I have been Called to the Principal's Office

[Samson]

If your child is in a class where the students are discussing literature, and the grade is based on participation, what do you want the teacher to send home? A videotape of the class?

"Discussing Literature" is not a measurable teaching objective, and if that's all the lesson plan contains, then don't be surprised when you graduate a bunch of babbling idiots.

Discussing literature was one of my favorite things to do in school, and I distinctly remember getting quizzes and tests on what we discussed, to demonstrate that we had read the book, were paying attention to the discussion, and had understood the material. It can be hard in a classroom full of thirty kids for everyone to get a chance to visibly "participate", and hey, some kids are really shy about talking in class.
Doesn't mean they weren't listening and learning.

What you've described is fantastic, and the norm; teacher lead discussion, conclusions, synthesis of other materials, etc.

But as you say, you cannot just freaking say, "OK everyone gets an "A" for the WHOLE WEEK" based only on the discussion. There may be an essay, quiz, test, reading comprehension test, etc., etc.

Of course all this must be organized, then graded by the teacher: Much easier to just sit around all week and play Oprah Winfrey.

 

[Samson]

Exactly. In Ninth Grade we read Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" in English class and we discussed it extensively. Then we were instructed to write a paper that must be at least eight to ten pages long outlining the universal truths in Julius Caesar and why those were universal truths. Students who didn't pay attention during the discussion probably didn't do well on that paper. And the rest of us were required to condense our thinking, actually identify and be able to explain the various components, and organize them into a coherant form.

The discussion was the 'teaching'. The composition was the evidence that the 'teaching' had been learned and understood. The teacher was there for students who got stuck or had questions during the week long process of writing that paper.

I don't know how any teacher determines that the kids are actually getting it without some form of testing mechanism. That was an exercise that I still remember to this day however. And it inspired me to want to be a writer/resercher.

I understand that the composition was the "test" showing evidence of learning.

However, that was not done weekly, correct? Which is what Samson would like from his child's teachers...weekly graded items.

There are some classes that are structured not to produce weekly graded items...except perhaps for participation.

I have six hours of college American History in which half the grade was based on class participation and half on the one exam--the final exam. I attended the first class and did not attend another until the last day and the final exam. I aced the final and made a C for the course. How? By scanning the text book (from which the professor never deviated) to re-memorize dates and names and from Highschool history classes in which I did have a graded quiz every week.

Do you think I got my money's worth for the college courses? I definitely learned the history in Highschool and continue to have a lifetime fascination and appreciation for it. But I did have a weekly quiz--usually graded by a classmate--but recorded by the teacher--and periodic major written tests that counted for a good deal of my grade.

Maybe every single week is too much to expect, but a few graded homework assignments or tests during the month I do not think is too much to expect from any teacher.

I'm not comparing what goes on in a public school to what happens at college: Huge Freakin' difference is, if you don't like how you're being graded, (you don't think you're getting your money's worth) then pick up your marbles and go home.

Public School is more like; "If you don't like it, fuck you, we'll get your money whether or not you like what we do with it."

 

[Foxfyre]

I have always thought good students and good teachers can grow and prosper even in a poor district. That doesn't mean you are going to change the whole culture.

It is a fact that some of the states spending the least per capita on education are producing some of the highest SAT etc. scores. I was blessed with an excellent education in schools that were not air conditioned, that were miserably drafty on windy winter days, that had rough wood floors, beat up desks, and textbooks reinforced with duct tape. Washington DC by comparison has some of the finest public school facilities and spends more per capita on education than just about anywhere in the world, yet produces some of the most miserable results.

Wouldn't this suggest that a good education does not depend on how much money is spent on it, but rather on attitudes of educators, parents, and students?

One of the most important things learned in a good management course is that you cannot fix a bad system by changing the people. And you can't fix bad people by changing the system.

I think there are some really bad teachers out there; yet I know many dedicated, capable, competent educators too. I think maybe there are a lot of those who post here on USMB.

So I tend to think the problem is more likely to be cultural and systemic. And I think until we address that, we aren't likely to see things get much better.

 

[Samson]

I think there are some really bad teachers out there; yet I know many dedicated, capable, competent educators too.

Well?

In your opinion does a good educator share with the parents of the student his or her progress more, or less often?

You think that with teachers under fire, they'd want.... NO... beg to have the greatest chances of looking good.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The problem, overwhelmingly, I am convinced needs to be addressed by parents committed to their kids and their kids' education. If parents want good education, they will make it happen. If they want a self-subsidized day care and holding center in place of education, it will continue to happen.

 

[Annie]

The problem, overwhelmingly, I am convinced needs to be addressed by parents committed to their kids and their kids' education. If parents want good education, they will make it happen. If they want a self-subsidized day care and holding center in place of education, it will continue to happen.

So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children? What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

 

[Foxfyre]

I think there are some really bad teachers out there; yet I know many dedicated, capable, competent educators too.

Well?

In your opinion does a good educator share with the parents of the student his or her progress more, or less often?

You think that with teachers under fire, they'd want.... NO... beg to have the greatest chances of looking good.

Hey I've been pretty much on your side through this entire discussion. I think a teacher might be forgiven for not sending a graded something home every single week, but I fully agree that if the teacher isn't grading homework and tests and thus giving the kid feedback on what he is or isn't getting from the course, the teacher isn't doing their job.

My parents never asked to see my papers, but I wanted an education anyway. I sure as heck had those papers if my parents had cared in any way. (They did see and sign off on my report cards and I guess that was sufficient for them.)

 

[Samson]

[So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children?

These are quite far and few between

[What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

Trauancy Law Enforcement: Fine the parents

 

[Annie]

The problem, overwhelmingly, I am convinced needs to be addressed by parents committed to their kids and their kids' education. If parents want good education, they will make it happen. If they want a self-subsidized day care and holding center in place of education, it will continue to happen.

[So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children?

These are quite far and few between


What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

Trauancy Law Enforcement: Fine the parents

Not sure what happened here, but your quoting has attribution to me, I did not make.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truancy laws and fines for the parents that don't or won't care.

 

[Foxfyre]

The problem, overwhelmingly, I am convinced needs to be addressed by parents committed to their kids and their kids' education. If parents want good education, they will make it happen. If they want a self-subsidized day care and holding center in place of education, it will continue to happen.

So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children? What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

This is one of the hardest things to deal with. My gut instincts are that the whole class must not be punished or disadvantaged by the 'slow' students who aren't getting parental support or who have parents who just can't be bothered. When I was hands on with the schools, our remedy was to enlist volunteer tutors who will work with the slow kids, but the rest of the class will go at the fastest pace possible and cover as much ground as they are capable of doing. I currently participate in just such a volunteer tutoring program at an elementary school now.

It does require a particular caliber of principal and teacher, however, to utilize 'civilian' volunteers in constructive ways.

 

[Annie]

The problem, overwhelmingly, I am convinced needs to be addressed by parents committed to their kids and their kids' education. If parents want good education, they will make it happen. If they want a self-subsidized day care and holding center in place of education, it will continue to happen.

So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children? What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

This is one of the hardest things to deal with. My gut instincts are that the whole class must not be punished or disadvantaged by the 'slow' students who aren't getting parental support or who have parents who just can't be bothered. When I was hands on with the schools, our remedy was to enlist volunteer tutors who will work with the slow kids, but the rest of the class will go at the fastest pace possible and cover as much ground as they are capable of doing. I currently participate in just such a volunteer tutoring program at an elementary school now.

It does require a particular caliber of principal and teacher, however, to utilize 'civilian' volunteers in constructive ways.

That sounds wonderful. Kudos to you and the district that encourages such.

 

[Annie]

Truancy laws and fines for the parents that don't or won't care.

That might work for those that are ditching classes, but what about those that show up, but don't want to learn? It tends to hurt others to a degree, not small.

 

[Samson]

Truancy laws and fines for the parents that don't or won't care.

That might work for those that are ditching classes, but what about those that show up, but don't want to learn? It tends to hurt others to a degree, not small.

Hey, that's part of the teacher's job: To make students want to learn.

 

[Annie]

Truancy laws and fines for the parents that don't or won't care.

That might work for those that are ditching classes, but what about those that show up, but don't want to learn? It tends to hurt others to a degree, not small.

Hey, that's part of the teacher's job: To make students want to learn.

Right. I'm seriously wondering about your teaching/asstnt VP claims. You failed about the post where you made attributions in quoting towards myself, now this?

Any teacher, from any school, no matter how well off or impoverished, understands that disruptive kids keep the class from learning. You sir, seem to be claiming that you as a math teacher gave daily grades, no mistakes, and all your students learned. You graded all spelling, and used scantrons sparingly with math. You do not seem to have ever taught.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truancy laws and fines for the parents that don't or won't care.

That might work for those that are ditching classes, but what about those that show up, but don't want to learn? It tends to hurt others to a degree, not small.

Hey, that's part of the teacher's job: To make students want to learn.

Learning will occur if the teacher can hit that inner potential of rapport that each child possesses.

A teacher doesn't stop teaching because the student is slow or challenged; the teacher keeps plugging.

One of the issues we had to correct and it took some time to do that was to end the 'children of the town leaders and popular teachers and parents' being grouped together in particular classes. One particular principal fought that with her all. When she was not extended, she got the message and asked forgiveness but got the door instead.

Children understand fairness above all else. Doesn't matter if a child comes from a million dollar home or the projects: all children deserve an equal opportunity to achieve.

 

[Foxfyre]

So what are the schools to do with the kids whose parent(s) are working too many hours, don't have the interest or ability to help their children? What of those parents, especially of pre-teens and teens, who cannot make their children go to day care?

This is one of the hardest things to deal with. My gut instincts are that the whole class must not be punished or disadvantaged by the 'slow' students who aren't getting parental support or who have parents who just can't be bothered. When I was hands on with the schools, our remedy was to enlist volunteer tutors who will work with the slow kids, but the rest of the class will go at the fastest pace possible and cover as much ground as they are capable of doing. I currently participate in just such a volunteer tutoring program at an elementary school now.

It does require a particular caliber of principal and teacher, however, to utilize 'civilian' volunteers in constructive ways.

That sounds wonderful. Kudos to you and the district that encourages such.

Unfortunately the "district" is the Allbuquerque Public Schools that have an abysmal track record for educating kids. The only kudos involved re the district is that the Superintendent(s) have not squelched or interfered with the vision of the principal and teachers at the two elementary schools where we provide volunteers. Lots of 'disadvantaged' students at those schools so we supplement with school supplies, mittens in the winter, warm socks, etc., but the hands on help with math, reading, and writing provided by the volunteers has been a wonderful thing.

There are schools in the district that want as little outside involvement as possible, however.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Foxfyre, I am out of rep, but I will catch you when I can. Bless you.

 

[Samson]

That might work for those that are ditching classes, but what about those that show up, but don't want to learn? It tends to hurt others to a degree, not small.

Hey, that's part of the teacher's job: To make students want to learn.

Right. I'm seriously wondering about your teaching/asstnt VP claims. You failed about the post where you made attributions in quoting towards myself, now this?

Any teacher, from any school, no matter how well off or impoverished, understands that disruptive kids keep the class from learning. You sir, seem to be claiming that you as a math teacher gave daily grades, no mistakes, and all your students learned. You graded all spelling, and used scantrons sparingly with math. You do not seem to have ever taught.

I suggest, madame, that instead of imagining what I "seem to be claiming," just read what I'm actually writing.

Motivating students to learn is part of the teacher's job in a public school.

Its not called PUBLIC for nothing: you get to teach everyone.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Annie, read what Samson is writing, instead of positing your pre-existing concepts of what you think teaching should be onto him.