How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[thebrucebeat]

I'm not teaching this.
I'm mocking it.
Please tighten up your posts. Some people on here are very busy.

1. Are you not convinced yourself that this is what God means to Christians?
And you are pointing this out as a TRULY EXISTING problem
(which you are then mocking).

This is what I mean by enforcing it, by spreading the perception that
it IS what is being taught by Christians.

Bruce what would it take for you to believe
this is NOT the meaning of God, NOT what Christianity means
and NOT what Christians are teaching or should be teaching.

Would it take a public declaration and agreement between the Pope
and heads of all major religions to agree that God is NOT this punitive authority figure?

What would you need to see before you would
stop "teaching that Christians are teaching this thing about God"

2. Thanks for you help to do this, to eliminate the excess,

my posts will get shorter as we focus on what
the root problem really is we can do something about[/QUOTE]

I confront that absurd notion constantly.
You don't like my methods, but I am not supporting the teaching of a cruel god that punishes people that don't either choose him or believe in him.
To suggest that is simply silly, Emily.
Do you listen at all to where people actually get their theology?
The evangelists, the mega church mouthpieces, the prosperity pitch men and so on?
Your quest for a more enlightened Christianity is an uphill slog.
When I was preaching I tried to move a mainstream church, not an evangelical right wing congregation, more in the direction that you are hoping you can get to catch fire.
They wanted none of it. They want that old time religion. It is familiar, comfortable. Many don't actually believe it, but they want it maintained anyway because it is the language they understand and the traditions they know.
When I finally found even the enlightened version to be littered with self deception, I finally had to go.
There was nothing left there.

 

[emilynghiem]

__________________________________________________________________________________

True Christianity will never capitulate to the demands of false interfaithism and won't be joining the new age one world religion which is currently gaining momentum under the interfaithism banner. It is already falling apart at the seams due to Sharia law intro to Catholic faith and dialogue ongoing - the pope doesn't represent christianity. Nor does He speak for God and His Written Word ( obviously! ) He represents the catholic church which is a completely separate matter. ( which he is presently misleading imo ) Just to clarify that one. Christians teach the Word of God and we don't alter the Word of God to accomodate those it offends. It is what it is. Quite "Literally"...

Thanks for reading. - Jeremiah[/QUOTE]

Hi J: I also do not agree with losing the meaning of Christianity by "only focusing" on the relative parts that other religions have also and saying "they are all the same"

Yes and no.

Yes, all the languages for the laws have their purpose, so all the tribes have their place and are needed to govern those respective people and nations or groups.

But also,
it IS true that Jesus Christ represents something unique that cannot be gotten by works through any of these systems, not even Christianity, there is something central in Christ that is needed for salvation of humanity.

This part cannot be supplanted or replaced by any "thing" in any religion.

And that is the universal connection by conscience where all humanity receives
the spirit of "restorative justice with mercy" that unites all people of all nations and tribes.

None other that the unique central and unifying authority of Christ Jesus
can bring about this unity by conscience, by free will and reason,
where people naturally recognize and follow and are compelled by choice not by force.

So that part is unique.

where I agree with universal inclusion
is that this central and unifying spirit of Christ Jesus
fulfills ALL the paths, from both branches and all subsidiaries.

So it is one spirit that will unite all,
and everyone will be called according to their own language and laws
that Jesus fulfills equally as Justice for all people of all cultures and callings.

Currently the complaints I hear of "interfaith" is that they leave out that part.
They focus on including people of different cultures as the first step.

We have yet to complete the entire process where we integrate
all knowledge and understanding in a way that clearly fulfills
the process, and doesn't dilute it or lose the message. Not there yet.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Many denominations are not bible literalists.
You need to get out of your bubble and meet the world.

If they don't take the Word literally they don't have the Word - that is the Word of God, Bruce. Take it up with God. It's His Word and His Word defines the Believer. Not the latest fad in the backslidden churches of America. ( or new age interfaithism movement ) Thanks on the invite but I'm right where I'm supposed to be... .

Hi J:
* I found some Christian take the 7 days of creation literally as 7 earth days.
* And others interpret these as "1000 years of man make one year to God"
and count this as 6000 years of humanity's development
* while others intepret the 1000 years loosely to mean "ages or eras/stages"
so that we have gone through different stages of development
and are in the last stages or "days" now

I don't think it is necessary for all people to agree completely
in order to serve good common purpose. We can still agree on the
"seasons" and go through the changes or steps in process, even if we divide
that process into different calendars or timeframes.

In Scott Peck's book he also acknowledged that some Christians read the Bible
literally and are not on the same timeline as others who see there are stages
of "evolution" that go back millions of years. He referred to demonic entities in his patients he sensed
were "older" from the ancient days at the beginning of creation, while some seems
"younger" with lighter faster energy. He mentioned there were both perspectives
in how to frame the world views.

This is like how some people may depict the world using photography which is realistic, while others using "abstract" drawing or painting that is symbolic, not exact replicas.

And yet we still refer to the same world, even if our representations or expressions
differ that much!

I have heard that discussion myself before, Emily. It is of no difference to me. It is also a far cry from a dispute on the doctrines of Christ which the Christian must weigh all teaching by. If it is not a doctrine of Christ we are not to allow it in our front door much less listen to it.. There is much out there that is being passed off as part of Christs teaching. Which is false.

Example * Television Channel on history of Jesus titled Jesus had Jesus saying all kinds of things he never said! He sounded like some sort of Buddhist monk! I said to myself, has the world gone mad? Is anyone catching this misrepresentation of Jesus? I see an undercurrent of false teaching sweeping this country such as I have never seen before. Perhaps it is sweeping the entire earth. Who knows. I only know that the truth is still the truth and I'll still be preaching it when Jesus comes back. - Jeri

 

[emilynghiem]

I confront that absurd notion constantly.
You don't like my methods, but I am not supporting the teaching of a cruel god that punishes people that don't either choose him or believe in him.
To suggest that is simply silly, Emily.
Do you listen at all to where people actually get their theology?
The evangelists, the mega church mouthpieces, the prosperity pitch men and so on?
Your quest for a more enlightened Christianity is an uphill slog.
When I was preaching I tried to move a mainstream church, not an evangelical right wing congregation, more in the direction that you are hoping you can get to catch fire.
They wanted none of it. They want that old time religion. It is familiar, comfortable. Many don't actually believe it, but they want it maintained anyway because it is the language they understand and the traditions they know.
When I finally found even the enlightened version to be littered with self deception, I finally had to go.
There was nothing left there.

Dear Bruce: I am happy to help you write out a book that explains this.
Carlton Pearson also had to leave behind his church, and all his books
and materials tied to it, in order to start over when he realized
he was teaching a false message. He was rejected by his own church,
had to part ways, wrote out his book and still is
criticized by other ministers for what he says they think goes against the gospel.

He does make some errors in going too far in preaching against hell even existing,
and deserves some of this criticism. But his points about salvation being greater
than all this "hellfire and damnation business" are mainly correct.

If you would like to write a book, I am happy to help in any way I can.
I have extra copies of "Gospel of Inclusion" if that would inspire you to write out
and share what your vision and message is you believe is missing. I'm sure
Pearson would love to have more company in rebuking the other church leaders teaching
a conflicting negative message and image of God.

I wanted to write a book called "Jesus for Gentiles"
that explains the meaning of the Bible in common language
and not all this religious gobbledy-gook

I would love to hear how you would teach or correct things,
and can connect you to other people who gave up on these other Christians, too.

One friend used to preach in the Baptist church,
realized it was all fake to him, and now does all his outreach
as an Atheist, teaching abundance of free grace and compassion
peace and justice for humanity but without the Jesus/God worship.

The other friend is a theologian I met online only, and sent books to.
He related to Carlton Pearson's approach.
But instead of focusing on the positive, he
general condemns these fundamental preachers and Christianity,
and also has the same negative view of humanity as hopelessly selfish.

I told him if he teaches that, how is that different than condemning people to hell?

I think you could speak to an audience who very much wants to address this
honestly in the open. You are very precise, so I think you could do quite well.

Have you consider a website or book outreach?
I would love to back you up, and bring in others with similar grievances
that are overdue to be addressed. I see a lot more positive than negative that could come from this.

If we can get this right, maybe then we can do something about
religious abuse in other groups, or also political abuse by whole parties.

Nobody wants to go against the system, out of fear of change, but if we make it safe to
speak out in an acceptable way to invoke corrections, we can change that pattern.
and correct these ongoing abuses instead of spreading negative teachings.

But we can't criticize others for fearing change, if we give up out of fear also.
Anything I can do to support you, let me know. If we keep it positive,
then people will listen and respond who feel the same way, and it has better
chance of reception than if it is all this negative stuff that everyone is tired of hearing!

 

[thebrucebeat]

I confront that absurd notion constantly.
You don't like my methods, but I am not supporting the teaching of a cruel god that punishes people that don't either choose him or believe in him.
To suggest that is simply silly, Emily.
Do you listen at all to where people actually get their theology?
The evangelists, the mega church mouthpieces, the prosperity pitch men and so on?
Your quest for a more enlightened Christianity is an uphill slog.
When I was preaching I tried to move a mainstream church, not an evangelical right wing congregation, more in the direction that you are hoping you can get to catch fire.
They wanted none of it. They want that old time religion. It is familiar, comfortable. Many don't actually believe it, but they want it maintained anyway because it is the language they understand and the traditions they know.
When I finally found even the enlightened version to be littered with self deception, I finally had to go.
There was nothing left there.

Dear Bruce: I am happy to help you write out a book that explains this.
Carlton Pearson also had to leave behind his church, and all his books
and materials tied to it, in order to start over when he realized
he was teaching a false message. and he was rejected and still is
criticized by other ministers.

He does make some errors in going too far and deserves some of this criticism.

If you would like to write a book, I am happy to help in any way I can.

I wanted to write a book called "Jesus for Gentiles"
that explains the meaning of the Bible in common language
and not all this religious gobbledy-gook

I would love to hear how you would teach,
and can connect you to other people who gave up on these other Christians, too.

One friend used to preach in the Baptist church,
realized it was all fake to him, and now does all his outreach
as an atheist, teaching abundance of free grace and compassion
peace and justice for humanity but without the Jesus/God worship.

The other friend is a theologian I met online and sent books to.
He related to Carlton Pearson's approach.
But general condemns these fundamental preachers,
and also has the same negative view of humanity as hopelessly selfish.

I told him if he teaches that, how is that different than condemning people to hell?

I think you could speak to an audience who very much wants to address this
honestly in the open.

Let me know if you would consider a website or book outreach.
I would love to back you up, and bring in others with similar grievances
that are overdue to be addressed.

If we can get this right, maybe then we can do something about
religious abuse in other groups, or also political abuse by whole parties.

Nobody wants to go against the system, out of fear of change, but if we make it safe to
speak out in an acceptable way to invoke corrections, we can change that pattern.

But we can't criticize others for fearing change, if we give up out of fear also.
Anything I can do to support you, let me know. If we keep it positive,
then people will listen and respond who feel the same way, and it has better
chance of reception than if it is all this negative stuff that everyone is tired of hearing!

If I thought that would be useful, I would do it myself.
I have a website and am a published freelancer.
But you can't sell what there is a tiny market for.
Jim Wallis, Tony Campolo, Shane Claiborne, Sloane Coffin, Marcus Borg have all fought the good fight, and their books are a pimple on the bare butt of the Christian publishing market. The Christian retail market doesn't even carry these books.
The idea that recognizing the sorry state of the heart of man is the same as the preaching of god's retribution against the non-believer is a non-starter, Emily.
You can make the case that the fight, though unwinnable, is the effort of the preservation of your own heart. I can swallow that.
But the holding back of a tidal wave has never been accomplished, and your game plan seems no more likely to succeed than a child's beach bucket against the onrushing wave.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Sigh...

I hate it when a nice person drops by to break up a good bar fight

Lots of folks learn to be viscerally anti-religion based on very bad experiences with same.

As you say, all people are cut from different cloths and none of us are the best representative of any group.

smiles and thanks RKMB

Perhaps if the Christians on here admitted and demonstrated we do need to do better to
"speak the truth with love" and forgive and love our neighbors as Christ does
(ie unconditionally, with faith that corrections made will be equal between us),

and we DO need to be open to receive rebuke and correction and not reject it,
maybe Bruce and Huggy would not have such a "negative perception" that
Christians "do not follow their own teachings" so it is "all hypocrisy."

If we will not even receive or share corrections among ourselves as the Bible calls for us to seek, of course, Christianity appears nothing more than a huge "cult" or "scam" to rook followers and justify abuses instead of correcting them, claiming to forgive these, while allowing injustice to go unchecked by "blaming the critics" and denying responsibility for our fault in the conflicts, where both accuse the other of ulterior motives instead of correcting the problems being complained of.

Perhaps if more people saw that it actually DOES work to rebuke Christians within the spirit of the laws (not dividing or rejecting in conflict with them), so that these corrections ARE RECEIVED between peers, and it DOES make a difference,
they might be more open to the idea that
the message and laws in the Bible ARE valid and have authority after all.
And just because people are flawed in following or abusing these, doesn't mean they don't work. These laws can be enforced to compel believers to RECEIVE CORRECTION and follow consistently for the sake of truth and justice (and not for religious agenda or control), by NOT using the same "negative rejection, judgment, and coercion" that the critics oppose so much.

Not just with the Scriptural laws, but Constitutional laws can also be used to rebuke and correct problems (instead of playing "control games" to coerce people by attacking each other's groups as the problem). If we could correct political problems by agreeing to enforce common Constitutional principles that all people and parties align on,
this renews faith that we are under the same laws and invoking authority based on that which is common and equal among all people, and not just a tool for one group to use against another.

If we show how the church laws can also be used to correct problems, then there would not be such a loss in faith that these laws DO serve a positive purpose to help people, instead of merely enabling religious abuse to divide conquer and control by group force.

Power, money... all men are human, the churches are not immune. The result being what you see here with some men hating all who love one another because of what some humans did to them while proclaiming their rule over said love. Nutz. Have faith... but verify

Has anyone done that?

I mean, verified there's a heaven.

Besides the little 4yo whose daddy took 7 years to brainwash him into believing his dug-induced hallucinations were actually a visit to heaven.

That's really the crux of this - faith makes it possible for some to believe in spite of not having any real evidence.

To each their own but that doesn't work for me.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

That is very kind of you to say, considering that I represent something you aren't particularly supportive of.
I give you serious credit for that.
Rep given.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god? I'm glad that makes you feel safe, because we sure wouldn't want you to shit your pants.

Lol, I never attributed anything I couldn't explain to God, dumbass.

The infinite regression fallacy proves mathematically that one cannot be in the present after an infinitely long period of time. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

If you weren't so stupid perhaps you could grasp the point.

You're right, I can't figure out what that phrase has to do with the subject at hand. Another deflection perhaps?

It proves that the flow of time had to have a point of origin at some point, and whatever it came from is eternal if you go back far enough, 'eternal' meaning that the source for time is outside the flow of time itself.

Did that help, or do I need to burp you now too?

 

[JimBowie1958]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now you can see why you earned a rep, Jeremiah, and it wasn't for the compliment, per se.
Jim is what we come to expect from believers, and you were able to rise above that and separate your beliefs from an issue that is not connected to them.
That was no small thing.
Jim undermines his credibility with almost every post he makes and brings shame on his faith tradition.
For one moment, you rose above that.
Pretty cool.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Roberts Liardon was caught up to heaven at age 8 during prayer. He taught at ORU as a young boy. His experiences about his visitation to heaven are well documented. He was accused of being involved in a homosexual affair some years ago and took time away from the ministry. He has been seriously attacked by those who should have been backing him in prayer. That is another story but Roberts experience was genuine and he has never changed his story. I have not heard of anyone who prayed with the anointing that Roberts prayed with. Very unusual man.

Roberts taught on spiritual climates and said the spiritual climate on continent of Africa was far more turbulent warfare than in America. It is impossible that he would have understood things such as that at a young age unless he had a supernatural understanding of the spiritual realm we live in.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

That is very kind of you to say, considering that I represent something you aren't particularly supportive of.
I give you serious credit for that.
Rep given.

It's true. I'm not being kind. You've got serious talent. There is no question about it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Jim, I love you but I disagree with you. See this?

written by Bruce:

You can make the case that the fight, though unwinnable, is the effort of the preservation of your own heart. I can swallow that.
But the holding back of a tidal wave has never been accomplished, and your game plan seems no more likely to succeed than a child's beach bucket against the onrushing wave.
__________________

That's a writer!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now you can see why you earned a rep, Jeremiah, and it wasn't for the compliment, per se.
Jim is what we come to expect from believers, and you were able to rise above that and separate your beliefs from an issue that is not connected to them.
That was no small thing.
Jim undermines his credibility with almost every post he makes and brings shame on his faith tradition.
For one moment, you rose above that.
Pretty cool.

Jim tries harder than alot of people I know. He is a diamond and with a little polishing he will shine brilliantly. I undermined my own credibility for years by backsliding and hating my own life. Jim is lightyears ahead of me this is just a place he is working out. I've got my own spots - the Putin spot for instance - lol... we all have spots we need to buff out. I think your writing is excellent and I don't have to agree with you to notice the talent before me. You should be writing every day, Bruce.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now you can see why you earned a rep, Jeremiah, and it wasn't for the compliment, per se.
Jim is what we come to expect from believers, and you were able to rise above that and separate your beliefs from an issue that is not connected to them.
That was no small thing.
Jim undermines his credibility with almost every post he makes and brings shame on his faith tradition.
For one moment, you rose above that.
Pretty cool.

Jim tries harder than alot of people I know. He is a diamond and with a little polishing he will shine brilliantly. I undermined my own credibility for years by backsliding and hating my own life. Jim is lightyears ahead of me this is just a place he is working out. I've got my own spots - the Putin spot for instance - lol... we all have spots we need to buff out. I think your writing is excellent and I don't have to agree with you to notice the talent before me. You should be writing every day, Bruce.

I do.

 

[emilynghiem]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now Now Jim

If he were so talented, he would be a millionaire,
writing the same kind of doo doo that makes so much money.

But our friend Bruce has such a conscience for truth
even Christians trying their best to uphold the highest standards
don't meet his. He is not a sell out, or like others he could hype
up his arguments and push a book just to make money.
He has a higher calling than that. Like how Buddha knew there was something wrong
with the ways of the world, and what he was taught to do to get by,
which he knew inside was not enough. He knew there was a higher truth
and these people around him were not cutting it. Bruce knows there is more that is being missed.

By the time he does write out his treatise or theses, like Luther seeking reform
of a corrupted church hierarchy exploiting things for their own gain,
he will narrow it down to just the points that hit home with everyone.
I have no doubt he will nail it.

Maybe he will call his book the Narrow Gate
when he finds the rare path of righteousness
that rings true for all people, and becomes a bestseller.

It will not be BS but will be the raw essential truth.
I could see this coming from Bruce by the time he
edit outs all the other stuff clouding the arguments.

I've been trying for years to write this out.
maybe where Bruce and I agree on concepts and language,
whatever fine line and points we can agree on
those would speak to all Gentiles trying to make sense of the Bible and Christianity
from a purely secular viewpoint.

All the BS would be eliminated, and leave only the key points.
That are truly universal, where Christians and nontheists
fully agree and have no issues to argue with.

Yes I could see Bruce either writing or co-editing such a book.
It would be very short, just addressing the key issues that throw people off,
and get messed up with contradictory teachings. (Like what is the deal with heaven and hell,
what is the connection between God's unconditional forgiveness and man's justice,
were there stages of humanity before the Adamic or Mosaic lineage, what is process
where past like karma or generational curses or sins are repeated, how does salvation
work if some souls died before Christ, etc etc)

I could see Bruce and others collaborating on how to teach this or that principle
or answer key questions rationally, and not add some hocus pocus
flawed argument justified by religious tradition or faith in biblical authority
as the reason it is to be accepted. but really spelling out what these things
mean, how the process or laws work, that answer and resolve the objections
and reconcile with other sources from science to other religions that teach similar concepts.

Bruce brings up valid points, so there must be a way to explain them that make sense
if these are truly universal concepts that apply to all people naturally.
if the way the Bible and Christianity is taught is self-contradictory, these should be
corrected so the message is accurate and true, and clearly makes sense logically.

if this is done right, Christians will also agree that it is true to the spirit and isn't compromising or diluting/changing it to be watered down or false.
how can we meet both standards, and not compromise either the message in Christianity nor logic under natural laws and secular science. the real truth would hold up to both examinations and be consistent. how do we write that out.

 

[Smilebong]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now you can see why you earned a rep, Jeremiah, and it wasn't for the compliment, per se.
Jim is what we come to expect from believers, and you were able to rise above that and separate your beliefs from an issue that is not connected to them.
That was no small thing.
Jim undermines his credibility with almost every post he makes and brings shame on his faith tradition.
For one moment, you rose above that.
Pretty cool.

Who is "we?"

 

[JimBowie1958]

You have a gift for writing, Bruce. I can see that.

lol, yeah, writing bullshit.

Now you can see why you earned a rep, Jeremiah, and it wasn't for the compliment, per se.
Jim is what we come to expect from believers, and you were able to rise above that and separate your beliefs from an issue that is not connected to them.
That was no small thing.
Jim undermines his credibility with almost every post he makes and brings shame on his faith tradition.
For one moment, you rose above that.
Pretty cool.

Who is "we?"

His local coven.

 

[MrMax]

Lol, I never attributed anything I couldn't explain to God, dumbass.

The infinite regression fallacy proves mathematically that one cannot be in the present after an infinitely long period of time. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

If you weren't so stupid perhaps you could grasp the point.

You're right, I can't figure out what that phrase has to do with the subject at hand. Another deflection perhaps?

It proves that the flow of time had to have a point of origin at some point, and whatever it came from is eternal if you go back far enough, 'eternal' meaning that the source for time is outside the flow of time itself.

Did that help, or do I need to burp you now too?

Sure.

But I still fail to see what it has to do with what I said, which is this: So anything you don't know and/or are afraid of, you attribute to god?
So to keep your Big Bang theme going, because you don't know the what and why of the BB, that it has to be some invisible superbeing's doing? And this "god" has some kind of code that you need to follow?