If an EV is in your future, keep this issue in mind

[Robert W]

There is, no way, and never will be a way, to produce hydrogen for use as a fuel, that will not require more energy to be put into that process, than what you can get back out of it by burning that hydrogen.

You're trying to argue for the equivalent of perpetual motion.

You just broke the heart of Toyota auto firm.

 

[Robert W]

Yeah, let's get “smarter”, by continuing to fall for old, disproven scams like that.

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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A water-fuelled car is an automobile that hypothetically derives its energy directly from water. Water-fuelled cars have been the subject of numerous international patents, newspaper and popular science magazine articles, local television news coverage, and websites. The claims for these devices have been found to be pseudoscience and some were found to be tied to investment frauds. These vehicles may be claimed to produce fuel from water on board with no other energy input, or may be a hybrid claiming to derive some of its energy from water in addition to a conventional source (such as gasoline).​

​

Water is fully oxidized hydrogen. Hydrogen itself is a high-energy, flammable substance, but its useful energy is released when water is formed. Water will not burn. The process of electrolysis can split water into hydrogen and oxygen, but it takes as much energy to take apart a water molecule as was released when the hydrogen was oxidized to form water. In fact, some energy would be lost in converting water to hydrogen and then burning the hydrogen because some waste heat would always be produced in the conversions. Releasing chemical energy from water, in excess or in equal proportion to the energy required to facilitate such production, would therefore violate the first or second law of thermodynamics.​

​

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I advise every poster interested in saving the planet (well this is what Biden says anyway) to watch the video where Water is used and separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen and burned like your current vehicle uses gasoline. There are people among us that do not want this video watched.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well, you had to insult.

If the truth of your ignorance is an insult, educate yourself.

Seawater is not a source of hydrogen, not a source of energy.

We need energy to run the cars. Now it's mostly from fossil fuels, which
are a source of energy. They come out of the ground with useful energy
in them. There is no equivalent source of hydrogen. It is all chemically
bound and breaking those bonds takes energy.

Why do you want to use that energy to get hydrogen?

What is the gain you see from that hydrogen? Spell it out.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I advise every poster interested in saving the planet (well this is what Biden says anyway) to watch the video where Water is used and separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen and burned like your current vehicle uses gasoline. There are people among us that do not want this video watched.

Why does wasting energy in that way "save the planet"?

 

[Robert W]

Why does wasting energy in that way "save the planet"?

Any chance you will actually watch the video? So much for you to learn in it. I am not arguing to save the planet, this is what Biden does.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Any chance you will actually watch the video? So much for you to learn in it. I am not arguing to save the planet, this is what Biden does.

If the video is somebody using energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then using that hydrogen and oxygen to do work, I've seen them before.

What is the benefit in doing that?

 

[Robert W]

If the truth of your ignorance is an insult, educate yourself.

Seawater is not a source of hydrogen, not a source of energy.

We need energy to run the cars. Now it's mostly from fossil fuels, which
are a source of energy. They come out of the ground with useful energy
in them. There is no equivalent source of hydrogen. It is all chemically
bound and breaking those bonds takes energy.

Why do you want to use that energy to get hydrogen?

What is the gain you see from that hydrogen? Spell it out.

First of all, there are decent ways to discuss and then there are those who are stunted so resort to insults.
You are fixated on seawater. Toyota is fixated on having a car with a tank filled with water that then is electronically separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen with the Hydrogen burned as a fuel. Really your argument is not with me, but is with Toyota and their engineers.

 

[Robert W]

If the video is somebody using energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then using that hydrogen and oxygen to do work, I've seen them before.

What is the benefit in doing that?

So you did not watch this video. Toyota has invested a lot of money on this. Why not ask them what they see is the benefit.

 

[Robert W]

You gave me the idea that when it comes to energy, you don't have a clue.

Sorry you got that mistaken presumption.

May I point you to a very good book on this topic?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

First of all, there are decent ways to discuss and then there are those who are stunted so resort to insults.
You are fixated on seawater. Toyota is fixated on having a car with a tank filled with water that then is electronically separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen with the Hydrogen burned as a fuel. Really your argument is not with me, but is with Toyota and their engineers.

If Toyota is using electricity to split water and using the H2 and O2 to
power a car, they're wasting energy.

If you feel they aren't, my argument is with you as well.

What problem do they feel they are solving when they do that?

Is the power source for the electrolysis carried in the car, or is it external?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

First of all, there are decent ways to discuss and then there are those who are stunted so resort to insults.
You are fixated on seawater. Toyota is fixated on having a car with a tank filled with water that then is electronically separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen with the Hydrogen burned as a fuel. Really your argument is not with me, but is with Toyota and their engineers.

You are fixated on seawater.

You said, in response to my question, "where are you getting the hydrogen?", that 75% of the planet is ocean. So seawater isn't a source of hydrogen?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Sorry you got that mistaken presumption.

May I point you to a very good book on this topic?

Thanks.

Does the book suggest hydrogen as a solution to our energy needs?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you did not watch this video. Toyota has invested a lot of money on this. Why not ask them what they see is the benefit.

Why not ask them what they see is the benefit.

They aren't on this thread.

What do you see as the benefit?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I advise every poster interested in saving the planet (well this is what Biden says anyway) to watch the video where Water is used and separated into Hydrogen and Oxygen and burned like your current vehicle uses gasoline. There are people among us that do not want this video watched.

From where is the energy coming to crack the water, and why not use that energy more directly to drive the wheels.

 

[Robert W]

Why not ask them what they see is the benefit.

They aren't on this thread.

What do you see as the benefit?

Try using e mail. I suspect they do have a way to contact them. By benefit, it will cause water to be converted to energy as Toyota sees this.

 

[Robert W]

From where is the energy coming to crack the water, and why not use that energy more directly to drive the wheels.

They generate the electricity on the vehicle and use that energy to crack the water and if you truly are interested, watch the video and then try to e mail Toyota to see what they will tell you. They are the experts on this.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

They generate the electricity on the vehicle and use that energy to crack the water and if you truly are interested, watch the video and then try to e mail Toyota to see what they will tell you. They are the experts on this.

How do they generate the electricity?

 

[badger2]

Dec 2023 Toyota Physical and Chemical Research Institute, Aichi, Japan

Understanding the reaction mechanism and kinetics of photocatalytic oxygen evolution on CoOx-loaded bismuth vanadate - PubMed

Photocatalytic water splitting for green hydrogen production is hindered by the sluggish kinetics of oxygen evolution reaction (OER). Loading a co-catalyst is essential for accelerating the kinetics, but the detailed reaction mechanism and role of the co-catalyst are still obscure. Here, we...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Try using e mail. I suspect they do have a way to contact them. By benefit, it will cause water to be converted to energy as Toyota sees this.

You can just admit you don't understand physics, but you posted it because it sounded cool.

Then I'll stop getting frustrated at your ignorance of physics.

Let me know if you need me to give you the middle-school level physics run through
of why this is a silly idea.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How do they generate the electricity?

By burning hydrogen, of course!