I am not understanding why single payer would be bad

the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?


Well to be honest, what you want is not realistically sustainable. Although it may last for a very brief period, what will result is a catastrophe of cataclysimic proportions.

1. Everyone does. There are far better ways to do this though. The question is HOW MUCH? It's an odd thing that everyone in this world, save the healthcare workers themselves seem to believe that their care SHOULD be free to them because of their need. This just isn't so. Healthcare costs, and costs dearly now. Of course these costs are exacerbated now by mandates for treatment, bureaucratic and governmental hurdles, exacerbated and harried employers, litigious insurance companies, greedy middlemen and lobbyists, and cancerous monopolies on both sides of the treatment issue.

So yes, the ideal method is that the doctor provides you with a service you require, and you pay him directly, cash. That's the ideal. If you can't pay him outright, get a payment plan. But so many people have inserted themselves into this equation, removing them will require a team of horses, two whips (one for the interlopers the other for the horses), and a six foot prybar.

But we must expunge the notion that it should be 'free'. There IS no free here.

2. Actually that is a falacy. The name of the game is convenience, economy and expediency with a healthy dose of simplicity. None of which will be achieved but all will be striven for. The government has such a poor record of paying doctors their owed fees, many and soon most doctors and hospitals will be opting to shut down and move overseas, where they can be paid fairly or just retire. We are going to see a rapid rise in the doctor shortage.

But why would they opt out? Not only is it the lack of pay, it's the increase of work. More bureaucracy, more red tape, more politics, more people looking over your shoulder. Why? Because it's the government's (HAH! that's a falacy unto itself too) money and they seem to believe that gives them license to control your entire life.

And as we know, as variety shrinks, so does competition, and therefore costs rise. But what about a single party payer? If it were that the government was stuck to living within their means instead of taxing for more, this may matter. But since they don't have to live in a budget, who cares about rising costs. They don't truly pay for it, the patient does out of their taxes. So prices inexorably skyrocket because there is no impetus to control them. Fundamental fact of reality, government NEVER controls costs well if at all.

3. Actually, studies funded by corporations and insurance companies have proven that preventive care do nothing to slow down the average health care costs. But they do make the insurance companies a healthy chunk of coin of the industries. Many corporations are now dropping preventive health care coverage for their employees as an expensive 'luxury' with little to no benefit. This was cited on the Jason Lewis Show about 2 weeks ago. You can find his podcasts on www.ktlkfm.com. I'm sure you'll find it if you go back and start listening.

4. No. They won't drop you, they'll ration you to death. Here's another economic fact. When a service is "free", it is abused and overused. If you have a service that is being charged for, people will use it less because, unlike the government, they can't make someone else pay for it against their will. There is a cost. So instead of going to the doctor for every little sniffle or twinge, they weigh the cost of spending 100 bucks to go to the doctor, or try to 'tough it out'. If it's serious or incapacitating them, you bet they'll go.

Now, make it 'free'. People will flood the doctor's offices, demanding Bently care for Festiva emergencies. I had a sniffle and want anti-virals and a CAT scan? Sure why not? We'll throw in a blood panel too and a barium enema to be safe. Usage goes berzerk and capacity is still limited.

So instead of getting to a waiting room where half the chairs are empty, it becomes standing room only. The government seeing the bills flying in for services rendered at 200, 300, 400% of what it was when people were charged will have to do something to manage costs because even they know you can't increase taxation 100% or more on people. They'll revolt. SO, in with the death panels deciding what is 'appropriate'. Who deserves what? Who is too old, young, sick, lazy, stupid, white, smelly, argyle to get treatment. When does grandma become a burden when we need beds to get that 40 year old back to work ASAP because he has to pay taxes.

It becomes economic triage that makes an meatgrinder out of the healthcare system with petty little accountants and bureaucrats having the final say on your healthcare, not you or your doctor. After all...

they're paying or it.

5. They have insurance like that already in the private sector. Why would you want to screw it up with a bureaucracy who hasn't won the war on drugs, poverty, terror, or anything else they've created a program for? These people are collectively incompetent in every task we've set them to compared to a private sector alternative.

Please realize, what you want can't be had. It is economically unfeasible. It creates a use/overload spiral that overwhelms even the most robust system. Capitalism works because it naturally sets the price based on scarcity, necessity and complexity. Simple treatments, rarely used and easy to make are cheap and plentiful. Treating Alzheimers is both complex, new and needed desperately by more and more people. This makes treatment very expensive. This is capitalism regulating the market.

It cares not about the ethics, or morality of rich and poor or what people feel is 'right'. The poor saints die the rich sinners live. It is the best system in an imperfect and finite world for distributing resources. If morality and goodness could be used to produce, they'd be used to pay for medicine too. It's just this is the sick sad world we live in, and warts and all, lightly regulated capitalism, equally enforced, is the most ethical and effective manner in which to distribute the goods and services we need.

Sucks to be us, but never the less... fantasies of a better world do not feed or heal the masses. Pragmatic capitalism with light ethical regulations as it's guide not only is the most 'fair' (God I hate that word but it fits) it is the most successful in helping it's people, who desire to, thrive.
 
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the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?

Stupid people believe it's "Socialism", that is the only argument against your suggestion.
No. Economics will be the death of socialized everything. All British colonies in America that started out with socialism nearly died out their first year because they could not grow enough food to last the winter. If it weren't for the Indians (stupidly) bailing them out, they would have all died out by the second and third winter. Some did.

All those that changed over to a capitalist system (See Jamestown for one excellent example) went from megafail bust to a boom in one year.

Why do you need more proof? The only reason we've lasted THIS long is that we haven't gone whole hog into socialism like they did 400 years ago and we have a lot more reserves to burn through. But we're almost there.

Socialism will be removed from the body politic like a malignant tumor as economies fall. But they never seem to get all the cells and a relapse always seems to occur 2-3 generations hence. At least I'll be alive to see this tumor burned out of the world by the chemo of global economic collapse. Starvation is a great sterilizer of political frivolity.
 
This is a side note, but Newfoundland and Labrador isn't in Europe.

I was asking for a link to any source that proves that this is a widespread fact, not a single instance.

In fact, a link to any metric that ranks the US higher than Canada or Europe, in terms of Healthcare.

Canada has a European style single payer system, at least it did the last time I looked. Did they junk it for something else?

If you want some sort of measurable metric that shows US health care is as good as, or better than, Europe's, try this.

Political Calculations: Surviving Cancer: US vs Europe

It seems that the US beats every other country in cancer survival, despite the fact that we have a deplorable system that allows insurers to arbitrarily drop anyone that gets a serious illness, and they are guaranteed coverage no matter what.

Maybe, just maybe, we don't do such a bad job after all.
 
Where is the Constitutional authority to require me to BUY INSURANCE?

congress has the right to tax you, zander, if you haven't read the constitution. where are you required to buy anything?
It was not sold as a tax. In fact Obama mentioned at least 10,000 times that it wasn't a tax. Here is a video where Obama defends that this is NOT A TAX...maybe it will help refresh your selective memory...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_-qh9XDbgE"]YouTube - OBAMA MANDITORY TAX ON HEALTH CARE IS NOT A TAX[/ame]
It's not a tax. Obama said so. Are you calling him a fucking liar?

I am pretty sure he called himself a liar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/health/policy/18health.html
 
so besides the fact that governments' can't seem to manage it correctly, it is in theory a good idea?

No.

Just because everyone in a single-payer system has health insurance, that doesn't mean they have health care. The left never seems able to tell the difference between the two.

Anytime people believe someone else is paying for something, they tend to overuse it. This will inevitably require the government to ration health care in order to control costs. This is no joke, nor is it an "exaggeration", as the left likes to claim. Study after study conducted by medical journals in various countries have shown that single-payer systems lead to greater suffering and sometimes even death for people forced to wait for the health care they need.

What this also means is that, while they might not "drop" you for pre-existing conditions, it's likely that you also won't get the care you need for many of them.

"Preventive care" sounds good, but when such doctor visits are rationed, are people really getting the preventive care you're thinking of?

And finally, while it sounds very lofty and high-minded to say, "I'd rather help people in need", ARE you really helping them at all, or are you just making everyone ELSE miserable in service of your own warm fuzzies?
 

The US ranks behind all those European countries in terms of life span, infant mortality, and nearly every other statistic as well.

A leftist talking point which has been addressed and debunked so many times that your trotting it out yet again can only be attributed to either extreme disingenuousness and partisan hackery, or severe brain damage.

Your call.
 
so besides the fact that governments' can't seem to manage it correctly, it is in theory a good idea?
i think that our hospitals and HMO system is superior to the government-run models, even if the governments can manage their objectives just fine.

i think that service for profit is preferrable to service for austerity, and its been my experience in holland and the UK that this key difference comes through in the level of care and service received in european hospitals. there's no need to get so exotic, however. you can get a taste at a county vs. private hospital right here in the states.

for the US, i dont see why we would want to do away with what we have in exchange for a single-payer system. with the latest legislation, i think the public/private approach looks even more promising than before.

A single payer system does not involve the Government running hospitals. Hospitals would still be privately controlled.

Bullshit. Control always belongs to the fist clutching the cash. And the government never gives anyone money without smothering them in red tape and regulations.
 
Umm on the post office. Do you think a private company could fullfill all the USPS's duties cheaper than the USPS does?

Drive by every mailbox in the USA 6 days a week? Deliver a letter as cheaply as they do? Be as reliable as they are?
 
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Umm on the post office. Do you think a private company could fullfill all the USPS's duties cheaper than the USPS does?

Drive by every mailbox in the USA 6 days a week? Deliver a letter as cheaply as they do? Be as reliable as they are?

No, a private company could not go billions into debt like they have.
 
any twit could answer. what constitutes a requirement or force in the law?

You are acting like a twit yourself!

Here is what happens if you refuse to purchase health insurance before ObamaCare - Nothing. You cannot be forced to purchase insurance or pay a fine for refusing.

What will happen under Obamacare if you refuse to purchase health insurance? Well, starting in 2014- our friendly tax collectors - Those nice folks at the IRS - will have another task: making sure all Americans have health insurance. Under the law, Americans who can afford health insurance but refuse to buy it will face a fine of up to $695 or 2.5% of their income, whichever is higher.

Twit indeed.

there we go zander, so silly video arguments about shit not being sold as a tax don't carry water in this matter. it is a tax. absurd arguments that there is constitutional issues with the law dont hold any water either. it is a tax.

with the constitution-based nonsense of yours put to rest, there's the politically inept fantasy about a repeal. why even debate the point, we're a month or so from your new order we could just wait and see. i'm willing to place my bet that there wont be much political momentum behind that agenda, nor the political power to affect it, particularly over a veto.
 
Umm on the post office. Do you think a private company could fullfill all the USPS's duties cheaper than the USPS does?

Drive by every mailbox in the USA 6 days a week? Deliver a letter as cheaply as they do? Be as reliable as they are?

No, a private company could not go billions into debt like they have.

the USPS is part of our national infrastructure. the government would go that much further into debt were we to privatize the entire thing and expect the same service at the same price while supporting private profits. i think our public/private mail and package delivery system is better than an all private system. an all public system will be impossible.

this is the same way i see healthcare.
 
the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?

Stupid people believe it's "Socialism", that is the only argument against your suggestion.
No. Economics will be the death of socialized everything. All British colonies in America that started out with socialism nearly died out their first year because they could not grow enough food to last the winter. If it weren't for the Indians (stupidly) bailing them out, they would have all died out by the second and third winter. Some did.

All those that changed over to a capitalist system (See Jamestown for one excellent example) went from megafail bust to a boom in one year.

Why do you need more proof? The only reason we've lasted THIS long is that we haven't gone whole hog into socialism like they did 400 years ago and we have a lot more reserves to burn through. But we're almost there.

Socialism will be removed from the body politic like a malignant tumor as economies fall. But they never seem to get all the cells and a relapse always seems to occur 2-3 generations hence. At least I'll be alive to see this tumor burned out of the world by the chemo of global economic collapse. Starvation is a great sterilizer of political frivolity.

sue your history teacher, fitz. british colonial socialists 400 years ago? :eusa_snooty:
 
the way I see it:

1) I want healthcare and pay for it already

2) Their be more "choice" in which doctors you can see since virtually all of them would enroll in the single payer system

3) Giving everyone preventive care early will save us millions in not having to treat them for cancer and other expensive illnesses

4) the single payer system wouldn't drop you for "pre-existing conditions" or any other nonsense they make up at the time like private insurers can

5) I would rather pay into a pool that helps other people in need rather than further enrich immoral millionaires that run the current insurance companies

what about any of these are bad and what would be so bad about single payer?

Stupid people believe it's "Socialism", that is the only argument against your suggestion.

and people with an argument actually make one....instead of throwing out snide comments that don't help your case, but make you appear challenged.
 
If you eliminate competition and allow the government a monopoly you're inevitably inviting fraud, waste, and abuse. You're also likely to see, as in the UK's NHS, a larger amount of bureaucrats than actual doctors and nurses. Also, once you create this monstrosity it will be nearly impossible to get rid of or even attempt to reform in any way shape or form. Look at Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. If you even mention that those three programs are in need of some amount of reform the propagandists begin to attack.

Fraud, waste, and abuse are common in private sector insurance too.

But they call them slightly more benign names. They're called claim denials, executive salaries, and dividends.
 
ObamaCare is going to be repealed or overturned. It is not the governments job to take care of your health- it is yours. You are responsible for your own life. It is time for Big Government Democrats to put your pants on and grow the fuck up

Don't seek refuge in delusions. Obamacare is not going to be overturned. It only goes further left from here. Jingoism and Sloganeering can triumph over common sense for only so long.
 
Anytime people believe someone else is paying for something, they tend to overuse it. This will inevitably require the government to ration health care in order to control costs. This is no joke, nor is it an "exaggeration", as the left likes to claim. Study after study conducted by medical journals in various countries have shown that single-payer systems lead to greater suffering and sometimes even death for people forced to wait for the health care they need.

We've been running an experiment in the United States for 45 years in which citizens in one particular demographic are eligible for benefits under a single-payer system. Despite the fact that this demographic is much more susceptible to chronic conditions and generally in poorer health than the general population, the result has not been greater suffering.

davis_01_584.gif
 
Umm on the post office. Do you think a private company could fullfill all the USPS's duties cheaper than the USPS does?

Drive by every mailbox in the USA 6 days a week? Deliver a letter as cheaply as they do? Be as reliable as they are?

No, a private company could not go billions into debt like they have.

The evil post office argument always gives me a chuckle.

The post office can't "Go into debt" in the sense of the term that applies to for-profit corporations. It's a government instrument; Just happens to be one that's partially subsidized by user contributions. Yes, the "losses" are paid by taxpayers out of the general fund.

But the efficiency is astounding. No private company could come close in terms of price or speed of delivery. Sure, we could privatize the whole thing and see postage rates skyrocket, but who would that benefit? Nobody. Yes, fewer of your tax dollars go to the operation of the system, but you'd pay higher postage rates that would far outweigh the benign amount of your tax dollar that goes to the USPS. Even if you're someone who never mails or receives anything, all the companies whose goods you consume do use the mail. Who do you think is going to pay for those higher rates??
 
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Stupid people believe it's "Socialism", that is the only argument against your suggestion.
No. Economics will be the death of socialized everything. All British colonies in America that started out with socialism nearly died out their first year because they could not grow enough food to last the winter. If it weren't for the Indians (stupidly) bailing them out, they would have all died out by the second and third winter. Some did.

All those that changed over to a capitalist system (See Jamestown for one excellent example) went from megafail bust to a boom in one year.

Why do you need more proof? The only reason we've lasted THIS long is that we haven't gone whole hog into socialism like they did 400 years ago and we have a lot more reserves to burn through. But we're almost there.

Socialism will be removed from the body politic like a malignant tumor as economies fall. But they never seem to get all the cells and a relapse always seems to occur 2-3 generations hence. At least I'll be alive to see this tumor burned out of the world by the chemo of global economic collapse. Starvation is a great sterilizer of political frivolity.

sue your history teacher, fitz. british colonial socialists 400 years ago? :eusa_snooty:
a91a6fd4-1af0-496e-aa5a-30be3d4a4010.jpg


My bad.

The Jamestown Settlement Colony was the first successful English settlement on the mainland of North America.[1] Named for King James I of England, Jamestown was founded in the Colony of Virginia on May 14, 1607
That would be Four Hundred and THREE years ago.

I figured you wouldn't quibble over being off by three years.

This nation just didn't spring into existance in 1760, you know. Or when the Puritains landed on Plymouth Rock (or there abouts).

As for the functionality of modern socialism, it is nearly indistinguishable from full blown feudalism. Nobles at the top, Serfs at the bottom doing all the work. Much like the prolitariat supporting the 'party' except without that messy God thing and even messier lines of succession.

So... who should be suing who's history teacher?
 
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Anytime people believe someone else is paying for something, they tend to overuse it. This will inevitably require the government to ration health care in order to control costs. This is no joke, nor is it an "exaggeration", as the left likes to claim. Study after study conducted by medical journals in various countries have shown that single-payer systems lead to greater suffering and sometimes even death for people forced to wait for the health care they need.

We've been running an experiment in the United States for 45 years in which citizens in one particular demographic are eligible for benefits under a single-payer system. Despite the fact that this demographic is much more susceptible to chronic conditions and generally in poorer health than the general population, the result has not been greater suffering.

davis_01_584.gif

This would be because it's not the entire nation of 300 million-plus people in the system. Try a comparison that's a little more apropos.
 

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