How much is enough?

[task0778]

SEPTEMBER 29, 2021
MANCHIN STATEMENT ON INFRASTRUCTURE AND RECONCILIATION NEGOTIATIONS
Washington, DC – Today, U.S. Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV) released the following statement about infrastructure and reconciliation negotiations.

“Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party. Respectfully, as I have said for months, I can’t support $3.5 trillion more in spending when we have already spent $5.4 trillion since last March. At some point, all of us, regardless of party must ask the simple question – how much is enough?

What I have made clear to the President and Democratic leaders is that spending trillions more on new and expanded government programs, when we can’t even pay for the essential social programs, like Social Security and Medicare, is the definition of fiscal insanity. Suggesting that spending trillions more will not have an impact on inflation ignores the everyday reality that America’s families continue pay an unavoidable inflation tax. Proposing a historic expansion of social programs while ignoring the fact we are not in a recession and that millions of jobs remain open will only feed a dysfunction that could weaken our economic recovery. This is the shared reality we all now face, and it is this reality that must shape the future decisions that we, as elected leaders, must make.

Since the beginning of this reconciliation debate, I have been consistent in my belief that any expansion of social programs must be targeted to those in need, not expanded beyond what is fiscally possible. Our tax code should be reformed to fix the flaws of the 2017 tax bill and ensure everyone pays their fair share but it should not weaken our global competitiveness or the ability of millions of small businesses to compete with the Amazons of the world. Overall, the amount we spend now must be balanced with what we need and can afford – not designed to reengineer the social and economic fabric of this nation or vengefully tax for the sake of wishful spending.
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Manchin Statement On Infrastructure And Reconciliation Negotiations


So far as I can tell, The progressive wing of the democratic party is driving the train over there on their side, vote the way we demand or face the consequences of a challenge in next year's primary election. Guys - there was a reason why Bernie Sanders was not nominated to be the democrats' standard bearer: the party believed he was too radical to be electable. So they dug Biden out of his retirement home, dusted off the mothballs and rust, and here we are. So now they're going full bore towards the most radical agenda we've seen since FDR? They've gone nuts over there, all but guaranteeing a landslide shellacking akin to 2010. But will it matter that much of they can pass this monstrosity of a spending bill, plus who knows what else?

According to Manchin, they've already spent over $9 trillion just since March, and adding the $1.2 trillion Infrastructure Bill makes it over $10 trillion and they won't be done yet. And some say the the $3.5 trillion monster bill is actually over $5 trillion, so now you're pushing $12 trillion! How does anyone believe the gov't can do that without suffering any adverse consequences? Sure, let's fuck the rich and the big corps 6 ways from Sunday, no problem. They'll just take it in the shorts and keep creating jobs and businesses.

 

[Richard-H]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.

Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

 

[TNHarley]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.

Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

What an agonizingly long deflection

 

[kyzr]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:
"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"
The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.
If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.
Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

Manchin just said that he could support a $1.5T "social infrastructure" bill that helps people with incomes less than $50,000 a year, that would be about 9m people. He objects to giving tax dollars to public companies, even if they are "green".
He wants SS & Medicare "fixed".
Your partisan rationale' is the exact opposite of Manchin's position.
Manchin is looking out for the US taxpayers, you and the dems want to waste $3.5T just like Obama wasted $billions on Solyndra.
Manchin should just switch parties to the GOP like his state and governor did.

So the $1.5T bipartisan Bill + $1.5T Manchin Bill = $3T
Tell me that you would vote against $3T of "infrastructure"

 

[task0778]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.

Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

In keeping with the thread title, do you believe that the democrats can spend an unlimited amount of money on every conceivable policy or program, without any consequences? And I'm asking any other progressive liberal to join in, and please provide your rationale. I know of no credible economist who will champion that idea; sure, you can say that increased demand will generate economic growth, but is there no law of diminishing returns where at some point the amount of money in the system dwarfs the supply of goods and services? I.E., inflation destroys everything? Or do you propose an ever increasing tax and spend policy, borrowing more money into infinity? Do you believe that there will always be somebody somewhere who will finance our debt?

And here is maybe the biggest question: are you prepared to accept the consequences if you are wrong? My answer: I don't think so. Do you realize that the decisions that are made today will have an impact in the future? Is there any limit to the amount of debt you are willing to pass onto the next generations?

 

[Resnic]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.

Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

What a wall of text.

You could have saved everyone time and just said "I don't like Republicans and everything is their fault".

 

[Claudette]

task0778
How right that man is.

 

[ColonelAngus]

Manchin is a racist trumptard!

 

[Meister]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

"Every Member of Congress has a solemn duty to vote for what they believe is best for the country and the American people, not their party"

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

If the GOP would act as individuals, rather than partisan weenies, then Manchin's argument would be valid. If the GOP would act as individuals, the 'Build Back Better' act would not have to be passed through reconciliation. It would have some chance of passing thru normal procedures - as would the Voting Rights Act.

Manchin has to realize that the behavior of the GOP has been atrocious, and to some degree he should be willing to compensate for this horrible behavior by siding with his fellow Democrats. He needs to show the GOP that their behavior will not pay off. He needs to punish the GOP.

The behavior of the GOP is the greatest threat to this country - far greater than any damage the 'Build Back Better Act' could possibly cause (not to mention that the build back better act would have far more benefits for America).

Manchin should send a clear message to the GOP - if you try to overthrow Democracy, if you refuse to execute the duties of your office - there WILL BE A PRICE TO PAY!

This may be the stupidest post of the day, but it is still morning on the Pacific coast.
You are really showing just how much of a socialist you are. WE DON"T HAVE THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Social Security is going bankrupt, Medicare is upside down and rife with fraud.
And YOU want to turn over 3.5 trillion (3,500,000,000,000.00) to the government?
The government that wants the IRS to look into your bank account and see why YOU spent 600.00?
You really are stupid, or really don't care about government waste, Dick-H

 

[ColonelAngus]

This may be the stupidest post of the day, but it is still morning on the Pacific coast.
You are really showing just how much of a socialist you are. WE DON"T HAVE THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Social Security is going bankrupt, Medicare is upside down and rife with fraud.
And YOU want to turn over 3.5 trillion (3,500,000,000,000.00) to the government?
The government that wants the IRS to look into your bank account and see why YOU spent 600.00?
You really are stupid, or really don't care about government waste, Dick-H

Lefties are dumb.

That is the only conclusion to draw.

 

[Meister]

3.5 trillion (3,500.000.000.000.00) on paper will end up 5.5 trillion (5,500.000.000.000.00) at a minimum in reality.

 

[task0778]

3.5 trillion (3,500.000.000.000.00) on paper will end up 5.5 trillion (5,500.000.000.000.00) at a minimum in reality.

Then add on the $1.2 trillion bipartisan Infrastructure Bill and the $5.4 trillion that Manchin says we've spent since March, and you're over $11 trillion and climbing when you add in everything else that the gov't has to spend money on. That's what the Far Left wants to do, and would do if they had a couple more votes in the Senate to abolish the filibuster. If they ever get enough control of Congress and the White House, what would that mean?

So, I'm asking those who support the democrats, do you think all that spending is fiscally wise? Do you believe the democratic Party will stop all that spending next year, or will they continue the upward trend of ever increasing spending and the resulting debt and deficits? I don't want to hear about Trump, this is about you. What are you saying, it's okay cuz Trump did it first? Is there a point at which you say "that's enough spending, we need to stop"? Where is that point for you? Do you really believe you can spend all that money and raise taxes all that much and continue to do so into infinity without consequence? What is your economic rationale? Ever-increasing demand will solve all our problems, all we gotta do is keep spending more money that we ain't got? I don't think Keynes ever said that, so who did? Where did you get that idea?

 

[bendog]

He does seem to be pouring cold water (joke) on the dems' climate change legislation. I'm all for helping working familes making 50K and even a bit more, btw. That's been my gripe with the gop, even before Trump

 

[Richard-H]

Manchin just said that he could support a $1.5T "social infrastructure" bill that helps people with incomes less than $50,000 a year, that would be about 9m people. He objects to giving tax dollars to public companies, even if they are "green".
He wants SS & Medicare "fixed".
Your partisan rationale' is the exact opposite of Manchin's position.
Manchin is looking out for the US taxpayers, you and the dems want to waste $3.5T just like Obama wasted $billions on Solyndra.
Manchin should just switch parties to the GOP like his state and governor did.

So the $1.5T bipartisan Bill + $1.5T Manchin Bill = $3T
Tell me that you would vote against $3T of "infrastructure"

First, SS & Medicare are completely different topics. Yes, they should be fixed, but that's no excuse for blocking this bill.

Second, Manchin, as far as I know, hasn't made any public proposal for a social infrastructure. Please provide a link.

Third, if he does have such a proposal, then he and the progressives should negotiate. Neither one should refuse to compromise.

Fourth, if Manchin blocks any social infrastructure bill, then he should join the GOP. That will be the end of any national support he gets from the Democrats.

 

[kyzr]

First, SS & Medicare are completely different topics. Yes, they should be fixed, but that's no excuse for blocking this bill.

Second, Manchin, as far as I know, hasn't made any public proposal for a social infrastructure. Please provide a link.

Third, if he does have such a proposal, then he and the progressives should negotiate. Neither one should refuse to compromise.

Fourth, if Manchin blocks any social infrastructure bill, then he should join the GOP. That will be the end of any national support he gets from the Democrats.

1. I saw Manchin's $1.5b answer live on TV at a mini-presser. I'm sure his $1.5b top line number will make the news this evening.
That's trimming $2T off the $3.5T bill.

Sen. Joe Manchin gives $1.5T topline number for reconciliation bill – IOI Newz

ioinewz.com

2. Looking out for seniors is Manchin's "mission", I appreciate his holding out to fix Medicare and SS.

3. The progs are the ones failing to negotiate, they want all $3.5 from what I saw on TV today.

4. I agree, Joe should switch parties, he has nothing in common with today's democrats.

5. Don't forget Kyrsten Sinema, she also refuses to support the $3.5T "social infrastructure" bill, her top line number is $0. This evening we will know if one or both infrastructure bills are dead.

 

[Richard-H]

In keeping with the thread title, do you believe that the democrats can spend an unlimited amount of money on every conceivable policy or program, without any consequences? And I'm asking any other progressive liberal to join in, and please provide your rationale. I know of no credible economist who will champion that idea; sure, you can say that increased demand will generate economic growth, but is there no law of diminishing returns where at some point the amount of money in the system dwarfs the supply of goods and services? I.E., inflation destroys everything? Or do you propose an ever increasing tax and spend policy, borrowing more money into infinity? Do you believe that there will always be somebody somewhere who will finance our debt?

And here is maybe the biggest question: are you prepared to accept the consequences if you are wrong? My answer: I don't think so. Do you realize that the decisions that are made today will have an impact in the future? Is there any limit to the amount of debt you are willing to pass onto the next generations?

It's funny that when you conservatives want to spend trillions of dollars that benefits billionaires, you have no problem with the federal debt, but when liberals want to spend money you pitch a fit.

Did you care about the federal debt when Trump cut taxes for the wealthy? No. Do you care about the $600B per year that we spend on the military? No. The fact that these increase the debt doesn't matter a bit to you.

It's only when government spending is beneficial to the majority of Americans that you want it stopped.

The fact is, the government debt is now $27T. Increasing it by $3.5T over the next 10 years won't matter. It will benefit the economy and the American people as a whole.

The reality is that ALL money is created either by the government or the banks, and all money trickles up to the wealthiest 0.1%. If you cared about the federal debt, you'd support taxing the daylights out of the wealthiest 0.1% so that the government would get back some of the money it created and be able to balance its books.

 

[basquebromance]

Manchin proposed a deal to Schumer to limit the total cost of Democrats' sweeping spending bill to $1.5 trillion

https://static.politico.com/1e/ef/159cabd547868585f9b1a8f06388/july-28-2021.pdf

from politico:

"I wasn't trying to be a fly in the ointment at all. I've never been. I've never been a liberal in any way shape or form," Manchin said. "For them to get theirs, I guess elect more liberals. I'm not asking them to change. I'm willing to come from zero to $1.5" trillion.



/thread

 

[elektra]

What Manchin forgot to mention is that in contrast to his opening statement:

The GOP continues to refuse to vote for "what is best for the country and the American people". They are 100% voting in line with their party - a party that is undermining democracy.

We are a Republic, we must undermine the efforts to change us into a Democracy.

 

[elektra]

It's funny that when you conservatives want to spend trillions of dollars that benefits billionaires, you have no problem with the federal debt, but when liberals want to spend money you pitch a fit.

Did you care about the federal debt when Trump cut taxes for the wealthy? No. Do you care about the $600B per year that we spend on the military? No. The fact that these increase the debt doesn't matter a bit to you.

It's only when government spending is beneficial to the majority of Americans that you want it stopped.

The fact is, the government debt is now $27T. Increasing it by $3.5T over the next 10 years won't matter. It will benefit the economy and the American people as a whole.

The reality is that ALL money is created either by the government or the banks, and all money trickles up to the wealthiest 0.1%. If you cared about the federal debt, you'd support taxing the daylights out of the wealthiest 0.1% so that the government would get back some of the money it created and be able to balance its books.

This is an example of the American Marxist ideals.

No private property, which is what is stated when people say all money is created from the government.
Class warfare, we must hate the rich, the 1%, and blame them for our problems.
Government debt is only good, it can not be bad.

American Marxist Democrat is gooood, Republican is baaaad.

 

[Richard-H]

1. I saw Manchin's $1.5b answer live on TV at a mini-presser. I'm sure his $1.5b top line number will make the news this evening.
That's trimming $2T off the $3.5T bill.

Sen. Joe Manchin gives $1.5T topline number for reconciliation bill – IOI Newz

ioinewz.com

2. Looking out for seniors is Manchin's "mission", I appreciate his holding out to fix Medicare and SS.

3. The progs are the ones failing to negotiate, they want all $3.5 from what I saw on TV today.

4. I agree, Joe should switch parties, he has nothing in common with today's democrats.

5. Don't forget Kyrsten Sinema, she also refuses to support the $3.5T "social infrastructure" bill, her top line number is $0. This evening we will know if one or both infrastructure bills are dead.

1. If Manchin made this proposal I hope that they take it seriously and negotiate. Apparently this just happened this morning.

2. Fixing Medicare & SS is a great idea, but if Manchin truly support seniors, he'll support the part of the social infrastructure bill that allows medicare to negotiate bulk drug prices.

3. Yes, the progs are being stubborn, but there's no reason to believe that any part of the social infrastructure bill will be passed if they let the bipartisan bill pass. They have good reason not to trust the moderates or the GOP.

4. If no social infrastructure bill is passed, Manchin will at best be totally marginalized after the 2022 election. Given the number of toss up seats in the Senate, the dems are likely to pickup at least 2 seats - especially if there's no social infrastructure bill passed. He may as well join the GOP.

5. Sinema is showboating to make a national name for herself. She'll succeed in that, but she won't be happy with the type of national name she gets. She may as well move to Afghanistan.