IDF...Here We Come.

[patrickcaturday]

I'll let the powers that be decide whether any board rules were violated, since the material in question was copied from another source.

So there isn't any difinitive evidence they took the oath, as it might be possible that foreign volunteers might not be subject to it unless they are also requesting citizenship.

i grabbed the first source i came across when you asked and i did not copy any of his original copyrighted material, just the public domain material. if it will ease your mind, i will add the same source to the original.

it is a standard oath administered to all recruits.

I don't believe the oath is part of the requirements and procedures for non Israelis. I checked.

It will be administered if the individual is requesting citizenship, which in turn will increase the duration of service as well as additional requirements will be requested.

Do you have a link ???

 

[Roudy]

From the following post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/307666-idf-here-we-come.html#post7677572

"there is no question about dual loyalties here. these olim have rejected the USA and have demeaned our military with such statements as "I decided I wanted to serve in the best air force in the world with the best pilots".

while america has been engaged in war for over ten years, these young people raised in jewish homes and eager to serve in combat units, have turned their backs on the country of their birth to join a foreign countries military. it lends new meaning to "israel is and will always be america's greatest ally."

Antisemitic canard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dual loyalty[edit source]

A canard found in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but dating to before that document, is that Jews are more loyal to world Jewry than to their own country. Since the establishment of the state of Israel, this canard has taken the form of accusations that Jewish citizens of countries such as the United States are more loyal to Israel than to their home country.[51]

 

[Roudy]

I don't believe the oath is part of the requirements and procedures for non Israelis. I checked.

It will be administered if the individual is requesting citizenship, which in turn will increase the duration of service as well as additional requirements will be requested.

Do you have a link ???

Information is readily available. Do you have a link that the oath is a requirement and was taken?

 

[Roudy]

An antisemitic canard (evoking a French-derived English catchword for "hoax") is a false story inciting antisemitism.

Antisemitic canard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dual loyalty[edit source]

A canard found in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but dating to before that document, is that Jews are more loyal to world Jewry than to their own country. Since the establishment of the state of Israel, this canard has taken the form of accusations that Jewish citizens of countries such as the United States are more loyal to Israel than to their home country.[51]

This accusation that you try to disprove seems to be proven true by this quote which I took from the OP

"I decided I wanted to serve in the best air force in the world with the best pilots," Yablon says. "My dream is to be a combat pilot in the Israel Air Force and defend the State of Israel. My two greatest loves are Israel and flying. It's very important to me to fight for what I believe in.

"I have always loved Israel. I feel connected to it. Israel for me is much more than old buildings, beaches and shawarma. It's the idea that Jews have their own homeland and have a home to go back to. I feel sad that Jews could not always immigrate to Israel, but today it's possible and I don't want to miss the opportunity."

Would that include all other Americans that served in the French, British, and recently Libyan people's armies, or just Jews that served in Israel?

 

[patrickcaturday]

Do you have a link ???

Information is readily available. Do you have a link that the oath is a requirement and was taken?

I know that in your arrogance you beleive that you exhibit a superior intelligence to all of the other board members. Another thing I know is that you made the reference and therefore it is up to you to provide the link, so either produce it or go away.

 

[sealadaigh]

From the following post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/307666-idf-here-we-come.html#post7677572

"there is no question about dual loyalties here. these olim have rejected the USA and have demeaned our military with such statements as "I decided I wanted to serve in the best air force in the world with the best pilots".

while america has been engaged in war for over ten years, these young people raised in jewish homes and eager to serve in combat units, have turned their backs on the country of their birth to join a foreign countries military. it lends new meaning to "israel is and will always be america's greatest ally."

Antisemitic canard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dual loyalty[edit source]

A canard found in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but dating to before that document, is that Jews are more loyal to world Jewry than to their own country. Since the establishment of the state of Israel, this canard has taken the form of accusations that Jewish citizens of countries such as the United States are more loyal to Israel than to their home country.[51]

roudy, in the context...i stated that these people have a sigular loyalty...to israel.

they should renounce their citisenship.

i am not accusing jews of having dual loyalties because they are jews. i am saying that these jews are loyal to israel.

 

[Roudy]

i am not accusing jews of having dual loyalties because they are jews. i am saying that these jews are loyal to israel.

"there is no question about dual loyalties here....they should renounce their citizenship

Antisemitic canard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Accusations of cowardice and lack of patriotism

In Stalin's Soviet Union, the state-wide campaign against "rootless cosmopolitans" – a euphemism for Jews – was set out on 28 January 1949 with an article in the newspaper Pravda:


"unbridled, evil-minded cosmopolitans, profiteers with no roots and no conscience...Grown on rotten yeast of bourgeois cosmopolitanism, decadence and formalism...non-indigenous nationals without a motherland, who poison with stench...our proletarian culture."[56]

 

[Roudy]

Information is readily available. Do you have a link that the oath is a requirement and was taken?

I know that in your arrogance you beleive that you exhibit a superior intelligence to all of the other board members. Another thing I know is that you made the reference and therefore it is up to you to provide the link, so either produce it or go away.

The claim was that these recruits swore an oath. All I asked was if there was proof for this or if this is an unsubstantiated allegation. The burden of proof is upon those who made this allegation. My information says no, it is not part of the procedures of those foreign nationals who wish to serve in the Israeli army. I won't bother addressing the insults and flames.

 

[sealadaigh]

I know that in your arrogance you beleive that you exhibit a superior intelligence to all of the other board members. Another thing I know is that you made the reference and therefore it is up to you to provide the link, so either produce it or go away.

The claim was that these recruits swore an oath. All I asked was if there was proof for this or if this is an unsubstantiated allegation. The burden of proof is upon those who made this allegation. My information says no, it is not part of the procedures of those foreign nationals who wish to serve in the Israeli army. I won't bother addressing the insults and flames.

LOL...i saw what you edited, but that is neither here not there.

The "Tolerance Code" of the Israel Defense Forces

it would seem that if some soldiers were not required to take the oath, it would be mentioned here. my only conclusion is rthat the obvious need not be stated. however, you are absolutely right, i have no link to that unstated obvious.

now, you also made the allegation that recruits from foreign countries were not required to take the oath and you say you checked, no less. please provide the proof of your allegation with a link.

 

[MHunterB]

Seal, please explain the Constitutional principle upon which you are basing your call to revoke these young people's citizenship?

Since our military has been all-volunteer since ?1981 or so - it's been a very long time! - and there is no shortage of qualified applicants, there doesn't seem to be a practical reason either.

As for the 'ingratitude' - every young person who declines to serve the US in military or other ways is equally 'ungrateful', IMHO. I'm in favor of a truly universal service requirement to earn the right to vote OR collect from any social program except 'subsistence' as we would give to those completely unable to care for themselves.

The number or percentage of Jews or any other 'ethnic' group serving or nor serving in the US military is completely irrelevant to the topic.

So is whether or not the US is fighting a war anywhere - as long as we are NOT fighting one against Israel. With the alliance, I doubt that'll become a consideration, either.

We have probably had troops in the US military from every country on the planet, as we've had numerous Americans go overseas to fight for foreign countries. I can't understand why you imagine the US should even consider revoking someone's citizenship for joining an ally's military.

 

[MHunterB]

8 USC § 1481 - Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions | Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or

(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or

(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or

(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or

(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or

(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or

(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.

The way I read it, if there is no intent to relinquish US citizenship, there is no problem with someone joining another nation's military OR with holding dual citizenship.

 

[MHunterB]

The "Tolerance Code" of the Israel Defense Forces

it would seem that if some soldiers were not required to take the oath, it would be mentioned here. my only conclusion is rthat the obvious need not be stated. however, you are absolutely right, i have no link to that unstated obvious.

Since this 'tolerance code' is not about different citizenship - I don't see why there'd be any note about noncitizens taking or not taking the oath.

I believe it's immaterial, though, as the US law I posted (with link from Cornell Law School) seems to be rooted in *intent* by the individual rather than simply taking an oath to defend another nation.

Parenthetically, as my son's interested in going to McGill med school, he's looking into joining the Canadian armed forces if they'd pay his tuition. I can shoot him a text and see if he has any info on the topic - though I suspect he's gone to bed by now.

 

[MHunterB]

"roudy, in the context...i stated that these people have a sigular loyalty...to israel.

they should renounce their citisenship.

i am not accusing jews of having dual loyalties because they are jews. i am saying that these jews are loyal to israel. "

Seal, while it may be beyond your personal ability to comprehend that a given human might bear loyalty to two nations - that is not the understanding of US Law on the topic. Now if you just wanted to 'vent' here, that's one thing. But if you're at all serious and wish others to consider this as any more than just a rant - you will need to come up with compelling reasons for the US to change its legal code.

 

[MHunterB]

Incidentally, I've got two online associates who are combat pilots in the USAF - and they wouldn't dispute the idea that the IAF may possibly be 'the best'.

There's no clear consensus on the topic, but it's generally considered that the US/UK/DE AF's are pretty much on a par with the IDF. The pilots know: they do a lot of training together.

So as for 'insulting' our own AF - that's pretty ridiculous IMO.

 

[Roudy]

I know that in your arrogance you beleive that you exhibit a superior intelligence to all of the other board members. Another thing I know is that you made the reference and therefore it is up to you to provide the link, so either produce it or go away.

The claim was that these recruits swore an oath. All I asked was if there was proof for this or if this is an unsubstantiated allegation. The burden of proof is upon those who made this allegation. My information says no, it is not part of the procedures of those foreign nationals who wish to serve in the Israeli army. I won't bother addressing the insults and flames.

LOL...i saw what you edited, but that is neither here not there.

The "Tolerance Code" of the Israel Defense Forces

it would seem that if some soldiers were not required to take the oath, it would be mentioned here. my only conclusion is rthat the obvious need not be stated. however, you are absolutely right, i have no link to that unstated obvious.

now, you also made the allegation that recruits from foreign countries were not required to take the oath and you say you checked, no less. please provide the proof of your allegation with a link.

Edited? I did not use that site with regards to anything in this thread. However, your link still says nothing about the requirements for a foreign national applying to enlist in the Israeli military to take any specific oath.

 

[Roudy]

Incidentally, I've got two online associates who are combat pilots in the USAF - and they wouldn't dispute the idea that the IAF may possibly be 'the best'.

There's no clear consensus on the topic, but it's generally considered that the US/UK/DE AF's are pretty much on a par with the IDF. The pilots know: they do a lot of training together.

So as for 'insulting' our own AF - that's pretty ridiculous IMO.

The israeli Air force, is arguably, man for man the best in the world. In fact they are legendary and their feats attest to this. They have to be otherwise they wouldn't be able ensure Israel's security. This is nothing new. They just aren't as big as other air forces. Anybody who is legitimately knowledgeable in this field will testify to this.

 

[sealadaigh]

The claim was that these recruits swore an oath. All I asked was if there was proof for this or if this is an unsubstantiated allegation. The burden of proof is upon those who made this allegation. My information says no, it is not part of the procedures of those foreign nationals who wish to serve in the Israeli army. I won't bother addressing the insults and flames.

LOL...i saw what you edited, but that is neither here not there.

The "Tolerance Code" of the Israel Defense Forces

it would seem that if some soldiers were not required to take the oath, it would be mentioned here. my only conclusion is rthat the obvious need not be stated. however, you are absolutely right, i have no link to that unstated obvious.

now, you also made the allegation that recruits from foreign countries were not required to take the oath and you say you checked, no less. please provide the proof of your allegation with a link.

Edited? I did not use that site with regards to anything in this thread. However, your link still says nothing about the requirements for a foreign national applying to enlist in the Israeli military to take any specific oath.

roudy, i said i had no link. i also said it was probably a case of not stating the obvious.

now, you made the statement that recruits from foreign countries did not have to take the oath and you further stated you had proof. i want your link.

 

[sealadaigh]

Seal, please explain the Constitutional principle upon which you are basing your call to revoke these young people's citizenship?

Since our military has been all-volunteer since ?1981 or so - it's been a very long time! - and there is no shortage of qualified applicants, there doesn't seem to be a practical reason either.

As for the 'ingratitude' - every young person who declines to serve the US in military or other ways is equally 'ungrateful', IMHO. I'm in favor of a truly universal service requirement to earn the right to vote OR collect from any social program except 'subsistence' as we would give to those completely unable to care for themselves.

The number or percentage of Jews or any other 'ethnic' group serving or nor serving in the US military is completely irrelevant to the topic.

So is whether or not the US is fighting a war anywhere - as long as we are NOT fighting one against Israel. With the alliance, I doubt that'll become a consideration, either.

We have probably had troops in the US military from every country on the planet, as we've had numerous Americans go overseas to fight for foreign countries. I can't understand why you imagine the US should even consider revoking someone's citizenship for joining an ally's military.

marg, really, when did i say anything about the constitution.

i said exactly and concisely that i thought that americans who enlist in a foreign military while america is at war and furthermore, who take an oath of allegiance to that foreign country, should have their citisenship revoked.

 

[sealadaigh]

The claim was that these recruits swore an oath. All I asked was if there was proof for this or if this is an unsubstantiated allegation. The burden of proof is upon those who made this allegation. My information says no, it is not part of the procedures of those foreign nationals who wish to serve in the Israeli army. I won't bother addressing the insults and flames.

LOL...i saw what you edited, but that is neither here not there.

The "Tolerance Code" of the Israel Defense Forces

it would seem that if some soldiers were not required to take the oath, it would be mentioned here. my only conclusion is rthat the obvious need not be stated. however, you are absolutely right, i have no link to that unstated obvious.

now, you also made the allegation that recruits from foreign countries were not required to take the oath and you say you checked, no less. please provide the proof of your allegation with a link.

Edited? I did not use that site with regards to anything in this thread. However, your link still says nothing about the requirements for a foreign national applying to enlist in the Israeli military to take any specific oath.

i am talking about what you edited out of your post, #48.

you indicated that you did not know whether an oath was required or not.

i had that post in ront of me and when i clicked "quote" your post was different so i hit my browser back button and the post to which i was responding was again the original. i hit quote again to respond and same deal so i just said "forget it."

it was no big deal. give us a link.

 

[sealadaigh]

Incidentally, I've got two online associates who are combat pilots in the USAF - and they wouldn't dispute the idea that the IAF may possibly be 'the best'.

There's no clear consensus on the topic, but it's generally considered that the US/UK/DE AF's are pretty much on a par with the IDF. The pilots know: they do a lot of training together.

So as for 'insulting' our own AF - that's pretty ridiculous IMO.

different deal, and they did add "possibly" and i am quite sure they were aware of your feelings on israel and and that you are jewish. of course, these associates wouldn't be afeccted by that now, would they?