how would you feel if a creationist taught your kids science?

[edthecynic]

It should be obvious!

Creationism says that no thing (God) created everything from nothing.
The FLoT says that from nothing, nothing comes.

FLoT applies within a given system: this univese


God, like Branes, exists outside of the system in question


There is no evidence FLoT can be extrapolated to apply outside of this universe, to whatever medium it might itself exist within

Science recognizes this when discussing M-theory and bubble universes

Neither M-Theory, nor String Theory, nor Brane Theory says that you can get something from nothing. The FLoT still stands and Creationism still violates it.

Originally Posted by JBeukema Nope. According to M-Theory, the Universe comes into being when two branes collide. FLoT applies within the universe, but we cannot know the rules that govern the realm of the branes.

According to the God Hypothesis, the Universe was created in whatever medium (perhaps it's a bubble universe? Or perhaps the Strings are the very 'body' of FSM?) by an outside intelligence. Nowhere does it say something came from nothing and nowhere does it violate the laws of physics that apply within the created universe, both because we cannot logically assume that they apply in other universes or outside of the universe at all and because It's never stated explicitly how the universe comes into being following god's speech. For all we know, he spoke to an AI in a laboratory and it automated the processes which manipulated the string ultimately leading to the emergent changes we see in the universe before us.

God creating a cow next to me wouldn't even violate FLoT, as the intervention of an outside agent and introduction of matter/energy (or 'information', if you prefer the term) from outside the universe means the universe isn't a closed system- and FLoT only applies to a closed system.

I never claimed it did.

If god's intervening and introducing new energy/matter, then the universe is not a closed system and SLoT doesn't apply at all.

You were clearly implying that M-Theory was free to violate the FLoT, which obviously you have confused with the SLoT.

Fail. I made it clear that it did not- nor [certain forms of] creationism.


Try reading for comprehension.

Cut the arrogant condescension!

I have the comprehension to know the difference between the FLoT and the SLoT, which YOU obviously lack, and the comprehension to see from your earlier posts you have put the "closed system" limitation of the SLoT on the FLoT where it doesn't exist from your earlier posts!!! It was such a stupid thing to say I could not forget that you said it, like you did. You obviously didn't realize that it was so stupid that it would stick out like a sore thumb and therefore be easy to remember. You probably thought you were BRILLIANT!

Again, the FLoT is not limited to a closed system, and you have no idea what you are babbling about.

 

[JBeukema]

Atheism is first and foremost the most virulent of all religions, because it requires the most faith of all.

that was a good one

 

[JBeukema]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

there is no room for myths in science instruction

Prove its a myth or shut the fuck up!

S: (n) myth (a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people)

WordNet Search - 3.0


By definition

 

[JBeukema]

you have put the "closed system" limitation of the SLoT on the FLoT where it doesn't exist from your earlier posts

It's implicit in the entire line you've been arguing. Again, comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

You've still yet to demonstrate your premise while you attack me.

 

[Mr. Sauerkraut]

You judge others by how you judge yourself.

Tell that to the 165 kids who go home with knapsacks full of food from the school for the weekend so they can eat.

Tell that to the 43 homes of the elderly that we visit as many times as necessary each week to make sure the folks are cared for and know that they are cared for.

Tell that to our boys scouts, girl scouts, the orphanage in Siberia where 13 to 19 members spend each summer doing their best to assist with education and medical care and friendship, to the Christmas choirs that visit the elderly and the shut in and ill ~ tell that to thousands in my home town.

Tell that to me when they came to help (many of them not knowing me) when my wife died, when my oldest daughter died, and when I became so ill several years ago.

Tell that to them and they will say, "You poor soul, how can we help?"

so good works do justify any doctrine? That´s how the nazis did it yesterday and the muslimic terrorists do it today. What do you think do the suicide bombers come from?

No. Any doctrine which forbids me to use my brain is bad and unworthy. Any "good works" that are done by the agents of this doctrine is a lie and only done to increase power over my mind.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You judge others as you judge yourself.

False statement. No one is compelling you to not use your brain,

You have no defensible position.

 

[Old Rocks]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

You damned well better keep it seperate. A biology teacher that teaches creationism is teaching one particular religions mythology, not science. For doing that, the teacher should not be allowed to teach science, period.

 

[Old Rocks]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

there is no room for myths in science instruction

Prove its a myth or shut the fuck up!

No worldwide flood. Period.

Jericho was a stone ruin at the time the Isrealites left Egypt.

Talking snakes, ect.

 

[konradv]

I wouldn't want a creationist teaching my kids. I expect a certain amount of logical thinking from teachers and creationists fail that test, IMO. Anyone that can look at fossil record and maintain that species did not evolve, I don't want anywhere near teaching kids.

I am a Creationist who believes species evolved and have no problem with the Theory of Evolution and in fact have taught it with some degree of competence I believe,.

I think probably 95% of Creationists pretty much see it as I see it. And that would include most likely all my science teachers from grade school through college.

None of us should teach?

If you don't have a problem with the Theory of Evolution, then you're the kind of "creationist" I am. The Bible says "let there be light"(The Big Bang) and everything after that in Genesis is allegory, because the universe EVOLVED from created laws of science NOT created as individuals or species.

 

[AllieBaba]

You judge others by how you judge yourself.

Tell that to the 165 kids who go home with knapsacks full of food from the school for the weekend so they can eat.

Tell that to the 43 homes of the elderly that we visit as many times as necessary each week to make sure the folks are cared for and know that they are cared for.

Tell that to our boys scouts, girl scouts, the orphanage in Siberia where 13 to 19 members spend each summer doing their best to assist with education and medical care and friendship, to the Christmas choirs that visit the elderly and the shut in and ill ~ tell that to thousands in my home town.

Tell that to me when they came to help (many of them not knowing me) when my wife died, when my oldest daughter died, and when I became so ill several years ago.

Tell that to them and they will say, "You poor soul, how can we help?"

so good works do justify any doctrine? That´s how the nazis did it yesterday and the muslimic terrorists do it today. What do you think do the suicide bombers come from?

No. Any doctrine which forbids me to use my brain is bad and unworthy. Any "good works" that are done by the agents of this doctrine is a lie and only done to increase power over my mind.

Christian doctrine doesn't forbid you to use your brain, you lunatic. In fact, if you were to seriously read and research the bible, you'd be using your brain to a greater extent that I've ever seen evidence you're capable of.

And comparing Christianity to Nazism & Islam... The myth that the numbers of people systematically killed in tne name of the Christian God in any way compares to the numbers killed in the name of Islam or Nazism is ludicrous. It's a myth perpetrated by those who want to see Christians eliminated, killed, silenced, and it's completely false.

 

[AllieBaba]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

You damned well better keep it seperate. A biology teacher that teaches creationism is teaching one particular religions mythology, not science. For doing that, the teacher should not be allowed to teach science, period.

Perhaps a Christian needs to teach you to spell. "Separate".

There is nothing wrong with sharing one's personal beliefs in the classroom. Teachers of all subjects talk about social issues all the time, and the issue of faith is just an extension of that. You won't ever see me saying they should teach creationism in PLACE of whatever subject is being taught (except in parochial schools, where the curriculum wraps around the bible and prayer) because kids are in particular classrooms to learn about particular subjects.

But IF children are being taught about the "theory" that we have evolved from a "common ancestor" that we share with other primates...a theory that has no basis in fact and is a complete guess based on the fact that we are all similar and share basic gene structure, then I see no thing wrong with touching on the theory, believed by a HUGE number of people in the world, that we were created by a creator. There should be no requirement that children believe this, any more than there's a requirement that they believe we're the grandchildren of Lucy; but they should know the theory exists, and not be taught the lie that it's myth, that it doesn't bear consideration, or that the people who believe it it are stuipd. It's about increasing knowledge, instead of limiting it, and it makes me ill people, claim that teaching children all the possilities somehow makes them more ignorant than withholding information. You don't enlighten children by refusing to give them information, or by passing on your personal opinion about things...in place of truth.

 

[JScott]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

You damned well better keep it seperate. A biology teacher that teaches creationism is teaching one particular religions mythology, not science. For doing that, the teacher should not be allowed to teach science, period.

Perhaps a Christian needs to teach you to spell. "Separate".

There is nothing wrong with sharing one's personal beliefs in the classroom. Teachers of all subjects talk about social issues all the time, and the issue of faith is just an extension of that. You won't ever see me saying they should teach creationism in PLACE of whatever subject is being taught (except in parochial schools, where the curriculum wraps around the bible and prayer) because kids are in particular classrooms to learn about particular subjects.

But IF children are being taught about the "theory" that we have evolved from a "common ancestor" that we share with other primates...a theory that has no basis in fact and is a complete guess based on the fact that we are all similar and share basic gene structure, then I see no thing wrong with touching on the theory, believed by a HUGE number of people in the world, that we were created by a creator. There should be no requirement that children believe this, any more than there's a requirement that they believe we're the grandchildren of Lucy; but they should know the theory exists, and not be taught the lie that it's myth, that it doesn't bear consideration, or that the people who believe it it are stuipd. It's about increasing knowledge, instead of limiting it, and it makes me ill people, claim that teaching children all the possilities somehow makes them more ignorant than withholding information. You don't enlighten children by refusing to give them information, or by passing on your personal opinion about things...in place of truth.

Here are some examples of possible evolution:

What can you show me of creation?

 

[edthecynic]

you have put the "closed system" limitation of the SLoT on the FLoT where it doesn't exist from your earlier posts

It's implicit in the entire line you've been arguing. Again, comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

You've still yet to demonstrate your premise while you attack me.

Your imagined "closed system" limitation of the FLoT is not "implicit." If there was such a limitation science would have no trouble stating it right up front in the FLoT like they do with the SLoT. Your JBFLoT would be stated as, "In a closed thermodynamic systen, energy can neither be created nor destroyed," just as the SLoT states, "In a closed thermodynamic system, Entropy never decreases." But you will NEVER find the FLoT stated as such in any physics text book because there is no such limitation on the FLoT.

You just can't admit the obvious, you confused the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics and built your faulty arguments on your confusion. And rather than admit your error you have reduced yourself to arrogant condescension.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We don't have to keep it separate, and there's no reason to.

You damned well better keep it seperate. A biology teacher that teaches creationism is teaching one particular religions mythology, not science. For doing that, the teacher should not be allowed to teach science, period.

Perhaps a Christian needs to teach you to spell. "Separate".

There is nothing wrong with sharing one's personal beliefs in the classroom. Teachers of all subjects talk about social issues all the time, and the issue of faith is just an extension of that. You won't ever see me saying they should teach creationism in PLACE of whatever subject is being taught (except in parochial schools, where the curriculum wraps around the bible and prayer) because kids are in particular classrooms to learn about particular subjects.

But IF children are being taught about the "theory" that we have evolved from a "common ancestor" that we share with other primates...a theory that has no basis in fact and is a complete guess based on the fact that we are all similar and share basic gene structure, then I see no thing wrong with touching on the theory, believed by a HUGE number of people in the world, that we were created by a creator. There should be no requirement that children believe this, any more than there's a requirement that they believe we're the grandchildren of Lucy; but they should know the theory exists, and not be taught the lie that it's myth, that it doesn't bear consideration, or that the people who believe it it are stuipd. It's about increasing knowledge, instead of limiting it, and it makes me ill people, claim that teaching children all the possilities somehow makes them more ignorant than withholding information. You don't enlighten children by refusing to give them information, or by passing on your personal opinion about things...in place of truth.

Stop the either or dichotomy, for it does not exist.

The biology classroom is for teaching biology, not sharing religious opinion. ID and creationism can be taught in comparative religions or creation mythology classes..

 

[AllieBaba]

You damned well better keep it seperate. A biology teacher that teaches creationism is teaching one particular religions mythology, not science. For doing that, the teacher should not be allowed to teach science, period.

Perhaps a Christian needs to teach you to spell. "Separate".

There is nothing wrong with sharing one's personal beliefs in the classroom. Teachers of all subjects talk about social issues all the time, and the issue of faith is just an extension of that. You won't ever see me saying they should teach creationism in PLACE of whatever subject is being taught (except in parochial schools, where the curriculum wraps around the bible and prayer) because kids are in particular classrooms to learn about particular subjects.

But IF children are being taught about the "theory" that we have evolved from a "common ancestor" that we share with other primates...a theory that has no basis in fact and is a complete guess based on the fact that we are all similar and share basic gene structure, then I see no thing wrong with touching on the theory, believed by a HUGE number of people in the world, that we were created by a creator. There should be no requirement that children believe this, any more than there's a requirement that they believe we're the grandchildren of Lucy; but they should know the theory exists, and not be taught the lie that it's myth, that it doesn't bear consideration, or that the people who believe it it are stuipd. It's about increasing knowledge, instead of limiting it, and it makes me ill people, claim that teaching children all the possilities somehow makes them more ignorant than withholding information. You don't enlighten children by refusing to give them information, or by passing on your personal opinion about things...in place of truth.

Here are some examples of possible evolution:

What can you show me of creation?

Those are pictures of "POSSIBLE" evolution.

I can also provide pictures of "POSSIBLE" creation...

Here's a picture of the "POSSIBLE" creation of man:

and here's a picture of a pyramid crystal which "POSSIBLY" has healing ability:

In other words, a bunch of pictures mean nothing in this instance. They have feature length films filled with fantastical animation of what the earth could POSSIBLY look like in thousands of year, too. Means nothing. It's just somebody's imagination run amock. Fun to look at, fun to condsider; but indicative of nothing real.

 

[JBeukema]

there is no room for myths in science instruction

Prove its a myth or shut the fuck up!

No worldwide flood. Period.

Jericho was a stone ruin at the time the Isrealites left Egypt.

Talking snakes, ect.

A talking snake.

And if a jalapeno can talk...

 

[JBeukema]

The myth that the numbers of people systematically killed in tne name of the Christian God in any way compares to the numbers killed in the name of Islam or Nazism is ludicrous.

Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Salem witch trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And let's not get started on the Jews

 

[AllieBaba]

Prove its a myth or shut the fuck up!

No worldwide flood. Period.

Jericho was a stone ruin at the time the Isrealites left Egypt.

Talking snakes, ect.

A talking snake.

And if a jalapeno can talk...

That's not proof, that's just a couple of ppl making fun of another person's theory, without adding anything to the convo.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

"13 percent of biology teachers back creationism"

13 percent of biology teachers back creationism - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience - msnbc.com

Personally, if it was shown that they refused to teach actual science in the classroom I would work to have them removed and their teaching license revoked. If they separated their beliefs and their teaching then its all good.

I would feel the same as if an evolutionist was teaching them science.

As long as the teacher is being proper and not trying to push their own personal agenda on the student it doesn't matter which type is the teacher.

 

[JBeukema]

There is nothing wrong with sharing one's personal beliefs in the classroom

Anyone wanna bet her tune changes the first time a Muslim teacher quotes the Suras?

But IF children are being taught about the "theory" that we have evolved from a "common ancestor" that we share with other primates...a theory that has no basis in fact