If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[sealadaigh]

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.

Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.

Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?

Good post.

is it justifiable to bomb a mosque with a weapons cache that is filled with hundreds of worshippers when it could just have easily and effectively been bombed in the middle of the night with no one there.

also, there are many, many cases where hospitals and schools are attacked where there is no weapons cache and no real evidence of a weapons cache. now, i do not use the word "terrorism" exxcept on very rare occasions, but that really is ther essence of terrorism to me and it is particularly heinous because it is being done by a supposedly democratic nation.

no. i am not one of those alarmists who will scream "israel is deliberately targeting civilians", although i am sure some individuaal israelis are, but they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.

in vietnam, you could not just aim a claymore across a path with a trip wire and leave it, even though that path was used by bad guys only. you had to be there in case a kid wandered through. an "i am so sorry for this regretable incident" just doesn't cut it.

and that is not a good question of the same moral category. as usual, zionists make up analogies that do not at all fit the situation.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.

Please dont be absurd, they could nuke or fire bomb Gaza as we did to Germany and Japan in WW2

THe solution is for the USA and the world to impose a settlement.

 

[sealadaigh]

they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.

Please dont be absurd, they could nuke or fire bomb Gaza as we did to Germany and Japan in WW2

THe solution is for the USA and the world to impose a settlement.

no, you don't be absurd. they could not nuke or firebomb gaza because the world would not stand for it.

the solution is for the UN to impose a settlement considering the de facto situation but based upon the original mandated division in UNGA resolution 181.

 

[Aristotle]

Yes, they absolutely do, I am not sure how you could deny this statement. And I am not sure how you could blame Israel for firing back. I dont care how progressive you think you are, if someone is shooting rockets on your town and family and kids, anyone, even the Quakers, would scream at their government to obliterate wherever those rockets are coming from.

Here is another question that is in the same sort of moral category, If we knew the intentions of the terrorist who hijacked the planes on 9/11 before they hit the towers, would it be justifiable to shoot those planes down and save 1000's of civililian lives through sacrificing a couple hundred civilians lives?

Good post.

is it justifiable to bomb a mosque with a weapons cache that is filled with hundreds of worshippers when it could just have easily and effectively been bombed in the middle of the night with no one there.

also, there are many, many cases where hospitals and schools are attacked where there is no weapons cache and no real evidence of a weapons cache. now, i do not use the word "terrorism" exxcept on very rare occasions, but that really is ther essence of terrorism to me and it is particularly heinous because it is being done by a supposedly democratic nation.

no. i am not one of those alarmists who will scream "israel is deliberately targeting civilians", although i am sure some individuaal israelis are, but they are showing a comploete disregard for human life in their choice if targets and that, too, defines a war crime.

in vietnam, you could not just aim a claymore across a path with a trip wire and leave it, even though that path was used by bad guys only. you had to be there in case a kid wandered through. an "i am so sorry for this regretable incident" just doesn't cut it.

and that is not a good question of the same moral category. as usual, zionists make up analogies that do not at all fit the situation.

This is an excellent point....

I think what people often forget here is that the Palestinians consist of millions of people and those who engage in hostile actions with Israel make up a fraction of that. I'm sure many militant Palestinians do indeed stash a cache of weapons in "political sensitive" areas such as a mosque or cramped areas frequented by civilians. Let us continue to assume that maybe there is an intent by these Palestinian militants to frequent dense populated areas in the hope of civilians being attacked let us assume this hypothetical. If such is the case, I believe Israel has a duty as being militarily superior to avoid hitting non-combatants. I believe the zionist of Israel have the same mentality as Hamas. Both groups are trying to indoctrinate the population with this idea that the other side is trying to impede their way of life. People buy into it, and there you have this endless cycle of finger pointing and saber rattling.

 

[Lipush]

Israel should act in accordance with international law.

Period.

of course that would be stupid since the Arabs want to destroy Israel and could care less about international law.

Every single arab wants to destroy Israel?

Maybe the arabs whose kids were killed maybe...

No every single Arab. But most of them.

Have you read the Islamic Hadith?

 

[Lipush]

Let's discuss where my knowledge of Israel comes from....

Since I was a philosophy major I studied extensive readings on Moses Maimonides and "Mish'nah Torah" along with his book "The Guide for the Perplexed"

My political knowlefge comes from following the Mid East crisis since the Clinton Administration. Aside from that I have several friends from Israel who I have befriended. I know one personally who was heavily into Hamas philosophy until he came to school out here. Giving Israel the benefit of doubt I decided one day to venture to a Sheol and see what is Judaism and Israel about (I find Israel walks hand in hand with Judaism) I was turned away both times. I was once told by a Rabbi that its prohibited for me to learn Jewish teachings.


So if a little ole guy like me is turned away because I cannot satisfy my curiousity to learn I can imagine what my Arab friends felt as they shared stories of their loved ones being killed and being discriminated against for being Arab.

Lemme see, hmm I know we give Israel tens of million (if not hundreds) of dollars, majority of it is military based. The aid we give to Palestine is not nearly enough.

What else do I know about Israel? I know its a racist state that is in love with its own victimhood. If I could I'd spit on the wailing wall.

So basically you know jack.

You thought that Israel is all about religion, was turned down by a Rabbi which told you that since you're no Jew there is no reason whatsoever to study Judaism, and based your thinking of listening to the Arab side only.

Yes, as I said before, your opinion is based on ignorance.

You know NOTHING.

Ah yes seeing what you only want to see, such a typical trait that exist in Israel. My opinion is based on a collective experience. I have personal friends who've shared stories of living in Israel. I have seen Jews have this entitlement attitude. I have also read reafings of Jews who feel that Israel does not need America. I have had the unfortunate Rabbi experience and many more.

The only reason why Israel exist is because of the United States. Without U.S intercession, Israel would be at war with not just the Arab countries but also countries the covertly support Arab countries. Israel is not a liked country why don't you understand that? It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is I hate the country.

"such a typical trait that exist in Israel" is such and Anti-zionist crap that holds ignorant people.

You have friends, but you have never seen anything with your own eyes, you've read books and magazines, but never experienced on your own flesh.

"It doesn't matter how much I know about Israel what I do know is that I hate the country".

So you admit yourself, you hate something you know nothing about.

It isn't rare, though.

Most haters have the same problem.

 

[Lipush]

Here is my solution.

The United States threaten Israel with a cut in alliance and reduction of aid if they cannot come to a peaceful solution. As for the Palestinians do the opposite. Ofder aid in the form of medical supplies and reconstruction of buildings under the condition that all hostile oeganizations ceasefire on Israeli settlements.

But this wont happen.

Israel and Palestine are too similar, they want to be right and want to be the biggest victim. Peace will not happen until the sky wizard comes back.

the palestinians already get billions from us.

you might want to rethink that.

israel doesn't really need incentive for peace. they want peace. what they need is a partner who wants peace.

hamas isn't it.

Israel wants peace? Why did Israel and U.S block the Palestinian request for statehood?

Because they did it in spite of the Israeli-Palestinian agreement not to pull the rug under the Israeli feet. Duh.

 

[Lipush]

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.

Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.

It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.

You don't care where Hamas hides missiles?

You're one blinded guy, aren't you! if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.

Israel won't sacrifice its own kids in sake of Hamas' hopes that Israel won't strike! That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!

 

[jillian]

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.

Regardless....So its ok to shoot a missile killing your target and additionally killing someone else.

It is not unavoidable there is a choice. I dont care where hamas hides their weapons dont you guys understand that the more collateral damage you pile up, the more you aid hamas by helping them recruit raging drones.

that is ridiculous. israel has every right to defend itself from rockets. and if hamas doesn't care about it's own people, which, indeed, does violate international law, then it isn't something israel can help.

they're still entitled to get rid of those missiles.

unless you think it's ok for israel to be bombed constantly.

which, and i thank you, proves the double standard of your own biases.

 

[jillian]

That's wicked to put Israel at that position to start with!

we're talking about terrorist supporters.

it's not surprising.

 

[Lipush]

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.

Why is it, you can never provide evidence to prove this?

Here is your evidence.

Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SCjHxrg8X8]Hamas firing rockets from populated area - YouTube[/ame]

 

[sealadaigh]

Hamas hides its missile launchers in schools, mosques and hospitals making killing civilians and children unavoidable.

Why is it, you can never provide evidence to prove this?

Here is your evidence.

Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:

(lipush posted three vids. see prior post above.)

help me out here, lippy...

are any of these legitimate target IDF bases in or near civilian populated areas...

Northern Command
Camp Dotan Pardes Hanna-Karkur
Machne Yarden Golan Heights
Camp Filon Golan Heights
Haifa naval base Haifa
Naval Training Base Haifa
Atlit naval base near Atlit
Prison Six near Atlit
Havat HaShomer Training Base near Ilaniya
Biranit Galilee
Ramat David Airbase near Ramat David
Air Force Technical College Haifa
Michve Alon near Safed
Camp Tzalmon near Karmiel
Camp Gibor near Kiryat Shmona
Ein Shemer Airfield near Ein Shemer
Eilabun Nuclear Facility near Eilabun
Camp Jalame Haifa
Camp Yitzhak Golan Heights
Mount Avital SIGINT base Mount Avital
Château Pèlerin near Haifa
Manachim Airbase Rosh Pinna
Shomera Armory Shomera


Central Command
Camp Anatot near Jerusalem
Camp Bar Lev near Kiryat Malakhi
Camp Glilot near Herzliya
National Defense College near Herzliya
Unit 8200 Headquarters Herzliya
Camp Immanuel near Kiryat Malakhi
Camp Mordechay Maklef Ramat Gan
Camp Rabin Tel Aviv
Camp 1391 near Tel Aviv
Palmachim Airbase near Yavne
Sde Dov Airbase Tel Aviv
Sdot Micha Airbase near Zekharia
Tel Nof Airbase near Gedera
Camp Yigael Yadin Tzrifin
Camp Yaakov Dori Tel HaShomer
Camp Yoav near Kiryat Malakhi
Camp Mota Gur near Kfar Yona
Ofrit base Jerusalem
Bahad 8 Netanya
Hatzor Airbase near Hatzor
Tirosh Nuclear Facility near Tirosh
Sirkin base near Kfar Sirkin
Mitkan Adam near Modi'in-Maccabim-Re'ut
Lod Airbase Lod


Southern Command
Ashdod naval base Ashdod
Eilat naval base Eilat
Camp Haim Laskov near Mitzpe Ramon
Hatzerim Airbase near Hatzerim
Camp Iftach near Zikim
Camp Lahav near Nitzana
Nevatim Airbase near Nevatim
Camp Nitzanim near Nitzanim
Camp Yehoshua near Nitzanim
Ovda Airbase near Eilat
Ramon Airbase near Sde Boker
Bahad 4 near Zikim
Sde Boker base near Sde Boker
Re'im base near Re'im
Nahal Oz base near Nahal Oz
Camp Nathan near Beersheba
Ketziot prison camp near Beersheba
Shizafon base Negev
Southern Infantry Training Base near Beersheba
Julis base near Malakhi Junction
Urim SIGINT Base near Urim

List of Israel Defense Forces bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israel_Defense_Forces_bases

also, i understand that IDF soldiers are allowed to take their weapons home, although i am not aware entirely of the circumstances or conditions.

also, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't the seat of political and military power meet in a populated area, or does the legitimate target knesset meet in the negev?

and exactly what jewish land do you wish to rid of its arab occupants, just so i get a feel for where you are coming from?

 

[MHunterB]

She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like four times the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).

But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'...... never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.

 

[Billo_Really]

Here is your evidence.

Look at the place from which they launch their rockets:

Hamas firing rockets from populated area - YouTube

Hamas firing at Israel, from densely populated areas in Gaza - YouTube

Footage Released by Hamas Further Proves It Fires Rockets from Civilian Areas - YouTube

The first and third videos, are obviously military targets. The second video, doesn't show any rockets. None of the videos, show schools, mosque's or hospitals being used. However, the Goldstone Report did find Hamas was deliberately using weapons close to civilian structures. That's one of the things they're guilty of. But it is not as widespread as Israel (and you) want people to believe. In that first video, Israel has a right to strike back at that target. They do not have a right to raze down the entire neighborhood.

If you really want these rocket attacks to end, you're going to have to deal with the issue of why their fired in the first place. And it has nothing to do with judaism.

 

[Billo_Really]

if Hamas hides the missiles inside schools, kindergardens, houses, hospitals, THEY and only THEY are to be blamed if innocent people are killed.

Wrong! You're the one pulling the trigger. You're the one making the decision to fire. As the "occupier", it is your responsibility to take the necessary precautions, to limit civilian casualties.

You can't target hospitals under any condition. They're off limits!

 

[Katzndogz]

Blow them to smithereens. If terrorists want to hide there, it's their fault. It's called using human shields. It is against every international law. It is a war crime. The proper response is to be sorry to have been forced to take unavoidable acts.

http://www.marshallcenter.org/mcpublicweb/mcdocs/files/college/hshlds-schmitt.pdf

 

[sealadaigh]

Blow them to smithereens. If terrorists want to hide there, it's their fault. It's called using human shields. It is against every international law. It is a war crime. The proper response is to be sorry to have been forced to take unavoidable acts.

http://www.marshallcenter.org/mcpublicweb/mcdocs/files/college/hshlds-schmitt.pdf

well, you may actually want to read the paper that you linked to instead of assuming no one else would because it is so long, which does seem to be the latest trick among zionist supporters to divert and obfuscate the issue at hand.

and, depite the fact that the marshall center is the creation of former secretary of defense and vietnam draft dodger dick cheney, it was actually a not altogether horrible paper. HAMAS was mentioned very little and, even if the worst case scenario of israel's false allegations about human shields did actually happen, it comes as close to condemning israeli action regarding the killing of non-combatants as i have seen from an american governmental body.

perhaps you were too lazy to read it in its entirety.

 

[sealadaigh]

She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like four times the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).

But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'...... never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.

ahhhhh marg, "sans WB and gaza". i will take that as progress.

i have always said jews, on a case by case basis, should be allowed fair compensation for lost property in the lands they fled from. i will note, however, that the circumstances of syrian jews and iraqi jews were vastly different situations.

i really do think it is of imprtance to realise that the jewish communities in the arab states/peoples/nations really did thrive...flourish...up until the advent of zionism and the migration of european jews began. in fact, when anti-jewish pogroms in europe in times prior to WWI broke out, the jews sought safe haven and were well received in arab areas, and particularly in iraq.

now, you can make up all the stories you want about how horribly the arabs treated their jewish populations in your attempts to justify the creation of an artificial state, israel, but that really is all they are, stories.

history is not simple. here are arab peoples, allied with the british to defeat the turks and establish some sort of autonomy, only to have that autonomy given away to jewish europeans who fled to the mideast after WWI. essentially, the otoman turks, in that particular area, were replaced by zionist jews from europe.

 

[Jroc]

She just MIGHT be thinking of the tens of thousands of acres of land which were 'expropriated' by nations such as Syria and Iraq right after the Arab League member nations started passing laws revoking the citizenship of Jews en masse and confiscating everything........what's interesting is that such land parcels total an area something like four times the size of Israel (sans WB & Gaza).

But somehow the only thing those who claim they want 'fairness' suggest is 'the Jews could go back there to live'...... never has the idea of fair compensation been breathed as a possible solution to that problem.

ahhhhh marg, "sans WB and gaza". i will take that as progress.

i have always said jews, on a case by case basis, should be allowed fair compensation for lost property in the lands they fled from. i will note, however, that the circumstances of syrian jews and iraqi jews were vastly different situations.

i really do think it is of imprtance to realise that the jewish communities in the arab states/peoples/nations really did thrive...flourish...up until the advent of zionism and the migration of european jews began. in fact, when anti-jewish pogroms in europe in times prior to WWI broke out, the jews sought safe haven and were well received in arab areas, and particularly in iraq.

now, you can make up all the stories you want about how horribly the arabs treated their jewish populations in your attempts to justify the creation of an artificial state, israel, but that really is all they are, stories.

history is not simple. here are arab peoples, allied with the british to defeat the turks and establish some sort of autonomy, only to have that autonomy given away to jewish europeans who fled to the mideast after WWI. essentially, the otoman turks, in that particular area, were replaced by zionist jews from europe.

The arabs got all the surrounding lands, all of it. One little sliver of land left for the Jews, their ancient home land is all they want. The arabs only want it, because the Jews have it. They even made up a people in order to help them get it, but the bottom line is Israel is there and is going to be there.. Get it? It’s about survival for the Jews and they are strong in Israel so get used to it hater, because when it comes down to survival "all options are on the table"


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwbkXLJ-eQ&]"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwbkXLJ-eQ&][/ame]

 

[oldfart]

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

Jillian, I haven't kept up with the thread, but it looks to me that things have devolved into the ranting and snarkiness you were hoping to avoid. That's a shame.

Jamie