CDZ I want to present this in this forum hopefully to get some real dialogue

[NotfooledbyW]

12#221 reply to 11#219 re: “ignorance vs reaction”

1. Because you did, finally, provide some past numbers, though not a range of what constitutes normal fluctuations.

I should not have had to do your homework for you.

Here is a math test for you:

​

At one hospital in Queens, a physician who oversees an intensive care unit said the hospital was struggling to find places to put the dead. Before the pandemic, they’d see 10 to 15 deaths a week, he said. Now they’re seeing 20 to 25 a day.​

"Too Many Corpses" As NYC’s Death Toll Soars, Overwhelming Hospitals, Morgues, Funeral Homes​

There are seven days in a week so before the pandemic the Queens hospital had 12.5 patients die per a normal week.

Now they are seeing 22.5 per day. What is the post-Pandemic death rate per week. . Hint, multiply the Pandemic daily rate of 22.5. X 7 = 158 deaths. Normal weekly deaths = 13. Pandemic weekly death rate at peak = 158.
Is that within your range of normal fluctuation?

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't easily abide monologues-

I want to talk about intellectual honesty. I posted this in another thread

Rush Limbaugh Floats Theory That Coronavirus Deaths Are Being Inflated to Push an Agenda

Conservative talk-radio host and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom honoree Rush Limbaugh on Thursday floated the theory that deaths from coronavirus have been inflated so that governments could further “the policies they have put in place.”Citing the latest record-breaking unemployment claims...

www.yahoo.com

I'm using that article as an example because I use the term intellectual honesty a lot- Rush, is a great example as well as our own beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic- I've said for years Rush is very intelligent, but he is hyper-partisan. I've told our very own, beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic, the same thing- I give them their just due for their intelligence, (and I'll add now, their tenacity as there is a lot to be said for that trait) but I can't abide their hyper-partisan intellect. Both are intelligent enough to know better and the evidence is overwhelming that there is very little difference in the Party elite outside their rhetoric, which is used as a tool to keep citizens divided. Any half wit can see there is no difference. Hitting a brick wall at 100 or at 90 still is hitting a brick wall. The only (maybe) difference is the rate of descent to the same destination- and that rate of descent is accelerating almost daily.

In the article it says what it says- I'm not going to give away the punch line- you have to read it and make your own determination.

I have already predicted this myself. We have already seen threads reporting on inflated counts from Italy.

The problem with this particular conspiracy theory is that there are hundreds of people dying in their homes in New York and other hot spots who are not being counted as Covid19 victims at all, even though they most certainly died of the virus.

It is also intellectually dishonest to say the patient died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place if they had not had covid19.

 

[Dick Foster]

12#221 reply to 11#219 re: “ignorance vs reaction”

1. Because you did, finally, provide some past numbers, though not a range of what constitutes normal fluctuations.

I should not have had to do your homework for you.

Here is a math test for you:

​

At one hospital in Queens, a physician who oversees an intensive care unit said the hospital was struggling to find places to put the dead. Before the pandemic, they’d see 10 to 15 deaths a week, he said. Now they’re seeing 20 to 25 a day.​

"Too Many Corpses" As NYC’s Death Toll Soars, Overwhelming Hospitals, Morgues, Funeral Homes​

There are seven days in a week so before the pandemic the Queens hospital had 12.5 patients die per a normal week.

Now they are seeing 22.5 per day. What is the post-Pandemic death rate per week. . Hint, multiply the Pandemic daily rate of 22.5. X 7 = 158 deaths. Normal weekly deaths = 13. Pandemic weekly death rate at peak = 158.
Is that within your range of normal fluctuation?

For a democrat run city in a deep blue state the answer is probably yes. There's just no telling when a big riot or some other kind of shit storm can break out.

 

[Gdjjr]

The problem with this particular conspiracy theory is that there are hundreds of people dying in their homes in New York and other hot spots who are not being counted as Covid19 victims at all, even though they most certainly died of the virus.

It is also intellectually dishonest to say the patient died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place if they had not had covid19.

That's your opinion. Do you have valid evidence or are you just regurgitating what you read from known liars?
You don't know. Ok- now what do you do? If you don't question "official" you will succumb to official-

 

[Correll]

11#220 reply to 11#219 re: “ignorance vs reaction”

3. If the makeshift morgue is not needed, then it will be shown to be an overreaction. IF it is needed, then it will be shown to have NOT been an overreaction.

NEEDED? The makeshift morgues are overflowing with dead bodies?

Where have you been hiding?

Can you imagine the stack of bodies if the economy was not shut down in New York where Governor Cuomo and NJ and Conn Governors shut it down when they did.

No, guess you can’t.

View attachment 321739

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

More than 1,500 people died in a 48-hour period in New York City this week, according to the city Health Department. That still fails to capture the full extent of the crisis, as city officials are still not releasing numbers of probable COVID-19 deaths where tests were not conducted.​

​

At one hospital in Queens, a physician who oversees an intensive care unit said the hospital was struggling to find places to put the dead. Before the pandemic, they’d see 10 to 15 deaths a week, he said. Now they’re seeing 20 to 25 a day.​

​

“That’s why people may not be getting ICU care in an expeditious fashion and are stuck on a ventilator on the floor,” said the doctor, who asked for his name and the name of his employer withheld because he didn't have permission to speak to the press. “There’s no place to put the body that died in the ICU three hours previously.”​

​

As of Wednesday afternoon, he said, the hospital had more than 500 COVID-19 patients, 83 of whom were on ventilators. Of those on ventilators, 23 were in regular hospital rooms waiting to be moved into​

intensive care units, he added.​

​

The refrigerated trucks the hospital is using as extra morgue space had filled up, forcing the hospital to use unrefrigerated space in storage rooms throughout the hospital, he described. He recently followed a “transporter,” whose job it is to move patients and bodies throughout the facility, to one of those makeshift locations.​

​

“Twelve to fourteen [bodies], in a 15’ by 15’ room, literally side by side on the stretchers. It’s horrible, horrible, it’s terrible,” the doctor said. “I’m not sure there are any good solutions about where to put them.”​

Erik Frampton, an out-of-work custom art framer, was recently hired by a funeral director to help handle the surge of corpses at a Bronx hospital. When he arrived at the location on Monday morning, he found a refrigeration truck filled with dozens of corpses stacked one on top of another, even though the official protocol from the city’s office of emergency management says “decedents should never be stacked.”​

​

Instead of 40 to 44 bodies in the trailer, there were close to a hundred, he said. He spent two days moving and stacking corpses and inserting shelving to create more space. Frampton also asked for the name of the hospital and his employer to be withheld because he doesn’t want them to be singled out for criticism.​

​

“It’s a very gruesome jigsaw puzzle that doesn’t make any sense for the living or the dead, but it got done,” said Framptom. “No one is doing anything wrong. Everyone is doing what they can and yet, it’s all wrong.”​

​

Framptom described wearing garbage bags on his feet and legs and an N95 mask, while standing in a mess of bodily fluids as they rearranged the corpses.​

“There’s too many corpses.”​

​

The backlog of the dead extends from hospital morgues and refrigeration trucks to funeral homes. At Sisto Funeral Home in the Throggs Neck section of the Bronx, funeral director Ralph Faiella has found cremations to be the biggest challenge, because the city’s four crematoria—two in Queens, one in Brooklyn, and another in the Bronx—are already booked for weeks.​

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

The makeshift tractor trailer morgues are overwhelmed so you should respond that there has NOT been an overreaction and you now agree shutting the economy down as TrumpO says, has saved over two million lives if the death toll does not exceed 200,000.

[/QUOTE]


Seems to be the case. If that information is supported by later events, it will make me feel better about the scale of the reaction.

 

[Dragonlady]

The problem with this particular conspiracy theory is that there are hundreds of people dying in their homes in New York and other hot spots who are not being counted as Covid19 victims at all, even though they most certainly died of the virus.

It is also intellectually dishonest to say the patient died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place if they had not had covid19.

That's your opinion. Do you have valid evidence or are you just regurgitating what you read from known liars?
You don't know. Ok- now what do you do? If you don't question "official" you will succumb to official-

You asked a question in the CDZ and you asked for responses. I give you a well reasoned and thoughtful response in the CDZ, and you suggested that I'm lying or "regurgitating lies". If you don't want an honest discussion of facts, don't post in the CDZ. This is not the place to flame people who disagree with you.

 

[Correll]

12#221 reply to 11#219 re: “ignorance vs reaction”

1. Because you did, finally, provide some past numbers, though not a range of what constitutes normal fluctuations.

I should not have had to do your homework for you.

Here is a math test for you:

​

At one hospital in Queens, a physician who oversees an intensive care unit said the hospital was struggling to find places to put the dead. Before the pandemic, they’d see 10 to 15 deaths a week, he said. Now they’re seeing 20 to 25 a day.​

"Too Many Corpses" As NYC’s Death Toll Soars, Overwhelming Hospitals, Morgues, Funeral Homes​

There are seven days in a week so before the pandemic the Queens hospital had 12.5 patients die per a normal week.

Now they are seeing 22.5 per day. What is the post-Pandemic death rate per week. . Hint, multiply the Pandemic daily rate of 22.5. X 7 = 158 deaths. Normal weekly deaths = 13. Pandemic weekly death rate at peak = 158.
Is that within your range of normal fluctuation?

I don't know the range of normal fluctuations. That was my point. Is the average of 10 to 15 rock solid? or is it something 8 to 12 and other years 17 to 20? If the latter, than 22.5 is not that shocking. If the previous record was 16, then it is shocking.

 

[Correll]

I don't easily abide monologues-

I want to talk about intellectual honesty. I posted this in another thread

Rush Limbaugh Floats Theory That Coronavirus Deaths Are Being Inflated to Push an Agenda

Conservative talk-radio host and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom honoree Rush Limbaugh on Thursday floated the theory that deaths from coronavirus have been inflated so that governments could further “the policies they have put in place.”Citing the latest record-breaking unemployment claims...

www.yahoo.com

I'm using that article as an example because I use the term intellectual honesty a lot- Rush, is a great example as well as our own beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic- I've said for years Rush is very intelligent, but he is hyper-partisan. I've told our very own, beloved, I'm sure, PoliticalChic, the same thing- I give them their just due for their intelligence, (and I'll add now, their tenacity as there is a lot to be said for that trait) but I can't abide their hyper-partisan intellect. Both are intelligent enough to know better and the evidence is overwhelming that there is very little difference in the Party elite outside their rhetoric, which is used as a tool to keep citizens divided. Any half wit can see there is no difference. Hitting a brick wall at 100 or at 90 still is hitting a brick wall. The only (maybe) difference is the rate of descent to the same destination- and that rate of descent is accelerating almost daily.

In the article it says what it says- I'm not going to give away the punch line- you have to read it and make your own determination.

I have already predicted this myself. We have already seen threads reporting on inflated counts from Italy.

The problem with this particular conspiracy theory is that there are hundreds of people dying in their homes in New York and other hot spots who are not being counted as Covid19 victims at all, even though they most certainly died of the virus.

It is also intellectually dishonest to say the patient died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place if they had not had covid19.

Yes, it would be intellectually dishonest to say that a patient who died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place.


On the other hand, I had a lib tell me that he would count a patient who died of an unrelated stroke, as a convid 19 death, and another who just admitted that he would just assume any death WITH convid was CAUSED by convid.


The motive for lying is there. The moral justification(s) have been widely accepted.


After all, if you really believe the Trump is Hitler, then if you could undermine him, and you passed up the chance and then he went on to commit who knows what imagined and hysterical crimes,


it would be all YOUR FAULT!!!!

 

[Gdjjr]

This is not the place to flame people who disagree with you.

I'm not Flaming. I posted my opinion, in MY thread about "intellectual honesty". If you disagree state the disagreement and we can discuss it.
I don't do dogma- religious or political. Period. The second you stated "conspiracy theory" you Flamed.
The only conspiracy is those who succumb to "official" bloviating. EVERYTHING begins as a theory. To not admit that is intellectual dishonesty.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

. Is the average of 10 to 15 rock solid? or is it something 8 to 12 and other years 17 to 20? If the latter, than 22.5 is not that shocking. I

the 22.5 is deaths per day in this crisis.

the - Pre-crisis normal was 10 to 15 per week.

that’s 158 vs 12.5 per week

Are you shocked into reality yet?

Is saving two million American lives worth the mitigation effort yet?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The problem with this particular conspiracy theory is that there are hundreds of people dying in their homes in New York and other hot spots who are not being counted as Covid19 victims at all, even though they most certainly died of the virus.

It is also intellectually dishonest to say the patient died of pneumonia when they would not have had pneumonia in the first place if they had not had covid19.

That's your opinion. Do you have valid evidence or are you just regurgitating what you read from known liars?
You don't know. Ok- now what do you do? If you don't question "official" you will succumb to official-

You asked a question in the CDZ and you asked for responses. I give you a well reasoned and thoughtful response in the CDZ, and you suggested that I'm lying or "regurgitating lies". If you don't want an honest discussion of facts, don't post in the CDZ. This is not the place to flame people who disagree with you.

He's correct. You made a claim, therefore you should provide evidence of it. Anyone can say anything on the Internet.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Is saving two million American lives worth the mitigation effort yet?

You have no evidence that 2 million American lives have been saved

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The second you stated "conspiracy theory" you Flamed.

here is your pathetic conspiracy

Post #52.

It is- as was h1n1 and all previous strains and there was no hysteria- this is all media bullshit because they don't like Trump and will sell their souls just to be able to hate him publicly

Your conspiracy theory is based on a completely dishonest false equivalency comparing H1N1 to COVID-19.

It is pitiful because The Sitting President of the United States of American once pushed it, but now publicly refutes it every time he touts notion that his actions will save the lives of two million Americans.

he said it repeatedly today.

 

[Gdjjr]

Are you shocked into reality yet?

Have you ever heard of Patrick Henry? Do you know what he was famous for saying? I do and I agree with him.
"Official" is nothing more than some alleged expert giving his speculative opinion- experts are usually compensated by someone with an agenda- it's quite common in court rooms- that is the reality. Your perception(s) are flawed through a prism of political "expert" bias.

 

[Gdjjr]

Your conspiracy theory is based on a completely dishonest false equivalency comparing H1N1 to COVID-19.

Actually, your perception is politically motivated- it means nothing to me to be honest- intellectually.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

12#236 reply to 12#232 re: “2.2 million Americans dying all over the place “

Is saving two million American lives worth the mitigation effort yet?

You have no evidence that 2 million American lives have been saved

If C19 was left unchecked like Trump’s Evangelical Floor Lickers wanted, 2.2 million would be scratching the surface.

Have you any idea what the hell TrumpO is talking about?

“Dying on Airplanes”​

Remarks by President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Members of the Coronavirus Task Force in Press Briefing​

Issued on: April 1, 2020

THE PRESIDENT: It says 100- to 200,000. Anything — it’s a lot of people, right? It’s a lot of people.​

Well, you didn’t ask the other question. What would have happened — because this is the question that I’ve been asking Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx for a long time, and they’ve been working on this for a long time.​

The question is: What would have happened if we did nothing? Because there was a group that said, “Let’s just ride it out. Let’s ride it out.” What would have happened? And that number comes in at 1.5 to 1.6 million people, up to 2.2 and even beyond. So that’s 2.2 million people would have died if we did nothing, if we just carried on our life.​

Now, I don’t think that would have been possible because you would have had people dying all over the place. This would not have been a normal life. How many people have even seen anybody die? You would have seen people dying on airplanes. You would have been seeing people dying in hotel lobbies. You would’ve seen death all over.​

So I think, from a practical standpoint, that couldn’t have been carried out too far. But — but if you — if you did nothing, on the higher side, the number would be 2.2 and maybe even more, and on the lower side, 1.6 million people.​

 

[eagle1462010]

12#236 reply to 12#233 re: “2.2 million Americans dying all over the place “

Is saving two million American lives worth the mitigation effort yet?

You have no evidence that 2 million American lives have been saved

If C19 was left unchecked like Trump’s Evangelical Floor Lickers wanted, 2.2 million would be scratching the surface.

Have you any idea what the hell TrumpO is talking about?

“Dying on Airplanes”​

Remarks by President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Members of the Coronavirus Task Force in Press Briefing​

Issued on: April 1, 2020

THE PRESIDENT: It says 100- to 200,000. Anything — it’s a lot of people, right? It’s a lot of people.​

Well, you didn’t ask the other question. What would have happened — because this is the question that I’ve been asking Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx for a long time, and they’ve been working on this for a long time.​

The question is: What would have happened if we did nothing? Because there was a group that said, “Let’s just ride it out. Let’s ride it out.” What would have happened? And that number comes in at 1.5 to 1.6 million people, up to 2.2 and even beyond. So that’s 2.2 million people would have died if we did nothing, if we just carried on our life.​

Now, I don’t think that would have been possible because you would have had people dying all over the place. This would not have been a normal life. How many people have even seen anybody die? You would have seen people dying on airplanes. You would have been seeing people dying in hotel lobbies. You would’ve seen death all over.​

So I think, from a practical standpoint, that couldn’t have been carried out too far. But — but if you — if you did nothing, on the higher side, the number would be 2.2 and maybe even more, and on the lower side, 1.6 million people.​

Estimated deaths from the CDC based on projections when they have NO CLUE how many in this country have really had the virus yet............Most get it and have no symptoms at all.......some mild and stay home and beat it..........it is only a small percentage that go to the hospital..........

Those projections are GUESSES.......with too many unknown variables..........best scenarios that even Fauci has used was 1957 and 1968 were over 100,000 died each time from the virus. That would be higher if you factor in the population increases........


So...........we stopped it for a couple of months.......NO CURE YET..........NOW WHAT.........it's not gone..........we minimized the initial damage.........and WHAT........it's gonna keep coming until we have a cure or it runs it's course...............

You can play the body bag game all day long..........REALITY SUCKS SOME TIME.........we need to keep the vulnerable hid away and let the healthy public go back to work with precautions and many will get it and then they CAN'T SPREAD THE DANG THING ANYMORE...............and the spread will lower as a result.

All we have done is buy time..........and if a vaccine doesn't come soon........it's only spreading the damage out over a long time........the damage will be very similar either way......with the exception of treatments lowering the death tolls.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

....we minimized the initial damage.........

what does it mean to you exactly that....we minimized the initial damage.......?

If this first wave comes in at 100,000 deaths as a result of shutting the non-essential economy down, what would you accept as a reasonable projection has the mitigation effort not taken place?

Should schools and universities stayed open. Bars and restaurants business as usual. Packed tens of thousands into basketball stadiums, let holy rollers pack em in and lick the floors, let the Mar-A-Lago international infestation parties go on. Kept Disneylsnd open. Tourism?!

We Shut it v all down so is Trump lying?

The question is: What would have happened if we did nothing? Because there was a group that said, “Let’s just ride it out. Let’s ride it out.” What would have happened? And that number comes in at 1.5 to 1.6 million people, up to 2.2 and even beyond. So that’s 2.2 million people would have died if we did nothing, if we just carried on our life.” Trump 4/1/2020.​

What’s the right number Trump should be saying.

​

 

[eagle1462010]

....we minimized the initial damage.........

what does it mean to you exactly that....we minimized the initial damage.......?

If this first wave comes in at 100,000 deaths as a result of shutting the non-essential economy down, what would you accept as a reasonable projection has the mitigation effort not taken place?

Should schools and universities stayed open. Bars and restaurants business as usual. Packed tens of thousands into basketball stadiums, let holy rollers pack em in and lick the floors, let the Mar-A-Lago international infestation parties go on. Kept Disneylsnd open. Tourism?!

We Shut it v all down so is Trump lying?

​

The question is: What would have happened if we did nothing? Because there was a group that said, “Let’s just ride it out. Let’s ride it out.” What would have happened? And that number comes in at 1.5 to 1.6 million people, up to 2.2 and even beyond. So that’s 2.2 million people would have died if we did nothing, if we just carried on our life.” Trump 4/1/2020.​

What’s the right number Trump should be saying.

​

It means what I've said for months...........that this will run it's course...........THEY ALWAYS DO.......I can't help it if you can't HANDLE REALITY.

Minimize..........we shut down the fing world..........and it has CAUSED MASSIVE ECONOMIC DAMAGE.........................And all it has done is PROLONGED THIS..............That is why Sweden.....................said.......

FUCK IT.........They gave advice to the people and tried to live as normal as lives as possible........If no vaccine.........guess what bro.........This has only just begun........Sweden will be better off earlier than the rest of the world because they said FUCK IT.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#. reply to #225

Seems to be the case. If that information is supported by later events, it will make me feel better about the scale of the reaction.

If you are going to vote for Trump you will have to flip on the value of shutting the economy down to save lives.

His campaign will be all about 100,000 dead is a victory because if not for himit would have been 2 million.

Thats after his first round of self praise was bragging how he shut down travel from China and because of the brilliant decision, “ the risk to the American people remains very low.”

Remarks by President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Members of the Coronavirus Task Force in Press Conference | The White House​

President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Members of the Coronavirus Task Force in Press Conference​

James S. Brady Press Briefing Room​

February 26, 2020 6:37 P.M. EST​

THE PRESIDENT: Because of all we’ve done, the risk to the American people remains very low.​

THE PRESIDENT: Of the 15 people — the “original 15,” as I call them — 8 of them have returned to their homes, to stay in their homes until fully recovered. One is in the hospital and five have fully recovered. And one is, we think, in pretty good shape and it’s in between hospital and going home.​

So we have a total of — but we have a total of 15 people, and they’re in a process of recovering, with some already having fully recovered.​

THE PRESIDENT: Hopefully, we’re not going to have to spend so much because we really think we’ve done a great job in keeping it down to a minimum. And again, we’ve had tremendous success — tremendous success — beyond what people would have thought.​

THE PRESIDENT: And, so far, if you look at what we have with the 15 people and their recovery, one is — one is pretty sick but hopefully will recover, but the others are in great shape.​

​

THE PRESIDENT: And we have a total of 15 cases, many of which, or most — within a day, I will tell you most of whom are fully recovered. I think that’s, really, a pretty impressive mark.​

​

THE PRESIDENT: And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.​

THE PRESIDENT; I think every aspect of our society should be prepared. I don’t think it’s going to come to that, especially with the fact that we’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.​

THE PRESIDENT; But we have it so well under control. I mean, we really have done a very good job.​