How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

Well said.

sad

Well, sad

 

[HUGGY]

Well said.

sad

Well, sad

No heaven for you..you rude little pustule. What is sad is that you will never know the dissappointment you deserve when you die.

 

[Pop23]

So, for some, Heaven is an actual physical place?

Is it in the sky?

If so, why can't we see it with telescopes? Why don't our astronauts pass it?

Cuz he don't want you to. If you were the almighty, you could create a kickin privacy fence.

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up. Maybe the human race already peaked and now we're devolving back to cavemen?

It seems you have already devolved, especially your sense of humor.

Too much!

 

[thebrucebeat]

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell.
If you want to address me it is helpful to quote me so I am aware you have, rather than bury your questions in a post addressed to someone else.
As for talking about the details of my past, I avoid it for the most part as I don't want to give out personal info and those answers aren't relevant to the truth or lack of it of my arguments.
In short, it's irrelevant.

Well said.

sad

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

 

[RKMBrown]

Cuz he don't want you to. If you were the almighty, you could create a kickin privacy fence.

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up. Maybe the human race already peaked and now we're devolving back to cavemen?

It seems you have already devolved, especially your sense of humor.

Too much!

Flat earthers still trying to turn earth into their little hell.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You are without end. You are made in the image of your Father, who is without end. YaY.

If any of you believe in anything Christ ever said, this may be one of the most important scriptures in the Bible:



To believe otherwise is not progress. There is nothing you can do to secure your own salvation. If there was, Christ would have waited in Heaven until we arrived, or not. Pure sinless blood is the only cure for sin.

Christ's plan to redeem us was in place before the earth existed. His fate wasn't determined by Judas. He wasn't forced here by our Father. This is what Christ said about exchanging places with us so we could have eternal life and have it more abundantly:



He chose to shed His blood to remove our sin. It was His gift to us.
The only way to the Father is to be sin free. Only Christ's blood can free you of your sin. You can not work your way clean.

Bruce, I found it odd that you thought that it is progress to believe that there are other ways to Heaven. Being a preacher, do you not believe what Christ said?
And not to step on your belief that fear is what motivates belief, but it is love that motivates mine. As a man of the cloth, are you religious because you are afraid of death and the unknown? Is that why you need it?
If religion is a crutch to allay fear, unless you are afraid, why did you feel the need to spread it? Are there other reasons beside fear that one may wish to embrace a religion?

If you don't mind me asking, you said you were a preacher once. Have you retired? What church were you affiliated with?

I quit. I couldn't do it any more. The deeper and broader I studied scripture the less I could invest in it. I certainly wasn't going to preach it.
Do I not believe what Christ said?
I don't believe we know what Christ said. We know what the bible says, but that is a different issue.
Historically religion has traded on that fear to enlist converts, and if the natural fear of death and the unknown is not enough, the religion will supply an enhanced reason to fear it called hell..

Bullshit. You show no knowledge of what Christianity is about, your 'fear' bilge being among the more prominent examples, being from a Marxist view of religion in general rather than Christianity.

In short, you are a bald faced lying sack of shyte.

No counter argument.
So noted.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
Did you miss me?
I know enough about Christianity to know you discredit it with every single post you make.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
Do these look familiar?
They are in your bible.
They describe what you should be like if you have any connection to the Christian god.
You don't.

 

[MrMax]

Cuz he don't want you to. If you were the almighty, you could create a kickin privacy fence.

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up.

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

 

[RKMBrown]

Well said.

sad

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

 

[RKMBrown]

It's amazing that grown humans could believe something that's just so obviously made up.

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Retard.

 

[thebrucebeat]

sad

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Creating a strawman to rail against doesn't bolster your credibility. It undermines it.

 

[RKMBrown]

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Creating a strawman to rail against doesn't bolster your credibility. It undermines it.

You talking about your argument or mine?

 

[thebrucebeat]

So you are smarter than Aristotle and Plato?

You know what caused time to come into being?

You know how to solve the infinite regression fallacy?

no, because you are not an atheist, but are an ignotheist.

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Retard.

These one-liner emotional reactions don't really make any kind of argument.
They just show your frustration in not having one.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Creating a strawman to rail against doesn't bolster your credibility. It undermines it.

You talking about your argument or mine?

If you can't figure that out, you have discovered your problem.
Your intellectually handicapped.

 

[HUGGY]

sad

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

 

[RKMBrown]

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Retard.

These one-liner emotional reactions don't really make any kind of argument.
They just show your frustration in not having one.

Sometimes one word is all it takes. That it takes you two sentences to call the guy a shitstain, just points to how stupid you are..

 

[RKMBrown]

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

Your right only you could've created the universe. All hail bruce, watch him beat his chest magnificently while he proclaims all heaven and hell and religion to be a farce while he demands we worship his anti-religion, religion instead.

Ya... I agree.. Kudos to Bruce.

Atheism is not a religion. No "faith" or organization involved. No one is required to "give themselves" to someone else's dogma to claim they have an atheist's understanding of the absence of deities. No amount of fear mongering shifts the scales nor 10% of their income need be paid to come to an atheist's conclusions.

If atheism isn't a religion, why are you spending all this time preaching it?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Retard.

These one-liner emotional reactions don't really make any kind of argument.
They just show your frustration in not having one.

Sometimes one word is all it takes. That it takes you two sentences to call the guy a shitstain, just points to how stupid you are..

And your disrespectful nature toward others shows you have no respect for scripture.
You aren't making arguments.
You're having tantrums.

 

[RKMBrown]

These one-liner emotional reactions don't really make any kind of argument.
They just show your frustration in not having one.

Sometimes one word is all it takes. That it takes you two sentences to call the guy a shitstain, just points to how stupid you are..

And your disrespectful nature toward others shows you have no respect for scripture.
You aren't making arguments.
You're having tantrums.

Do you need a tissue?

You come to a thread for Christians about their belief in heaven to ridicule religion, and you call me "disrespectful."

Yeah... wow.

Are you an ex Catholic?

 

[emilynghiem]

0. since this is Jim's thread, if he is okay going off topic or asks for PM or a separate thread, I will follow his instructions.

overall I am glad you can see humor in this, that is much more productive than anger or any ill will these topics normally bring up for people who have issues against judgmental Christians. I have some other political humor about church-state that I could share with you, if we have the same serious sense of humor about this. When I write satire, I take it very seriously, even making fun of myself taking things too seriously, so that would be great if we share the same intellectual sense of humor about what is not funny otherwise.

here's another one: Juliet & Romeo: A Play on Life in America
where the Capulets are prolife conservative Christians (Juliet is a prolife feminist)
and the Montagues are liberals, where Romeo is atheist and his friends are gay, socialists and anarchists. Let me know if this is your type of humor. If you don't want to stowaway on Jim's thread or train to heaven, we can unload our baggage onto another train going the other direction. (That Jefferson story is probably more along those lines, like purgatory and hell, but told as adult humor to mix spiritual and political metaphors.)

If you have more sense than to go there, maybe you are a better person than I am.
I must be really bad and out of control if even my atheist friends who hate Christianity with a passion won't dare make fun of the problems to the extent that I do, but will shut up first.

My suggested listenings were not intended to be taken as anything more than a background of levity to the KumBaYa campfire of "understanding" you seem to be organizing.

0. All this talk of heaven and coming to jesus makes me laugh. I couldn't care less what Jimmy boy wants so send him a PM instead of piggy backing on your replies to my posts please.

I doubt you will find a universal language that covers the stink of false premises.

Not to be rude but the business at hand is whether heaven is real.

What THAT begs is whether god is real or if the creation of the idea of heaven in the bible is based on anything real.

The OP never intended for a serious discussion to break out as is obvious by his pre pubescent comments and lame insults proves.

1. My interest in heaven is aligned with my interest in justice as it is the payoff in the big christian scam.

2. Heaven is only as real as it is usefull bait and an alternative to it's counterpart when enlisting the naive and the weak to throw themselves on the mercy of the perpetrators of the fraud.

3. I understand that my input is a spit in the ocean as the ponzi scheme was almost completely successfull. Too little...too late? Maybe but as long as there are people like yourself unwilling to let those that found holes in the net be myself and others like me must say what we can.

Hi Huggy
1. if you and I are this equally concerned about justice, and addressing and correcting the wrongs done by abuse of either religious authority of church law and/or political authority of state law, then I do join with you on this.
It tells me you and Bruce are committed by conscience to outting the wrongs, if you bother to interact at all with Christians on this matter. Some of my friends have well given up and won't even bother. So it tells me you and Bruce are of good conscience to keep seeking truth and justice even at the expense of persecution for it.

2. No, the point is NOT to be as a doormat and "turn the other cheek" as in letting people "slap you around" or in this case people slapping each other back and forth.

The point is to arrest all the slapping altogether.

The point of "turning the other cheek" is not to slap "backhanded" as masters did to their slaves who were considered "noncitizens" and underdeserving of a forehanded slap.
The point of offering the other cheek is to demand to be "rebuked as a peer" as an EQUAL.

And that is what we are supposed to be doing here, not putting each other down, or trying to cut each other down, but remove the "beams and splinters" from our eyes so we can see our faults clearly which tend to be MUTUAL.

so for your last point
3. we are all tiny parts of a bigger solution.
The insights you have or Bruce offers as to where things are missing their mark,
are equally needed as are Jim and Irish's contributions and feedback.

We got on the subject of justice, but without justice there is no peace.
So if we can figure out how to establish justice without punishing ourselves and each
other collectively and collaterally for past damages,
maybe we can master the process of making peace by establishing truth and
agreement on just solutions.

Thank you Huggy

Your humility in thinking you are a just a "drop" next to the vast ocean or tsunami of destruction going on
is actually refreshing and revealing.

it is the meek who shall inherit the earth and be called the children of God or peacemakers.

You and Bruce may have exactly what it takes to brave the storm
and do your small part to make a difference, rather than do nothing at all
which is playing the victim.

It only take 2-5 people agreeing on reform, and things set in motion.

So if you me and Bruce can agree how to talk about these things,
how to set up a grievance and rebuke process that doesn't involve
slamming secular gentiles and nontheists for thinking in nonBiblical terms,
maybe we can get somewhere instead of this same tidal wave of
religious based rejection and abuse continuing on and on without any correction.

This has been an ongoing issue, and some of the "academic Christians" have responded when I brought up these ideas of how to communicate across religious lines.

Bruce is highly intellectual, even more discerning than I am where I am okay taking shortcuts and using figurative symbology to represent holistic ideas, where he demands more literal terms spelled out.

if we can translate all this symbology in Christian religious and Biblical terms and teachings
into common social psychology and science terms for the human development process,
we can help a lot more people stop the infighting and backbiting with religious abuse and political bullying back and forth.

Thanks, Huggy
Your participation is more valuable than you might think.
I appreciate your bothering to interact here at all, as with Bruce,
and I hope you and he see the process through to the end.

You may think it is off topic, but these interactions all over this forum,
and all over the internet, are part of the larger process to "hash out
grievances and differences" and make heaven on earth out of hell.

Thank you for your part in this.
We are just drops in comparison, but that is how the whole ocean is made.
Rivers that carve out paths through mountains are made up of drops of water.
It takes every atom of every molecule to make matter,
so each part serves its purpose in the greater scheme.

It is wonderful to find other people who (like me) did not come from a Christian background and do not naturally think like Christians teach, bothering to reach out and try to do something about the problem this causes when religions are imposed by judgment.

I have struggled and struggled to make sense of the meaning and purpose that drives Christians, and how to translate that and align it with the same call for reform and justice as secular and other groups believe in pushing for just as relentlessly.

If we can learn to push as a team, and not against one another, how much more can we achieve in changing the social conditions that oppress and divide us, ending poverty and curing disease?

We can do a lot more if we can communicate effectively across political and religious lines and not attack or reject each other over affiliations we have or don't have.

We have a lot more to learn and to master from past experiences and failures, so thanks for whatever you are doing towards that end, on or off topic, it still matters.

Maybe you and Bruce are here to help me. So if nothing else, you make a difference to me.
Thanks for this!

 

[JimBowie1958]

Well said.

sad

Maybe, but you provide no counter argument.
Some sad things are also true.

You gave him no argument to counter in the first place, twat faced whore.