IDF...Here We Come.

[Lipush]

ONCE AGAIN!!!​

here, for lipush and roudy...

The IDF General Staff order from 1948 says that every soldier who receives his or her personal weapon will make the following pledge: "I swear and commit to pledge allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and authorities, to accept upon myself unconditionally the authority of the Israel Defense Force, obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life for the protection of the homeland and liberty of Israel."

Protecting the homeland - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews

I was not a combat soldier, so there is your answer.

Happy now?

 

[Roudy]

ONCE AGAIN!!!​

here, for lipush and roudy...

The IDF General Staff order from 1948 says that every soldier who receives his or her personal weapon will make the following pledge: "I swear and commit to pledge allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and authorities, to accept upon myself unconditionally the authority of the Israel Defense Force, obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life for the protection of the homeland and liberty of Israel."

Protecting the homeland - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews

An opinion piece? Read the article, that is a pledge taken by recruits upon issuance of their weapon. It's like raising your right hand in court and swearing to tell the truth. The official pledge of allegiance when you become a citizen which is documented in front of a govt official in an official ceremony is different.

Naturally if the person is being handed a weapon would be required to say some type of oath to fight for the stare of Israel.

 

[Roudy]

then provide the oath you swore to, or in other words, you took.

If you're born in Israel you're not required to take the oath of allegiance. When you're recruited into the military you take the loyalty oath, as one would here in the US.

when the IDF oath given to recruits says "allegiance", i will take them at their word.

Not much difference between allegiance and loyalty. Besides what's the problem here? There is still no indication that foreign recruits are required to take it. And I'm sure those Americans who fought in other foreign armies were required to take oaths as well. Much ado about nothing.

 

[Roudy]

Loving America by serving in Israel?s army | Shmuley Boteach | Ops & Blogs | The Times of Israel

This traditional charge of Jewish dual loyalty is mostly spurred by anti-Jewish sentiment and is below the belt.

American independence would never have come about without the assistance of foreign fighters who helped a fledgling democracy achieve its freedom. In 1780 alone, more than 5,000 French soldiers landed in Rhode Island to help the Americans fight the British in New York. More famously, the decisive victory of Washington over Cornwallis at Yorktown on 19 October, 1781, would have been impossible without the assistance of the French Army and Navy led by the Comte de Rochambeau.

The most famous and noble example was that of Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, otherwise known as the Marquis de La Fayette. Lafayette, as every American schoolchild knows, was a French aristocrat who served under George Washington as a major-general in the Continental Army. Lafayette’s heroic struggle to help our nation achieve independence saw him wounded at the Battle of Brandywine. Not satisfied with risking life and limb in the cause of American independence, he even returned to France in the middle of the war to inspire and increase French support of the American Revolution. He too served at Yorktown, helping to block Cornwallis’s army, and witnessed the British surrender.

That spirit of the citizens of a strong, established, and noble nation reaching out to fight for the freedom and independence of a weaker republic yearning to breathe free lives on in the valiant American souls who fight for the IDF in Israel. My daughter is part of a young American warrior class who believe, in their righteous might, that a tiny, fledgling democracy in the world’s most dangerous region deserves more than to be bullied forever. They’re sick of witnessing the utter injustice of societies and cultures that brutalize women, gays, and non-Muslims, corrupting the innocence of their own children by teaching them to kill people just because of their ethnicity. Being Jewish is simply insufficient cause to be marked for death. Having grown up in the greatest democracy in the world, they want the blessings of freedom to be the birthright of every member of the human family.

 

[patrickcaturday]

I'll let the powers that be decide whether any board rules were violated, since the material in question was copied from another source.

So there isn't any difinitive evidence they took the oath, as it might be possible that foreign volunteers might not be subject to it unless they are also requesting citizenship.

i grabbed the first source i came across when you asked and i did not copy any of his original copyrighted material, just the public domain material. if it will ease your mind, i will add the same source to the original.

it is a standard oath administered to all recruits.

I don't believe the oath is part of the requirements and procedures for non Israelis. I checked.
It will be administered if the individual is requesting citizenship, which in turn will increase the duration of service as well as additional requirements will be requested.

Roudy:
I am getting a little tired of your efforts to disavow your own words !!! So what I did is I went back and found to post that is the crux of the matter as far as I am concerned. So here is a simple question that should take you no more then 5 minutes to answer seeing as how you have already done the leg work. What reference did you check with ??? Please provide us with a link to that reference. I know Seal has already asked this but you don't seem to understan, so as I said I decided to make it simple for you. Your welcome.

If you can't do this then simply say I am wrong and we will move on from there.

 

[Roudy]

Different oaths for different folks. Even though they sound similar to the pledge doesn't mean they are. Note the use of the word allegiance, which would be required from all foreigners serving in the US military:

Oaths of Enlistment and Oaths of Office - U.S. Army Center of Military History

Oaths of Enlistment and Oaths of Office

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

 

[sealadaigh]

ONCE AGAIN!!!​

here, for lipush and roudy...

The IDF General Staff order from 1948 says that every soldier who receives his or her personal weapon will make the following pledge: "I swear and commit to pledge allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and authorities, to accept upon myself unconditionally the authority of the Israel Defense Force, obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life for the protection of the homeland and liberty of Israel."

Protecting the homeland - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews

I was not a combat soldier, so there is your answer.

Happy now?

Tironut (Hebrew: טירונות*) is the Hebrew term for the recruit training of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

There are different levels of recruit training, and each corps or major unit has their own training program. Upon completing tironut, non-combat recruits are certified as Rifleman 02.[1] Combat recruits must complete Rifleman 03 basic training. Generally, infantry-specific training ranges from Rifleman 05 (combat engineering) to Rifleman 07 (infantry and combat engineers sappers, upon completion of advanced infantry training), whereas armored or artillery corps complete Rifleman 03 training. Elite units such as Sayeret Matkal do not complete a standard basic training course for a rifleman certification and have their own extended training courses which last over one year.

All recruits in the IDF basic training wear the general all-army olive drab beret and get their corps beret upon completion, in a ceremony where the recruits swear in to the IDF. Infantry units and some others such as military police swear in at the Western Wall.

Tironut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i assume that the IDF expects these non-combatant troops to actually fire a rifle to be certified and not just be able to differentiate a rifle from a howiter and i am almost cetain that these rifles are kept an an armory where each soldier is assigned a personal weapon from the armory.

i.m about as happy as saigon on another thread.

 

[Roudy]

I have already provided many links that answer your question. One in particular indicates that as of 2010 an "oath" for Jews and non Jews applying for Israeli Citizenship. Which means, even for citizenship, an oath was not required by law as of 2010. Here is the link:

Loyalty oath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A loyalty oath is an oath of loyalty to an organization, institution, or state of which an individual is a member.
In this context, a loyalty oath is distinct from pledge or oath of allegiance.It is an affirmation by which a person signs a legally binding document or warrant.

On 10 October 2010 the Israeli cabinet approved a loyalty oath bill requiring all future non-
Jews applying for an Israeli citizenship to swear loyalty to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.[20] However, on October 18, current prime minister Netanyahu ordered Justice minister Ya'akov Ne'eman to extend Cabinet-level debate on the bill in order to add amendments which make the loyalty oath universal to both Jewish and non-Jewish immigrants who seek citizenship.[21] This inclusion of Jewish immigrants was supported by the Anti-Defamation League.[22]

 

[Roudy]

ONCE AGAIN!!!​

here, for lipush and roudy...

The IDF General Staff order from 1948 says that every soldier who receives his or her personal weapon will make the following pledge: "I swear and commit to pledge allegiance to the State of Israel, its laws, and authorities, to accept upon myself unconditionally the authority of the Israel Defense Force, obey all the orders and instructions given by authorized commanders, devote all my energies, and even sacrifice my life for the protection of the homeland and liberty of Israel."

Protecting the homeland - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews

I was not a combat soldier, so there is your answer.

Happy now?

Tironut (Hebrew: טירונות*) is the Hebrew term for the recruit training of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

There are different levels of recruit training, and each corps or major unit has their own training program. Upon completing tironut, non-combat recruits are certified as Rifleman 02.[1] Combat recruits must complete Rifleman 03 basic training. Generally, infantry-specific training ranges from Rifleman 05 (combat engineering) to Rifleman 07 (infantry and combat engineers sappers, upon completion of advanced infantry training), whereas armored or artillery corps complete Rifleman 03 training. Elite units such as Sayeret Matkal do not complete a standard basic training course for a rifleman certification and have their own extended training courses which last over one year.

All recruits in the IDF basic training wear the general all-army olive drab beret and get their corps beret upon completion, in a ceremony where the recruits swear in to the IDF. Infantry units and some others such as military police swear in at the Western Wall.

Tironut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i assume that the IDF expects these non-combatant troops to actually fire a rifle to be certified and not just be able to differentiate a rifle from a howiter and i am almost cetain that these rifles are kept an an armory where each soldier is assigned a personal weapon from the armory.

i.m about as happy as saigon on another thread.

Point? This thread has become a waste of time.

 

[sealadaigh]

If you're born in Israel you're not required to take the oath of allegiance. When you're recruited into the military you take the loyalty oath, as one would here in the US.

when the IDF oath given to recruits says "allegiance", i will take them at their word.

Not much difference between allegiance and loyalty. Besides what's the problem here? There is still no indication that foreign recruits are required to take it. And I'm sure those Americans who fought in other foreign armies were required to take oaths as well. Much ado about nothing.

you were the one who made a distinction between a loyalty oath and an oath of allegiance, not i.

 

[Roudy]

when the IDF oath given to recruits says "allegiance", i will take them at their word.

Not much difference between allegiance and loyalty. Besides what's the problem here? There is still no indication that foreign recruits are required to take it. And I'm sure those Americans who fought in other foreign armies were required to take oaths as well. Much ado about nothing.

you were the one who made a distinction between a loyalty oath and an oath of allegiance, not i.

As I indicated those who serve in the US military are also administered an allegiance oath that is similar but not the same as as the Pledge of Allegiance. This would be required of all residents and foreigners who wish to serve in the US military as well. Here it is:

Oaths of Enlistment and Oaths of Office - U.S. Army Center of Military History

Oaths of Enlistment and Oaths of Office

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

I don't understand what the point is anyhow, if the US govt. is allowing Dual / multiple citizenship, they are aware that certain US citizens have taken a pledge of Allegiance to other nations as well. Whether they are serving in their military or not.

 

[MHunterB]

Seal, are you going to cite the legal grounds on which you base your argument for revoking citizenship of Americans who enlist in foreign militaries 'while the US is involved in a war'?

If you are serious about making such a proposal, it's going to have to be per US law - and if my reading of the pertinent law is correct, currently such revocation is rooted in a citizen's intent to relinquish citizenship - which says nothing about dual citizenship. I know my husband served with troops who had dual citizenship. If we are allowing them into our military, I should think it'd be reciprocal.....

It seems to me the ONLY way what you propose could be legal would be if the US were to outlaw dual citizenship across the board. Is that what you are suggesting we need to do?

 

[Roudy]

Seal, are you going to cite the legal grounds on which you base your argument for revoking citizenship of Americans who enlist in foreign militaries 'while the US is involved in a war'?

If you are serious about making such a proposal, it's going to have to be per US law - and if my reading of the pertinent law is correct, currently such revocation is rooted in a citizen's intent to relinquish citizenship - which says nothing about dual citizenship. I know my husband served with troops who had dual citizenship. If we are allowing them into our military, I should think it'd be reciprocal.....

It seems to me the ONLY way what you propose could be legal would be if the US were to outlaw dual citizenship across the board. Is that what you are suggesting we need to do?

Like I said before nowadays citizenships are rarely revoked unless the individual requests it. And of course if they're fighting for the enemy or terrorist organization.

 

[patrickcaturday]

I don't believe the oath is part of the requirements and procedures for non Israelis. I checked.
It will be administered if the individual is requesting citizenship, which in turn will increase the duration of service as well as additional requirements will be requested.

Roudy:
I am getting a little tired of your efforts to disavow your own words !!! So what I did is I went back and found to post that is the crux of the matter as far as I am concerned. So here is a simple question that should take you no more then 5 minutes to answer seeing as how you have already done the leg work. What reference did you check with ??? Please provide us with a link to that reference. I know Seal has already asked this but you don't seem to understan, so as I said I decided to make it simple for you. Your welcome.

If you can't do this then simply say I am wrong and we will move on from there.

I thought that I would bring this forward, because it seems as if Roudy is uncomfortable with the question that I asked. Oh, well maybe this time............

 

[Roudy]

Roudy:
I am getting a little tired of your efforts to disavow your own words !!! So what I did is I went back and found to post that is the crux of the matter as far as I am concerned. So here is a simple question that should take you no more then 5 minutes to answer seeing as how you have already done the leg work. What reference did you check with ??? Please provide us with a link to that reference. I know Seal has already asked this but you don't seem to understan, so as I said I decided to make it simple for you. Your welcome.

If you can't do this then simply say I am wrong and we will move on from there.

I thought that I would bring this forward, because it seems as if Roudy is uncomfortable with the question that I asked. Oh, well maybe this time............

Asked and answered.

 

[sealadaigh]

Seal, are you going to cite the legal grounds on which you base your argument for revoking citizenship of Americans who enlist in foreign militaries 'while the US is involved in a war'?

If you are serious about making such a proposal, it's going to have to be per US law - and if my reading of the pertinent law is correct, currently such revocation is rooted in a citizen's intent to relinquish citizenship - which says nothing about dual citizenship. I know my husband served with troops who had dual citizenship. If we are allowing them into our military, I should think it'd be reciprocal.....

It seems to me the ONLY way what you propose could be legal would be if the US were to outlaw dual citizenship across the board. Is that what you are suggesting we need to do?

there is language in US law that provides for the revocation of the citisenship of naturalised american citisens under certain circumstances. i am suggesting further amended and speciic language.

INA: ACT 349 - LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN

dual citisenship is very complicated. reciprocal is a sweeping term and your example really doesn't apply. i have no intention os discussing dual+ citisenships beyond what i said.

 

[patrickcaturday]

I thought that I would bring this forward, because it seems as if Roudy is uncomfortable with the question that I asked. Oh, well maybe this time............

Asked and answered.

I wonder why Roudy won't answer my question ??? Ok I will make it even easier for him, just give me the post number where you answered it, that will satisfy me, but somehow I think I am out of luck !!!

 

[MHunterB]

Seal, are you going to cite the legal grounds on which you base your argument for revoking citizenship of Americans who enlist in foreign militaries 'while the US is involved in a war'?

If you are serious about making such a proposal, it's going to have to be per US law - and if my reading of the pertinent law is correct, currently such revocation is rooted in a citizen's intent to relinquish citizenship - which says nothing about dual citizenship. I know my husband served with troops who had dual citizenship. If we are allowing them into our military, I should think it'd be reciprocal.....

It seems to me the ONLY way what you propose could be legal would be if the US were to outlaw dual citizenship across the board. Is that what you are suggesting we need to do?

there is language in US law that provides for the revocation of the citisenship of naturalised american citisens under certain circumstances. i am suggesting further amended and speciic language.

INA: ACT 349 - LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN

dual citisenship is very complicated. reciprocal is a sweeping term and your example really doesn't apply. i have no intention os discussing dual+ citisenships beyond what i said.

Naturalized or not is irrelevant. You haven't shared the *legal* justification for making such a change as you wish. It is futile to make suggestions without said legal basis.

Just what are you considering such a heinous 'offense' against the US that a person should have not merely their right to vote, but citizenship itself revoked? A triple murderer who's a born citizen still gets to retain their citizenship while in solitary for life......

I was unaware that dual citizenship is all that complicated: can you provide some info for that? And why should discussing it be a problem? It's actually fairly common here in the US (and in Canada, and some other countries)

 

[ForeverYoung436]

If someone immigrates to Israel and becomes an Israeli citizen, they might want to retain their American citizenship for very practical reasons, like not having a tough time if they want to come back and visit their relatives in America, whom they left behind. My best friend here in New York married a woman from Canada, who didn't get her American citizenship. Shortly after the wedding, she went to Canada for her father's funeral AND WAS NOT ALLOWED BACK IN. The couple, who were practically newlyweds, were separated for 6 months. So retaining American citizenship might be a simple matter of practicality.

 

[MHunterB]

Thanks for the link, Seal!

"voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality"

Per the direct source you gave, the current law is based primarily upon the intent of the citizen in question - which means that it is the intent to relinquish that is the 'essential ingredient' here.

To me that makes perfect sense: the law is basically saying that it recognizes the individual's intent and the US will act in accord with that intent. IE, that citizenship (whether 'born' or 'acquired') is a right of the individual, and requires the absolute most extreme circumstance of treason for the State to intervene.

Having seen nearly a million people have their citizenship in other nations legislated out from under them in the last century - I am more convinced than ever that the US needs to be LESS eager to strip any individual of such an 'inalienable' right.

And yet there is a bill proposed which will evidently do exactly that - 'automatically' revoke US citizenship:

Revoke Citizenship, Then Gitmoize: The Latest Chapter In The Assault on American Civil Liberties - Hit & Run : Reason.com