How Much Does One Owe....??

Can you expand a bit on the latter part?

What's to expand upon?

If I had kids they would be taught and expected to be able to live independently by age 18.
Said by a person who never had a kid. Funny. But then, when he kicked them out at 18, they could continue on the skull pilot stupidity.

Hey if you people want to raise children who are unable to be independent that's your problem.

I was independent at 17 and on my own so I know it can be done.
 
What's to expand upon?

If I had kids they would be taught and expected to be able to live independently by age 18.
Said by a person who never had a kid. Funny. But then, when he kicked them out at 18, they could continue on the skull pilot stupidity.

Hey if you people want to raise children who are unable to be independent that's your problem.

I was independent at 17 and on my own so I know it can be done.
Well, thanks for that little bit of personal history. You just proved that your point is invalid. Because look how you turned out.
 
Each child and each event is unique.

Thinking that one can raise a child by some fiscal formula is just damned silliness.
 
Said by a person who never had a kid. Funny. But then, when he kicked them out at 18, they could continue on the skull pilot stupidity.

Hey if you people want to raise children who are unable to be independent that's your problem.

I was independent at 17 and on my own so I know it can be done.
Well, thanks for that little bit of personal history. You just proved that your point is invalid. Because look how you turned out.

Yeah I put myself through college got 3 degrees and now own my own business.
 
So tell me people what is it about today's 18 year old "children" that is so different from those of the past that could and did take care of themselves?
 
So tell me people what is it about today's 18 year old "children" that is so different from those of the past that could and did take care of themselves?

Absolutely nothing.

What has changed are the conditions outside of their control.
 
One more reason to be glad not to have kids.

Although if i did have kids there is no way in hell they would be unable to be on their own at the age of 18 and i sure as hell wouldn't let a "child" of 22-30 live with me.

My friends at work took me out last night and we were just talking about the number of people our age who are raising grandchildren, and who have had to take adult children in due to job loss, etc. As stated before, it was so the opposite for me, mine were willing to take me in when I was sick. They are independent and do really well. When I was raising them, I was always telling them they needed to do well in school because there would be no way I could support them after they were grown. Then when they went to college, I told them that I was sending them to get an education, not to be in a sorority or fraternity to party, and to not even bother to join one. We all worked our butts off in those days. I have wished a thousand times over that it could have been easier on them, but I know if it had been they wouldn't be the people they are now, and I likely would have them back in my house. Most say they enjoy it for a while, and likely I would too because it seems that just when you get them where they are a real pleasure to be around as adults, they are gone. But they also tell me that is short lived. It would be for me as well.

Music is the space between the notes.
 
One more reason to be glad not to have kids.

Although if i did have kids there is no way in hell they would be unable to be on their own at the age of 18 and i sure as hell wouldn't let a "child" of 22-30 live with me.

My friends at work took me out last night and we were just talking about the number of people our age who are raising grandchildren, and who have had to take adult children in due to job loss, etc. As stated before, it was so the opposite for me, mine were willing to take me in when I was sick. They are independent and do really well. When I was raising them, I was always telling them they needed to do well in school because there would be no way I could support them after they were grown. Then when they went to college, I told them that I was sending them to get an education, not to be in a sorority or fraternity to party, and to not even bother to join one. We all worked our butts off in those days. I have wished a thousand times over that it could have been easier on them, but I know if it had been they wouldn't be the people they are now, and I likely would have them back in my house. Most say they enjoy it for a while, and likely I would too because it seems that just when you get them where they are a real pleasure to be around as adults, they are gone. But they also tell me that is short lived. It would be for me as well.

Music is the space between the notes.

Sometimes the best laid plans of man DO WORK.

Sometimes NOT.

Thinking that because you or I managed to do something that everybody else can also do it is rather egocentric.

Everybody's lives and fates are different.
 
So tell me people what is it about today's 18 year old "children" that is so different from those of the past that could and did take care of themselves?

I think part of it has to do with both patents working long hours when kids need family support. As those neglected kids get older. They find different sources for that support....other kids, social media, and television. They feel neglected and rejected by their families...which in turn, fucks with their self worth.
 
So tell me people what is it about today's 18 year old "children" that is so different from those of the past that could and did take care of themselves?

Absolutely nothing.

What has changed are the conditions outside of their control.

Well...yes and no....

And it occurred throughout the Western world.
So, how to explain this world-wide phenomenon? Attitudes, human nature, and the crossroads of history.

1. One interesting explanation involves the numbers of individual coming of age at the time, who must be civilized by their families, schools, and churches. A particularly large wave may swamp the institutions responsible for teaching traditions and standards.
Bork, "Slouching Toward Gomorrah," chapter one.

a. “Rathenau called [this] ‘the vertical invasion of the barbarians.’” Jose Ortega y Gasset, “The Revolt of the Masses,” p. 53.
The baby boomers were a generation so large that they formed their own culture. The generation from 1922-1947 numbered 43.6 million, while that of 1946-1964 had 79 million. Would it surprise anyone if this culture was opposed to that of their parents?


2. The human attempt for self-gratification is usually kept in check, within bounds, by religion, morality, law, and, by the necessity to work hard based on the fear of want. Much of the former was removed by the French Revolution, and in modern America, and another restriction was removed by the rising affluence of the last century; suppressed by WWI, and then by the Depression, but released by the 9-year expansion of the 1960’s.

The effect of affluence was increased, multiplied, by the fact that parents, who had known the hardships of the Depression, and WWII, were determined to give their children every comfort that they could.

That is the core of the error.....

3. Affluence brings the boredom of a life built on consumption, devoid of meaning. The only thing many were wanting for…is ‘want’ itself and saw suburbia as a great wasteland. The power of boredom is a much underrated emotion. The anodyne for this ‘ache’ often includes alcohol, narcotics, cruelty, pornography, violence…and zealotry in a political cause.

a. A Peter Berger quote of the times: “…not so much motivated by sympathy with black people in slums and yellow people in rice paddies as by boredom with Connecticut.”
Berger and Neuhaus, “Movement and Revolution,” p. 60



Strangely....an Obama-depression may prove aesculapian.
 
So tell me people what is it about today's 18 year old "children" that is so different from those of the past that could and did take care of themselves?

Absolutely nothing.

What has changed are the conditions outside of their control.

Well...yes and no....

And it occurred throughout the Western world.
So, how to explain this world-wide phenomenon? Attitudes, human nature, and the crossroads of history.
1. One interesting explanation involves the numbers of individual coming of age at the time, who must be civilized by their families, schools, and churches. A particularly large wave may swamp the institutions responsible for teaching traditions and standards.
Bork, "Slouching Toward Gomorrah," chapter one.

Yup. Democgraphics certainly plays a role in the changing conditions our kids are facing today.

a. “Rathenau called [this] ‘the vertical invasion of the barbarians.’” Jose Ortega y Gasset, “The Revolt of the Masses,” p. 53.
The baby boomers were a generation so large that they formed their own culture. The generation from 1922-1947 numbered 43.6 million, while that of 1946-1964 had 79 million. Would it surprise anyone if this culture was opposed to that of their parents?

Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect. My fathr's generation shocked their fathers generation who shocked THEIR father's generation too.


2. The human attempt for self-gratification is usually kept in check, within bounds, by religion, morality, law, and, by the necessity to work hard based on the fear of want.

The human attempt for self gratification is till kept in check by religion, morality and the law. All those have changed over time, but all those were changing generation by generation for at least the last 500 years.


Much of the former was removed by the French Revolution, and in modern America, and another restriction was removed by the rising affluence of the last century; suppressed by WWI, and then by the Depression, but released by the 9-year expansion of the 1960’s.

Yes, our EXPECTATION of continuingly growing affluence (in America) has been thwarted, no doubt.

The effect of affluence was increased, multiplied, by the fact that parents, who had known the hardships of the Depression, and WWII, were determined to give their children every comfort that they could.

If boomers were SO SPOILED, (which is what the above suggests) then WHY did they work more hours on average than their father did? Why did they become better educated than their fathers? This MYTH that the boomers were layabouts who had it SO
easy is entirely bullshit.

That is the core of the error.....

3. Affluence brings the boredom of a life built on consumption, devoid of meaning. The only thing many were wanting for…is ‘want’ itself and saw suburbia as a great wasteland. The power of boredom is a much underrated emotion. The anodyne for this ‘ache’ often includes alcohol, narcotics, cruelty, pornography, violence…and zealotry in a political cause.

Again with the SPOILED GENERATION explanation? I'm not buying it.

a. A Peter Berger quote of the times: “…not so much motivated by sympathy with black people in slums and yellow people in rice paddies as by boredom with Connecticut.”
Berger and Neuhaus, “Movement and Revolution,” p. 60



Strangely....an Obama-depression may prove aesculapian.

Not sure what the above means.
 
Absolutely nothing.

What has changed are the conditions outside of their control.

Well...yes and no....

And it occurred throughout the Western world.
So, how to explain this world-wide phenomenon? Attitudes, human nature, and the crossroads of history.


Yup. Democgraphics certainly plays a role in the changing conditions our kids are facing today.



Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect. My fathr's generation shocked their fathers generation who shocked THEIR father's generation too.




The human attempt for self gratification is till kept in check by religion, morality and the law. All those have changed over time, but all those were changing generation by generation for at least the last 500 years.




Yes, our EXPECTATION of continuingly growing affluence (in America) has been thwarted, no doubt.



If boomers were SO SPOILED, (which is what the above suggests) then WHY did they work more hours on average than their father did? Why did they become better educated than their fathers? This MYTH that the boomers were layabouts who had it SO
easy is entirely bullshit.

That is the core of the error.....



Again with the SPOILED GENERATION explanation? I'm not buying it.

a. A Peter Berger quote of the times: “…not so much motivated by sympathy with black people in slums and yellow people in rice paddies as by boredom with Connecticut.”
Berger and Neuhaus, “Movement and Revolution,” p. 60



Strangely....an Obama-depression may prove aesculapian.

Not sure what the above means.




"Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect."

Wow....sometimes I'm amazed as your ability to close your eyes to reality and the confluence of related events.

As I pointed out, the generation in question did as you suggest, rebel, not in itself unusual....

...but it incorporated Marxism, and that was the fuel that aimed to destroy Western civilization.

Shall I prove that?

The unrest of the sixties was born in June of 1962 at the AFL-CIO camp at Port Huron, Michigan.
Some prior rumblings had been heard in a nascent civil rights movement, and from the Free Speech movement at Berkeley- but it was the Port Huron meetings that represented the heart of Sixties radicalism.


1. Port Huron was an early convention of SDS, a small group of alienated, left-wing college students, 59 from 11 campuses.

2. One member gave this prescription: “four-square against anti-Communism, eight-square against American-culture, twelve-square against sell-out unions, one hundred and twenty against an interpretation of the Cold War that saw it as a Soviet plot and identified American policy fondly.”
Todd Gitlin, “The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage,” p. 109-110


3. A draft of the meeting can be found at
Port Huron Statement of the Students for a Democratic Society, 1962.

It sets forth an agenda for changing human nature, the nation, and the world. In it, one can hear the ignorance and arrogance so inherent in adolescents: the euphoria due to being convinced of their own wisdom, moral purity, and ability to change everything.

4. A few years after Port Huron, its organization’s offshoot and legitimate heir, the Weathermen, organized the Days of Rage riots in Chicago. At a subsequent “War Council,” Tom Hayden led the Weathermen in “a workout of karate jabs and kicks” for a “strenuous fifteen minutes” in preparation for armed struggle.
Collier and Horowitz, “Destructive Generation: Second Thoughts About The Sixties, “ p. 96





Changing human nature is at the heart of the movement.....

5. The Constitution commemorates our revolution, and, as Madison states in the ‘Federalist,’ is the greatest of all reflections on human nature…human beings are not angels.” Communist Revolution is based on the idea of transforming human nature.

“The New Soviet man or New Soviet person (Russian: новый советский человек), as postulated by the ideologists of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, was an archetype of a person with certain qualities that were said to be emerging as dominant among all citizens of the Soviet Union, irrespective of the country's long-standing cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity, creating a single Soviet people, Soviet nation.[1]
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. Leon Trotsky wrote in his Literature and Revolution [2] :

"The human species, the sluggish Homo sapiens, will once again enter the stage of radical reconstruction and become in his own hands the object of the most complex methods of artificial selection and psychophysical training... Man will make it his goal...to create a higher sociobiological type, a superman, if you will"
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


b. “Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.”
Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198


c. Progressives have a similar view: human nature is plastic; politics is a means of perfecting man!




I certainly hope your study has included the Frankfurt School of neo-Marxism, and its influence in our colleges.
 
Sunshine's post hit home to me. During the time when we wondered if our kids would ever get it all together and start making decisions that didn't terrify or frustrate or anger or at least worry us--I think all parents/kids go through that stage--there were times when they did return home briefly.

But our expectation was that they would do chores as members of the family, they were expected to pay their own way as much as they were able, and they were expected to educate themselves and prepare themselves to be self supporting. And now they both are quite personally and economically successful, and I think they worry about us more than we worry about them. :)

But in truth, before the post WWII generation, most families stayed together for most of their lives. The grown kids just built a new house on the family farm when they started a family or the newlyweds took an apartment in the same neighborhood as their parents. It was common for parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins all to live within a few miles of each other if not within walking distance. And all helped each other out during hard times and it was not uncommon to have three or more generations living in one house.

The difference now is that too many expect government to assume the role that families once filled. And too many people are more than willing to let government do it instead of accepting that as their personal responsibility. And the government is involving itself more and more in telling people how they are required to live their lives in this country.

And I see many more negatives in that than I see positives.
 
Last edited:
My kids will always have a home, ours. They still have keys, they can come over anytime and my wife and I always offer them dinner. We enjoy them, they are helpful (we brought two new puppies home last week and the boys helped me build two fences and restore the kennel which had become storage).

Both are responsible, employed, saving for the future and happy. They don't envy the very rich and do have empathy for the poor. In other words we raised two boys into men and neither is a criminal nor a callous conservative.
 
In an effort at full disclosure....The WSJ is owned by the parent company of faux news which makes everything they print questionable.

Additionally, it's nice that the WSJ publishes a story that the cause of the story has been exacerbated by the backing of the political regime they supported from 2000-2008.



'Exacerbated...'.

Excellent.

I always look forward to educated folks augmenting the level of the message board.




And that is why I am so disheartened by the egregious errors in your post.

1. When one calculates both the errors of omission, as well as errors of commission, Fox News is clearly the lest of the cable news networks likely to be called 'faux.'

2. "...backing of the political regime they supported from 2000-2008."

Even worse,....you clearly have no understanding of either economics or politics.
You see, and you should jot this down, it is the illegality of FDR's insertion of politics into the private market that is the provenance of the financial crisis.

The Constitution gives no authority to the federal government to manipulate the housing market, and therefore, Fannie and Freddie are ill-advised. Here, take this down:

a. Democrat FDR shredded the Constitution....ignoring article I, section 8, the enumerated powers.
He created GSE's Fannie and Freddie to do something the Constitution didn't authorize: meddle in housing.

b. Democrat Carter....the CRA, constraining banking policy

c. Democrat Clinton....strengthened the CRA
Under Clinton, HUD threatened banks, again, to give unrequited loans.
Henchmen: Democrats Cisneros and Cuomo.

c. Democrats Frank and Dodd barred any governmental discipline in this area.


That's the CliffNotes version.

So, you can see, these are not culprits endorsed by the WSJ.
They are Democrats.



So, I appreciate your writing....it is your education that requires....'brushing up.'

Don't hesitate to ask for more help in understanding the world.

Yeah, it is degenerating into the usual discussion.

But hey, I agree with you about not babying the "failure to launch" generation of whities. Lord, bunch of fellas I know just barely younger than myself fall into this.

Maybe its the phone instead of a car trend.

Let the partisan anger live in ither threads. I like the point of the OP.
 
Well...yes and no....

And it occurred throughout the Western world.
So, how to explain this world-wide phenomenon? Attitudes, human nature, and the crossroads of history.


Yup. Democgraphics certainly plays a role in the changing conditions our kids are facing today.



Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect. My fathr's generation shocked their fathers generation who shocked THEIR father's generation too.




The human attempt for self gratification is till kept in check by religion, morality and the law. All those have changed over time, but all those were changing generation by generation for at least the last 500 years.




Yes, our EXPECTATION of continuingly growing affluence (in America) has been thwarted, no doubt.



If boomers were SO SPOILED, (which is what the above suggests) then WHY did they work more hours on average than their father did? Why did they become better educated than their fathers? This MYTH that the boomers were layabouts who had it SO
easy is entirely bullshit.

That is the core of the error.....



Again with the SPOILED GENERATION explanation? I'm not buying it.



Not sure what the above means.




"Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect."

Wow....sometimes I'm amazed as your ability to close your eyes to reality and the confluence of related events.

As I pointed out, the generation in question did as you suggest, rebel, not in itself unusual....

...but it incorporated Marxism, and that was the fuel that aimed to destroy Western civilization.

Shall I prove that?

The unrest of the sixties was born in June of 1962 at the AFL-CIO camp at Port Huron, Michigan.
Some prior rumblings had been heard in a nascent civil rights movement, and from the Free Speech movement at Berkeley- but it was the Port Huron meetings that represented the heart of Sixties radicalism.


1. Port Huron was an early convention of SDS, a small group of alienated, left-wing college students, 59 from 11 campuses.

2. One member gave this prescription: “four-square against anti-Communism, eight-square against American-culture, twelve-square against sell-out unions, one hundred and twenty against an interpretation of the Cold War that saw it as a Soviet plot and identified American policy fondly.”
Todd Gitlin, “The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage,” p. 109-110


3. A draft of the meeting can be found at
Port Huron Statement of the Students for a Democratic Society, 1962.

It sets forth an agenda for changing human nature, the nation, and the world. In it, one can hear the ignorance and arrogance so inherent in adolescents: the euphoria due to being convinced of their own wisdom, moral purity, and ability to change everything.

4. A few years after Port Huron, its organization’s offshoot and legitimate heir, the Weathermen, organized the Days of Rage riots in Chicago. At a subsequent “War Council,” Tom Hayden led the Weathermen in “a workout of karate jabs and kicks” for a “strenuous fifteen minutes” in preparation for armed struggle.
Collier and Horowitz, “Destructive Generation: Second Thoughts About The Sixties, “ p. 96





Changing human nature is at the heart of the movement.....

5. The Constitution commemorates our revolution, and, as Madison states in the ‘Federalist,’ is the greatest of all reflections on human nature…human beings are not angels.” Communist Revolution is based on the idea of transforming human nature.

“The New Soviet man or New Soviet person (Russian: новый советский человек), as postulated by the ideologists of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, was an archetype of a person with certain qualities that were said to be emerging as dominant among all citizens of the Soviet Union, irrespective of the country's long-standing cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity, creating a single Soviet people, Soviet nation.[1]
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. Leon Trotsky wrote in his Literature and Revolution [2] :

"The human species, the sluggish Homo sapiens, will once again enter the stage of radical reconstruction and become in his own hands the object of the most complex methods of artificial selection and psychophysical training... Man will make it his goal...to create a higher sociobiological type, a superman, if you will"
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


b. “Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.”
Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198


c. Progressives have a similar view: human nature is plastic; politics is a means of perfecting man!




I certainly hope your study has included the Frankfurt School of neo-Marxism, and its influence in our colleges.

Oh, my error, PC.

I thought mistakenly that you were trying to have a serious discussion about generational changes over time.

Had I known this was just your chance to tell us more about your confused thoughts concerning Marxism, I wouldn't have troubled you with a response.
 
"Every young generation in modern times has pushed the moral envelop. Nothing especially unusual about the baby boom in that respect."

Wow....sometimes I'm amazed as your ability to close your eyes to reality and the confluence of related events.

As I pointed out, the generation in question did as you suggest, rebel, not in itself unusual....

...but it incorporated Marxism, and that was the fuel that aimed to destroy Western civilization.

Shall I prove that?

The unrest of the sixties was born in June of 1962 at the AFL-CIO camp at Port Huron, Michigan.
Some prior rumblings had been heard in a nascent civil rights movement, and from the Free Speech movement at Berkeley- but it was the Port Huron meetings that represented the heart of Sixties radicalism.


1. Port Huron was an early convention of SDS, a small group of alienated, left-wing college students, 59 from 11 campuses.

2. One member gave this prescription: “four-square against anti-Communism, eight-square against American-culture, twelve-square against sell-out unions, one hundred and twenty against an interpretation of the Cold War that saw it as a Soviet plot and identified American policy fondly.”
Todd Gitlin, “The Sixties: Years of Hope, Days of Rage,” p. 109-110


3. A draft of the meeting can be found at
Port Huron Statement of the Students for a Democratic Society, 1962.

It sets forth an agenda for changing human nature, the nation, and the world. In it, one can hear the ignorance and arrogance so inherent in adolescents: the euphoria due to being convinced of their own wisdom, moral purity, and ability to change everything.

4. A few years after Port Huron, its organization’s offshoot and legitimate heir, the Weathermen, organized the Days of Rage riots in Chicago. At a subsequent “War Council,” Tom Hayden led the Weathermen in “a workout of karate jabs and kicks” for a “strenuous fifteen minutes” in preparation for armed struggle.
Collier and Horowitz, “Destructive Generation: Second Thoughts About The Sixties, “ p. 96





Changing human nature is at the heart of the movement.....

5. The Constitution commemorates our revolution, and, as Madison states in the ‘Federalist,’ is the greatest of all reflections on human nature…human beings are not angels.” Communist Revolution is based on the idea of transforming human nature.

“The New Soviet man or New Soviet person (Russian: новый советский человек), as postulated by the ideologists of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, was an archetype of a person with certain qualities that were said to be emerging as dominant among all citizens of the Soviet Union, irrespective of the country's long-standing cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity, creating a single Soviet people, Soviet nation.[1]
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. Leon Trotsky wrote in his Literature and Revolution [2] :

"The human species, the sluggish Homo sapiens, will once again enter the stage of radical reconstruction and become in his own hands the object of the most complex methods of artificial selection and psychophysical training... Man will make it his goal...to create a higher sociobiological type, a superman, if you will"
New Soviet man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


b. “Culture is a stubborn opponent. The Soviet Union attempted to create the New Soviet Man with gulags, psychiatric hospitals, and firing squads for seventy years and succeeded only in producing a more corrupt culture.”
Bork, “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” p. 198


c. Progressives have a similar view: human nature is plastic; politics is a means of perfecting man!




I certainly hope your study has included the Frankfurt School of neo-Marxism, and its influence in our colleges.

Oh, my error, PC.

I thought mistakenly that you were trying to have a serious discussion about generational changes over time.

Had I known this was just your chance to tell us more about your confused thoughts concerning Marxism, I wouldn't have troubled you with a response.



Everything I wrote is documented....

...so the fault is simply your refusal to deal with reality.
 

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