doesnt matter which language we use as long as we connect with that audience we are addressing.

Bruce I did not come to my understanding through the traditional Christian teaching. I am more interested in the path of the secular gentiles and natural laws which I relate more to. so I am trying to bridge that gap so people can communicate back and forth without issue.

If this can be done and taught effectively there is no need to judge nontheists because we will have perfected a way to communicate and reach agreement without depending on religious belief in Christian and Biblical symbols and traditions. the universal meaning of God and Jesus can be agreed upon and understood without relying on religions, just the common concepts that are natural and universal to people of all backgrounds or views.

 

[emilynghiem]

I have made the same case coming from the other direction.
People are driven to their faith by fear. Fear of death and fear of the unknown. They can accept the most outlandish things if trading their reason provides them with the desperately coveted false sense of security.
We may agree more than I thought.

Yes, fear of the unknown is the root of all the other fears.
I agree and was just discussing this with a friend yesterday
who bases all his professional counseling on fear management.

I find fear of change is probably the worst culprit of all,
where physical death is a critical "spiritual change" but not the only one we make a mess of.
we are just as afraid of death of relationships, death of the economy etc.

people have chosen physical death out of fear of losing a relationship or losing a job/home,
because the sense of control was more important. some things are worse than death.

so I summarize these as
* fear of death
* fear of change/loss of control
* fear of conflict/confrontations

as the three levels of
spiritual/mental/physical
that the positive and negative sides of trinity represent

(where fear of change or control issues tend to reflect or repeat as "daddy issues/authority issues with govt and romantic male/female issues"
and fear of confrontations in communications tend to be tied to "mommy issues and family relations"
and how resolved we are with our past conflicts are so we don't keep repeating or projecting our conflicting biases forward on future relations or on church-state politics collectively)

that counselor friend of mine phrases this as
* fear
* stress
* anxiety

as the three levels he focuses on which also relate to
* individual or internal fear
* fear in relationship with others
* fears connected with collective society

my favorite quote from Dr. MLK Jr is on fear:

"Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated."

Thanks Bruce for your help to try to communicate more clearly
to get over these fears that we are all out to get each other.

I hope more of us come to understand we are really not each other's enemies, but our best hope for correcting errors and faults we cannot see for our own biases we project,
so that it takes someone coming from another angle, who doesn't think or assume the same things we do, to point out the things we too easily overlook or take for granted.
It is ironic how the people who have the most to offer us often think the least like us and disagree from the most polarized opposite view.

I hope you do not give up and others do not give up trying to understand you,
but we recognize we all have valid points and objections or corrections to share,
and work as diligently to carve away the coal to get to the valuable diamonds inside.

From my experience, the more work it takes to resolve conflicts and reach a mutual understanding,
the more valuable the insights gained from the exchange, the more rare the gems we find after cutting all else away.

May you uncover a wealth of diamonds in all the people and minds you cut down to the core.

 

[HUGGY]

Hi Hugs
some of my more challenging messages to capture in words
came out to song lyrics to Nine Inch Nails, if you can believe it.

As many people thought I was blaspheming Christianity as blaspheming NIN by setting Christian lyrics to Reznor's songs considered a god to his fans.

I though the music captured the rage and pain caused to human conscience
in experience spiritual suffering, recovery and transformation.

Here are some of them, which convey the heartbreak of human genocide, anger, and
self-induced destruction, but within the context of stages of recovery and resolution:

Genocide

Spoof on Mr Self Destruct

No Thank You

Reformation

World Peace song

^ This one is probably most on topic, Sorry Jim
it's about world peace beginning with the changes we make locally
especially forgiving the people and things that are the very hardest for us ^

I can't help but imagine Emily plays this song when assembling her posts....

Spoon Full of sugar - Mary poppins - YouTube

Word Emily... you might try some new tricks ....

Sexiest movie scene - The Replacements (cheerleader edited scene) - YouTube

RE: sex scenes
Actually Huggy I do have a story where characters use a phone sex conversation to work through spiritual karma.
I may have posted the link before to "Like Angels in Heaven" about resolving karmic lust between past life soulmates
(in reference to "there will be no giving away in marriage, but it will be more like the Angels in Heaven")
I think that story is linked elsewhere on here if you search for Like Angels in Heaven, Thomas Jefferson, Maria Cosway under emilynghiem.
it's still about forgiveness and letting go, or else unforgiven guilt from past sins repeats in future generations,
but would distract even further from Jim's OP. If you want to start your own thread I can post it there instead.

My suggested listenings were not intended to be taken as anything more than a background of levity to the KumBaYa campfire of "understanding" you seem to be organizing.

All this talk of heaven and coming to jesus makes me laugh. I couldn't care less what Jimmy boy wants so send him a PM instead of piggy backing on your replies to my posts please.

I doubt you will find a universal language that covers the stink of false premises.

Not to be rude but the business at hand is whether heaven is real.

What THAT begs is whether god is real or if the creation of the idea of heaven in the bible is based on anything real.

The OP never intended for a serious discussion to break out as is obvious by his pre pubescent comments and lame insults proves.

My interest in heaven is aligned with my interest in justice as it is the payoff in the big christian scam.

Heaven is only as real as it is usefull bait and an alternative to it's counterpart when enlisting the naive and the weak to throw themselves on the mercy of the perpetrators of the fraud.

I understand that my input is a spit in the ocean as the ponzi scheme was almost completely successfull. Too little...too late? Maybe but as long as there are people like yourself unwilling to let those that found holes in the net be myself and others like me must say what we can.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe in heaven. Just as atheists think we hit the dirt and that's it, I can't believe that all this magnificent energy just abruptly ends. I can't.

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:

John 10:18 - No one takes it [life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

 

[Gracie]

Personally, I believe we all are spirit and heaven is real...although it is in a realm none of us can fathom because it is beyond our understanding. And, I think heaven is an individual realm, geared to each of us...personally. And hell is the same way, except it you are absent of God, and all that you fear or upsets you is what you will experience forever. In Heaven, all that you love, appreciate, want to know, is instant and forever with you. Heaven is who you are and have been. And to get there, you have to go thru Christ. He is the gatekeeper. He is the light. He is the answers.

 

[MrMax]

No, that was the cheap porn flick you watched while eating that cheap ass pizza.

Doesn't god come from Kolob?

No, but does your head come out of your ass all the time? It would seem it does.

So where is your god and heaven?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Doesn't god come from Kolob?

No, but does your head come out of your ass all the time? It would seem it does.

So where is your god and heaven?

A universe parallel to ours, and God is the Creator who exists outside the flow of time and space, in fact He created time itself.

 

[RKMBrown]

Gotta love all the haters & how they love to spam their spew at believers.

 

[MrMax]

So, for some, Heaven is an actual physical place?

Is it in the sky?

If so, why can't we see it with telescopes? Why don't our astronauts pass it?

Cuz he don't want you to. If you were the almighty, you could create a kickin privacy fence.

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up. Maybe the human race already peaked and now we're devolving back to cavemen?

 

[thebrucebeat]

I believe in heaven. Just as atheists think we hit the dirt and that's it, I can't believe that all this magnificent energy just abruptly ends. I can't.

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:

John 10:18 - No one takes it [life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

 

[HUGGY]

Personally, I believe we all are spirit and heaven is real...although it is in a realm none of us can fathom because it is beyond our understanding. And, I think heaven is an individual realm, geared to each of us...personally. And hell is the same way, except it you are absent of God, and all that you fear or upsets you is what you will experience forever. In Heaven, all that you love, appreciate, want to know, is instant and forever with you. Heaven is who you are and have been. And to get there, you have to go thru Christ. He is the gatekeeper. He is the light. He is the answers.

I'm sure if heaven was real "Ticketmaster" could get you good seats.

 

[HUGGY]

I believe in heaven. Just as atheists think we hit the dirt and that's it, I can't believe that all this magnificent energy just abruptly ends. I can't.

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:



To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:

John 10:18 - No one takes it [life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

Well said.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Gotta love all the haters & how they love to spam their spew at believers.

It's all they've got.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I believe in heaven. Just as atheists think we hit the dirt and that's it, I can't believe that all this magnificent energy just abruptly ends. I can't.

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:



To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:

John 10:18 - No one takes it [life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell..

Bullshit. You show no knowledge of what Christianity is about, your 'fear' bilge being among the more prominent examples, being from a Marxist view of religion in general rather than Christianity.

In short, you are a bald faced lying sack of shyte.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Personally, I believe we all are spirit and heaven is real...although it is in a realm none of us can fathom because it is beyond our understanding. And, I think heaven is an individual realm, geared to each of us...personally. And hell is the same way, except it you are absent of God, and all that you fear or upsets you is what you will experience forever. In Heaven, all that you love, appreciate, want to know, is instant and forever with you. Heaven is who you are and have been. And to get there, you have to go thru Christ. He is the gatekeeper. He is the light. He is the answers.

I'm sure if heaven was real "Ticketmaster" could get you good seats.

Illustrating your abysmal ignorance and contempt once again.

Fuck off little whore.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So, for some, Heaven is an actual physical place?

Is it in the sky?

If so, why can't we see it with telescopes? Why don't our astronauts pass it?

Cuz he don't want you to. If you were the almighty, you could create a kickin privacy fence.

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up.

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

 

[RKMBrown]

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:



To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:



He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

Well said.

sad