I have been Called to the Principal's Office

[xotoxi]

In the social studies, with which I'm most familiar, by middle school one is trying to teach the underlying philosophy behind government. One is trying to teach comparative religions. One is trying to teach the differences between parliamentary systems vs authoritarian systems. In other words, a combination of compare and contrast, reasonable arguments of why one considers A superior to B, etc. is the norm. Rote isn't the most effective way to teach, nor are there absolutes.

Certainly vocabulary, dates, significant figures can be used in objective questions, but the core learning is not only subjective in nature, it's imperative to developing higher order thinking.

I agree with Annieh.

Not everything can be, or should be, graded on rote memorization and multiple choice. I think that a lot can be learned from students participating in discussion sessions with their classmates. That type of learning cannot be graded objectively, but rather subjectively...is the student showing signs that they are thinking.

Of course EVERYTHING cannot be learned ONE WAY.

Who said scantron's should be the only tool to evaluate learning?

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

 

[Samson]

In the social studies, with which I'm most familiar, by middle school one is trying to teach the underlying philosophy behind government. One is trying to teach comparative religions. One is trying to teach the differences between parliamentary systems vs authoritarian systems. In other words, a combination of compare and contrast, reasonable arguments of why one considers A superior to B, etc. is the norm. Rote isn't the most effective way to teach, nor are there absolutes.

Certainly vocabulary, dates, significant figures can be used in objective questions, but the core learning is not only subjective in nature, it's imperative to developing higher order thinking.

So, you're saying the SAT and the LSAT, and the GMAT, all of which are pre-graduate and post gradate admissions tests graded with scantrons do not contain higher order thinking questions?

do they? Or are they a combination of reading comprehension and rote facts within? So, you DO want just teaching to tests? I agree that would be easier for teachers and parents like yourself.

No, I never advocated anything remotely like "JUST teaching to tests."

However, if time simply doesn't permit the use of any other evaluative tool, why the hell not? Isn't it better than nothing?

It takes a few minutes to grade 150 quizzes, and you immediately know which questions are the ones most students missed. You don't see any value it that? During the next class you reteach those specific concepts that didn't get through on the first pass: What could possibly be wrong with this?

 

[Annie]

I agree with Annieh.

Not everything can be, or should be, graded on rote memorization and multiple choice. I think that a lot can be learned from students participating in discussion sessions with their classmates. That type of learning cannot be graded objectively, but rather subjectively...is the student showing signs that they are thinking.

Of course EVERYTHING cannot be learned ONE WAY.

Who said scantron's should be the only tool to evaluate learning?

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

and if the class is studying the influences of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, etc., then annotating the Declaration of Independence using Word or a Smartboard program, how is one to send that home, until the disc is complete? That may well take 3-5 weeks. During the interim, mini lessons are given, but not much for the parents to understand, and certainly not many points.

 

[xotoxi]

So, you're saying the SAT and the LSAT, and the GMAT, all of which are pre-graduate and post gradate admissions tests graded with scantrons do not contain higher order thinking questions?

do they? Or are they a combination of reading comprehension and rote facts within? So, you DO want just teaching to tests? I agree that would be easier for teachers and parents like yourself.

No, I never advocated anything remotely like "JUST teaching to tests."

However, if time simply doesn't permit the use of any other evaluative tool, why the hell not? Isn't it better than nothing?

It takes a few minutes to grade 150 quizzes, and you immediately know which questions are the ones most students missed. You don't see any value it that? During the next class you reteach those specific concepts that didn't get through on the first pass: What could possibly be wrong with this?

Wouldn't your child be pissed at you if the teacher graded everyone else in the class on participation, but made your child answer ten questions at the end of class just so there was something tangible to send home.

 

[Samson]

I agree with Annieh.

Not everything can be, or should be, graded on rote memorization and multiple choice. I think that a lot can be learned from students participating in discussion sessions with their classmates. That type of learning cannot be graded objectively, but rather subjectively...is the student showing signs that they are thinking.

Of course EVERYTHING cannot be learned ONE WAY.

Who said scantron's should be the only tool to evaluate learning?

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

"Discussing Literature" is not a measurable teaching objective, and if that's all the lesson plan contains, then don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

 

[Ravi]

Here's how I knew my kids were doing well in school:

They got good grades on their report cards.
They asked for help if they didn't understand something taught.
They could carry on an intelligent conversation.
They aced their standard achievement tests.

It seems to me Samson is not interested in how his child is doing at all, but rather he has a grudge against the school and the school's teachers.

 

[xotoxi]

...don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Like us?

 

[Samson]

Of course EVERYTHING cannot be learned ONE WAY.

Who said scantron's should be the only tool to evaluate learning?

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

and if the class is studying the influences of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, etc., then annotating the Declaration of Independence using Word or a Smartboard program, how is one to send that home, until the disc is complete? That may well take 3-5 weeks. During the interim, mini lessons are given, but not much for the parents to understand, and certainly not many points.

"During the interim, mini lessons are given, but not much for the parents to understand, and certainly not many points"

So what? EVALUATE your TEACHING.

You'd rather wait until you've taught 3-5 weeks to determine half the class didn't understand 50% of what you taught concerning the influences of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, etc.?

This helps explain rdean.

 

[Samson]

...don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Like us?

No, only the admins.

and rdean.

 

[xotoxi]

"Discussing Literature" is not a measurable teaching objective, and if that's all the lesson plan contains, then don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Kids that are in classes that are "discussing literature" generally are smart to begin with. They will not be a babbling idiots no matter what you do.

And I'm pretty sure that NO class has a lesson plan that contains ONLY "discussing the literature"...but maybe in a given week that is all that it contains. And during that week, there would be no tangible item for you to review.

Unless your child is made to write an essay detailing their participation for the week.

 

[Foxfyre]

Of course EVERYTHING cannot be learned ONE WAY.

Who said scantron's should be the only tool to evaluate learning?

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

"Discussing Literature" is not a measurable teaching objective, and if that's all the lesson plan contains, then don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Exactly. In Ninth Grade we read Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" in English class and we discussed it extensively. Then we were instructed to write a paper that must be at least eight to ten pages long outlining the universal truths in Julius Caesar and why those were universal truths. Students who didn't pay attention during the discussion probably didn't do well on that paper. And the rest of us were required to condense our thinking, actually identify and be able to explain the various components, and organize them into a coherant form.

The discussion was the 'teaching'. The composition was the evidence that the 'teaching' had been learned and understood. The teacher was there for students who got stuck or had questions during the week long process of writing that paper.

I don't know how any teacher determines that the kids are actually getting it without some form of testing mechanism. That was an exercise that I still remember to this day however. And it inspired me to want to be a writer/researcher.

 

[xotoxi]

...don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Like us?

No, only the admins.

and rdean.

I'm honored that you do not include me in the babbling idiot category.

How about babbling imbicile?

 

[xotoxi]

Exactly. In Ninth Grade we read Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" in English class and we discussed it extensively. Then we were instructed to write a paper that must be at least eight to ten pages long outlining the universal truths in Julius Caesar and why those were universal truths. Students who didn't pay attention during the discussion probably didn't do well on that paper. And the rest of us were required to condense our thinking, actually identify and be able to explain the various components, and organize them into a coherant form.

The discussion was the 'teaching'. The composition was the evidence that the 'teaching' had been learned and understood. The teacher was there for students who got stuck or had questions during the week long process of writing that paper.

I don't know how any teacher determines that the kids are actually getting it without some form of testing mechanism. That was an exercise that I still remember to this day however. And it inspired me to want to be a writer/resercher.

I understand that the composition was the "test" showing evidence of learning.

However, that was not done weekly, correct? Which is what Samson would like from his child's teachers...weekly graded items.

There are some classes that are structured not to produce weekly graded items...except perhaps for participation.

 

[Samson]

Like us?

No, only the admins.

and rdean.

I'm honored that you do not include me in the babbling idiot category.

How about babbling imbicile?

How about the having-too-much-rep-to-criticise category?



****We'll keep my comment about admins to ourselves****

 

[xotoxi]

How about the having-too-much-rep-to-criticise category?

Is that why everyone is so nice to me and never disagrees with me?

It's good to be King!

 

[Annie]

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

and if the class is studying the influences of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, etc., then annotating the Declaration of Independence using Word or a Smartboard program, how is one to send that home, until the disc is complete? That may well take 3-5 weeks. During the interim, mini lessons are given, but not much for the parents to understand, and certainly not many points.

"During the interim, mini lessons are given, but not much for the parents to understand, and certainly not many points"

So what? EVALUATE your TEACHING.

You'd rather wait until you've taught 3-5 weeks to determine half the class didn't understand 50% of what you taught concerning the influences of Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, etc.?

This helps explain rdean.

No sir, it often means questions as the class is about to leave, such as, "Considering what you know about the middle ages, why do you think that Hobbes thought government should be absolute?" A few days later, "Considering how close in time Locke was writing compared to Hobbes, what do you think accounts for the differences?"

How many here can answer that off the top of their heads? That's what I mean by would mean little to parents. BTW there are cogent answers for those, which would be addressed in class.

 

[Foxfyre]

Exactly. In Ninth Grade we read Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" in English class and we discussed it extensively. Then we were instructed to write a paper that must be at least eight to ten pages long outlining the universal truths in Julius Caesar and why those were universal truths. Students who didn't pay attention during the discussion probably didn't do well on that paper. And the rest of us were required to condense our thinking, actually identify and be able to explain the various components, and organize them into a coherant form.

The discussion was the 'teaching'. The composition was the evidence that the 'teaching' had been learned and understood. The teacher was there for students who got stuck or had questions during the week long process of writing that paper.

I don't know how any teacher determines that the kids are actually getting it without some form of testing mechanism. That was an exercise that I still remember to this day however. And it inspired me to want to be a writer/resercher.

I understand that the composition was the "test" showing evidence of learning.

However, that was not done weekly, correct? Which is what Samson would like from his child's teachers...weekly graded items.

There are some classes that are structured not to produce weekly graded items...except perhaps for participation.

I don't know. It has been a LONG time now, but I can't remember a week in highschool that we didn't have either a pop quiz on our homework or that week's lectures or a major scheduled test. The scheduled tests counted more toward our grades of course than did the pop quizzes, but the quizzes did count. And knowing they could come at any time kept most of us doing our homework reading assignments, handing in written homework assignments, and paying attention in class.

As somebody suggested, we often just switched papers with a classmate and graded each other's papers as the teacher gave us the answers and then turned in the papers for the grades to be recorded. That saved the teachers a lot of time but it did keep some kind of accountability in place as to what we were absorbing and remembering.

 

[xotoxi]

No sir, it often means questions as the class is about to leave, such as, "Considering what you know about the middle ages, why do you think that Hobbes thought government should be absolute?" A few days later, "Considering how close in time Locke was writing compared to Hobbes, what do you think accounts for the differences?"

How many here can answer that off the top of their heads? That's what I mean by would mean little to parents. BTW there are cogent answers for those, which would be addressed in class.

Just for the record, I would fail your class miserably.

 

[xotoxi]

As somebody suggested, we often just switched papers with a classmate and graded each other's papers as the teacher gave us the answers and then turned in the papers for the grades to be recorded.

Slavery.

 

[Foxfyre]

As somebody suggested, we often just switched papers with a classmate and graded each other's papers as the teacher gave us the answers and then turned in the papers for the grades to be recorded.

Slavery.

LOL. Yep. But when I attended public school, the kids had absolutely no rights whatsoever. Nor expected any.