How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

Thanks to you for being here,
and to Jim for putting up with this "party line" in heaven
just getting started on this thread.

Hey, it wont be my phone bill that's due!

 

[thebrucebeat]

He asked for verification.
You confirm you can provide none.

What a piece of shit liar you are.

I know; its just incredible how libtards think that they can prove their case with bald faced lies.

And they do it so much.

Interesting that you both do hit and run posts with accusations you don't support.
Such admirable men of god!

 

[JimBowie1958]

What a piece of shit liar you are.

I know; its just incredible how libtards think that they can prove their case with bald faced lies.

And they do it so much.

Interesting that you both do hit and run posts with accusations you don't support.
Such admirable men of god!

A person can simply read your posts......

 

[thebrucebeat]

I know; its just incredible how libtards think that they can prove their case with bald faced lies.

And they do it so much.

Interesting that you both do hit and run posts with accusations you don't support.
Such admirable men of god!

A person can simply read your posts......

Then it should be easy to point one out that you can demonstrate is a "lie".
Cite one, and support your accusation.

 

[JohnA]

So, for some, Heaven is an actual physical place?

Is it in the sky?

If so, why can't we see it with telescopes? Why don't our astronauts pass it?

if heaven is above us and hell below us does that mean you can see hell from australia heheeheh

 

[JimBowie1958]

So, for some, Heaven is an actual physical place?

Is it in the sky?

If so, why can't we see it with telescopes? Why don't our astronauts pass it?

if heaven is above us and hell below us does that mean you can see hell from australia heheeheh

Australia is a subdivision; just ask them after this last summer, lol.

Had a friend fro Australia who used to like saying that, 'In the beginning God created heaven and Earth, but he let the Devil have Hell and Texas. The Devil decided to live in Hell and rent out Texas.'

Havent heard that from him in a while.

 

[MrMax]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

 

[RKMBrown]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

My house.

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily... please... we are not discussing the question "what is pornography?" where the answer is truly up to the individuals perception.

We are discussing what to some religious folks the concept of heaven ..the "reality" of heaven is as true as the existance Disney Land.

We are discussing what to some folks like myself where the possibility of a place called heaven is totally impossible.

All this talk of shades of grey and concepts that resemble what heaven means to each individual are cop outs to the real question.

Question: Is there a place you can go with god's permission when you die that we call heaven?

Yes ?...or...No ?

With THAT question there are associated questions that need answered including : Is there an individual spirit that lives on after we die? among others.

The question IS NOT if heaven is a place where god lives...or is heaven a place here on earth? or in some people's minds that are now still living?

You guys are having a "special" discussion about the merits of HOW to have a discussion but you are getting no closer to answering the original question.

Hi Huggy
it is YES it is an absolute concept or state or realm on a spiritual or collective level
and NO it is not expressed the same for all people

it is not "either yes or no"
but BOTH at the same time
both absolute in the principle BEHIND heaven
and RELATIVE in the experience or expression of it

Dogs exist, there is a difference between dogs and cats.
But each species or each individual dog is different from others.

But they are clearly DOGS and we still recognize them as DOGS
even though the individuals are UNIQUE and the species are DIFFERENT.
Some quite contrasting and opposite of others in their character and traits!

heaven and hell are like that.
an absolute principle behind both that are clearly distinguishable.
but in how people experience or express these,
I have seen all kinds of variations and RELATIVELY
they are EQUIVALENT of heaven and hell by other people's parallel systems
but they are NOT THE SAME though they reflect the same thing.

is this better?
Thanks Huggy

I do appreciate you and Jim, Bruce and others here.

I think our differences are GOOD and NEEDED.
Thanks for sharing and I look forward to more in the future!
On even more issues that have long needed to be resolved,
for which I will start a new thread for you, Bruce and others to have at it
and hash it all out. We NEED this.

when we realize changing each other's views is NOT necessary
to reconcile to reach peaceful agreements, that is a HUGE step.
As we change our perception of how our different views
fit together and complete a larger picture, it changes how we see the world
and the process going on in it.

So THAT is what realizing heaven is about.
that understanding that brings peace, and all life is seen in new light.

 

[emilynghiem]

Thanks to you for being here,
and to Jim for putting up with this "party line" in heaven
just getting started on this thread.

Hey, it wont be my phone bill that's due!

Doesn't the saying go that Jesus already "paid the tab" for all debts?
And since he had no debts of his own to pay back,
all the charity and thanksgiving is paid FORWARD?

In the secular realm, the military who sacrifice their lives as sacred duty to defend
freedom we have as Americans, are honored for paying "with their blood" for our liberty
including "free speech" we have in this country. Or, at least, the military is credited for
developing the internet that everyone uses freely worldwide as accessible.

Hats off to the military for defending free speech!

May we use our freedom of speech and press
to hash out our issues, educate ourselves and others, heal old wounds,
uplift one another to be better people with greater understanding,
and make the most of the gifts, talents and resources we have in life.

Thank you!

 

[emilynghiem]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

 

[emilynghiem]

Interesting that you both do hit and run posts with accusations you don't support.
Such admirable men of god!

Yes, Bruce, so you are here to point that out
so if there are "wise men" among us,
they will "accept your rebuke."

You also questioned my intent or purpose as
coming across as "disingenuous"
but you were polite, honest and explained
why you had issues with what I posted.

Not everyone is as skilled and astute as you are, Bruce.
But with time, maybe your influence can rub off on others.
And some good ideas others have to share in return,
can benefit you as well!

The "quid pro quo" is on the level of man, where we
are only received so far as we open up to receive others.

But if you look at the whole process enabling all of us
to share back and forth, that part is given freely.
Regardless if we abuse our freedoms or use them "wisely"
we still are given equal freedom to experiment with both
ways of communicating or rejecting each other,
until we learn how to be the most effective.

Thanks for being one of the wiser.
I hope the GOOD influences of people here
affect you more than the opposite, and vice versa.

No one here benefits from acting or becoming even more like the
negative people we criticize. In order to maintain
the higher ground, that's where it helps to be the bigger person.

Thank you for challenging us all to be bigger better people.
This may not be your original intention, but the process we are
engaging in has its own higher purpose that tends to take precedent.

If we follow through to the end, you might see Jim open up more
and not be so hurt and hardened from injustice he has seen in the past.
I think he has worse wounds than you do, who seem to keep your
"righteous indignance" in stride. Jim has some very deep issues
on his heart, so that is why I don't see how I could judge him
for how he reacts sometimes. that is part of the healing, it takes
time, and I am not going to argue with what someone needs to work it all out,
especially not someone like Jim and what he's endured in the past.

Thanks to you and Jim and everyone here.

May all our deepest fears and burdens be rooted out
and released in the process of these interactions,
so all the very best comes forth to outweigh the past
issues that brought us to this point. May everyone be
blessed with even more to appreciate and celebrate as we go!

 

[MrMax]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

So when I die I'm going inside you?

 

[RKMBrown]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

So when I die I'm going inside you?

Troll.

 

[HUGGY]

Emily... please... we are not discussing the question "what is pornography?" where the answer is truly up to the individuals perception.

We are discussing what to some religious folks the concept of heaven ..the "reality" of heaven is as true as the existance Disney Land.

We are discussing what to some folks like myself where the possibility of a place called heaven is totally impossible.

All this talk of shades of grey and concepts that resemble what heaven means to each individual are cop outs to the real question.

Question: Is there a place you can go with god's permission when you die that we call heaven?

Yes ?...or...No ?

With THAT question there are associated questions that need answered including : Is there an individual spirit that lives on after we die? among others.

The question IS NOT if heaven is a place where god lives...or is heaven a place here on earth? or in some people's minds that are now still living?

You guys are having a "special" discussion about the merits of HOW to have a discussion but you are getting no closer to answering the original question.

Hi Huggy
it is YES it is an absolute concept or state or realm on a spiritual or collective level
and NO it is not expressed the same for all people

it is not "either yes or no"
but BOTH at the same time
both absolute in the principle BEHIND heaven
and RELATIVE in the experience or expression of it

Dogs exist, there is a difference between dogs and cats.
But each species or each individual dog is different from others.

But they are clearly DOGS and we still recognize them as DOGS
even though the individuals are UNIQUE and the species are DIFFERENT.
Some quite contrasting and opposite of others in their character and traits!

heaven and hell are like that.
an absolute principle behind both that are clearly distinguishable.
but in how people experience or express these,
I have seen all kinds of variations and RELATIVELY
they are EQUIVALENT of heaven and hell by other people's parallel systems
but they are NOT THE SAME though they reflect the same thing.

is this better?
Thanks Huggy

I do appreciate you and Jim, Bruce and others here.

I think our differences are GOOD and NEEDED.
Thanks for sharing and I look forward to more in the future!
On even more issues that have long needed to be resolved,
for which I will start a new thread for you, Bruce and others to have at it
and hash it all out. We NEED this.

when we realize changing each other's views is NOT necessary
to reconcile to reach peaceful agreements, that is a HUGE step.
As we change our perception of how our different views
fit together and complete a larger picture, it changes how we see the world
and the process going on in it.

So THAT is what realizing heaven is about.
that understanding that brings peace, and all life is seen in new light.

"Is this better?"

Well... In a word.. No. Your reply did not make the question or the response any clearer.

I'm working on a path to find a more specific answer to the original question presented by the OP. His caveat that "only christians need respond" is disengenuous enough but your layers upon layers of masking the original question by including every thing under the sun could be seen as an obstruction as well.

I am less interested in your extremely generous interpretation of what heaven is as opposed to what most people having read the bible would define it as.

There are very clear parimeters of access to heaven that have nothing to do with the here and now and the "feelings" of humans toward each other.

As much as you are attempting to clarify by addition and multiplication most people attempt to find a comon denominator by division and subtraction.

My question is only concerning "the heaven" that one may or may not enter upon death as promoted by the bible and most christian teachings.

Hopefully we can leave dogs and cats out of the equation just for the sake of simplicity.

Some have eluded to a separate and parallel dimesion where heaven is located. This is more in line with the heaven to which I am referring.

If we can separate all of the "other" addresses you have cited for heaven from the one where souls or human spirits reside after death it would be more helpful to answering my curiosity.

I am beginning to realize that you may not be capable or amenible to discussing the existance of the heaven of which I am inquiring. That's fine.

Regardless of your insistance that "heaven" is all things to all people and dogs and cats and everything in existance I don't have the time or patience to explore all of those possibilities. I'll concede that your description of heaven is just too broad for the purpose of answering what seemed to be a straight forward question in the OP.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

...and also probably in a parallel universe.....

 

[JimBowie1958]

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

So when I die I'm going inside you?

Troll.

just a libtard ignotheist

 

[emilynghiem]

Re: inside or through each other

Hi MM and Huggy
even before we die,
we are connected in spirit
and carry each other's loving memories
in our thoughts and minds and "hearts"

So yes, we continue to "live on"
THROUGH other people, especially those we are closest to,
even if we are physically separated in time and space.
our energy recycles.

MM you may mean this jokingly
but in truth, the grief and recovery process
is impacted by this connection between people.
Especially with homicide, suicide and other traumatic
deaths, if ppl understand how these connections work,
then the sudden deaths do not have to be so fearful to grieve through and recover from.

I do believe it is important psychologically to understand
how closely people are connected "INSIDE", so we don't abuse
these connections to cause needless suffering.

You may have meant to just joke, but you happened to
hit on a point that is actually critical to understand
if we are going to agree on the process of heavenly peace
beyond material attachment to conditions of life and death.

Thank you for bringing up this point, even by joking.
It is a key concept.

Also any "sexual reference" that could be inferred
is also highly critical to understand. The "karma" connecting
people romantically and "sexually" is where some of the most
critical control issues are concentrated for people to work through in life.

So indirectly you refer to a lot more than you intended, with that loaded reply!
If people can deal with their male/female control issues and karma, all other issues tend to resolve themselves in the process.
This is where I believe people take their personal "mommy/daddy" issues and repeat them in their
personal relations, and project them externally on collective conflicts between "church and state" that are symbolically mother/father authority figures.

How deep do you want to go "inside" ?
We can go deeper if you want. Or you can pull out now.

So if heaven is "real", where is it?

Heaven is where there is perfect love and no fear.

Heaven is found within us and among us.

So when I die I'm going inside you?

What is really fascinating about "karma" we share by conscience
is it is not necessarily "linear" like before/after in time.

Life is more like a script,
where the characters scenes and actions
in the beginning, end and throughout the story
"coinfluence" each other, they are set up to
make sense as an ensemble or PROCESS as a WHOLE.

So with people like Jefferson, the vision and purpose
and legacy he envisioned for FUTURE Americans
inspired what he and George Mason and others
did or said "in the PAST" and what they wrote in our Constitution
(based on what was passed on to them from history) -- laws which we have used in the
PROCESS to get to more developed stages of democracy and equality
in the future; while we in the present also look back at the history, spirit and legacy of
the laws these founders wrote down and passed on to us,
where the spirit and vision of what they believed in and worked for
inspired and lives on through us. So we coinfluence each other
on the connected level of conscience or "spirit" that
transcends physical space and linear time.

I think that is the neatest part of all,
to recognize the cause/effect are correlated.
the chicken and egg are planned together as one process in life.

that is really cool to me, to know all people
are connected to others in this life and beyond
so all things can be corrected over time
and build up to better and better improvements.

 

[emilynghiem]

So when I die I'm going inside you?

Troll.

just a libtard ignotheist

No, these friends who have come to the party
are quite insightful, and ask honest questions, Jim.
the trolling or humorous format is no issue.

The content to their responses still points to
deeper meanings that hold significance.

Jim this is more like a Zen koan riddle and conversation
we are having. No bother, we can still talk in these
abstract terms and share meaningful thoughts and ideas.

It IS like "parallel" worlds going on!

Enjoy the Zen conversations.
Dante calls me a "special troll" myself
in my willingness to outtroll the trolling
by having real conversations that
spring from the points being made.

Some ppl may find this annoying,
but it's fine with me.
If it's okay with the people poking at us
to reply back this way? Is that fair game?

 

[emilynghiem]

OK Huggy Thanks
if you want to limit the discussion to a specific definition or concept,
what about the Buddhist approach to explaining the Christian heaven
as a state of internal spiritual peace within the person.

And then to get to the Christian concept, you multiply this state
by all the people in society on earth, or all the people in humanity over time and space,
to get the symbolic heaven that is talked about in the Bible on a "collective" scale
for "all humanity universally as one family."

Is that specific enough to describe the process and position of heaven
in terms of individual experience in life and after death?

My question is only concerning "the heaven" that one may or may not enter upon death as promoted by the bible and most christian teachings.

Hopefully we can leave dogs and cats out of the equation just for the sake of simplicity.

Some have eluded to a separate and parallel dimesion where heaven is located. This is more in line with the heaven to which I am referring.

If we can separate all of the "other" addresses you have cited for heaven from the one where souls or human spirits reside after death it would be more helpful to answering my curiosity.

I am beginning to realize that you may not be capable or amenible to discussing the existance of the heaven of which I am inquiring. That's fine.

Regardless of your insistance that "heaven" is all things to all people and dogs and cats and everything in existance I don't have the time or patience to explore all of those possibilities. I'll concede that your description of heaven is just too broad for the purpose of answering what seemed to be a straight forward question in the OP.

Biblical references:
1. the Kingdom of God is within/among us (Hebrew has been translated both ways, but I heard among is correct)
2. we must become like little children to enter the Kingdom of God (interpreted as teachable, open to receive)
3. God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven (so wherever God's will is done, that is heaven either on earth or beyond)
See also Matthew 18:15-20 that where 2-3 agree in Christ on anything touching the earth (local physical level of man), that is done by our Father in heaven (collective spiritual scale or divine level of God)

Three steps to salvation
1. first receiving a child of God, one who comes in the name or the sake of Jesus/God or love of truth/justice with mercy for all humanity
2. through receiving a child of God, one receives the spirit of Jesus or divine Justice with Mercy that is one with God's will
3. anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
so once we have taken the laws of Justice to heart and are connected by conscience to the universal level God/heaven represents
then as we use this connection to invoke God's will and truth to enter into our relations, then we save ourselves, relations and humanity from strife and suffering or sinful conditions

So this process of spiritual salvation is one
with establishing God's will or the Kingdom of God, and connecting with heavenly peace on earth and beyond on a collective scale