If everybody agrees abortion is bad, why is Pro-life so unpopular?

[Care4all]

I don't know why you'd wonder about that. People who don't support homosexuality don't support, by default, them never existing. Let's not turn social conservatives and religious folk into cartoon villains.

Nobody is doubting the personal nature of abortion. It's a personal choice. Then again, smoking meth and shooting heroin are personal choices, too, and we have laws against those. Because it's a decision ultimately only one person can make, that isn't a trump card. It doesn't speak to the impropriety of doing it.

Because much of this abortion debate revolves around an embryo or fetus being equal to a born, living person, let me ask this chrismac, is there any point that the fertilized egg, or zygote, or embryo, or fetus stage of a human's life is NOT equal to a born human being's life?

Let me begin saying that I am against abortion, not when younger and not even later, but within the last 10 years or so, i have evolved with my own personal opinion... through the experiences of others that i have witnessed over the time that passed and also through my own, just plain "growing up", along with having a love and desire for truth to be my guide in my logic and decision making process...

(Let me also say that I am a Christian, a devout Christian so please refrain from any attacks on to me by you or your fellow right wing pro-lifers if you feel the urge! I am not saying you were planning to do such, but this has happened so many times to me on message boards when i ONLY want to truly debate this topic on a Debate message board with other fellow Christians? But anyway, i was just trying to ''cut you off before the pass''....just in case!!! )

many questions come to mind when it comes to taking a pro-life stance regarding our government and regarding the embryo as example, being equal to a born, living, breathing human being....one that has TAKEN its first breath....

to me...even when we make decisions, life threatening circumstance decisions here on Earth, if presented with it, we "weigh" the value of who will be saved from death first and who will be second etc....sub-consciously many times we make this decision and determination of how to act on it...I can give some examples....

During Katrina, there was a Fertility Clinic that was being flooded, the fire fighters got there via boat and began rescuing the workers approaching drowning...AFTER they were done rescuing those humans that were BORN and BREATHING, they risked their lives and went back in to the flooded building and found the containers of frozen embryos and rescued them as well.

but, they did such after the born/breathing humans were rescued first.

So what does this example tell us....

It tells us there is more worth to a breathing/born/living human being than there is to those frozen, embryos imo.

It ALSO tells us that these fire fighters, felt it was worth taking a reasonable chance with their own lives, to continue on with this rescue mission and rescue those embryos, those potential human beings....the human embryos, have WORTH as well, but not the same worth as the living, breathing, human...that's what logic tells me.

Now a very good argument from the other point of view, is that there would be NO BREATHING HUMAN BEING, without ever being a zygote, an embryo, or a fetus...these are stages in a human being's life and a human being can not have a life, without these other stages being ALLOWED to come in to fruition, through a pregnancy....that's a FACT, the truth i sought. (THE fact which actually began me on my path to being against abortion, for the most part).

Here is another example: Here, in America, we followed Common Law in many areas of our law for several hundred years....in common Law, there was no law preventing women, early in their pregnancy from having an abortion.

There was a law that was against abortion after the point of "quickening", (usually when the baby begins kicking) against the woman having the late term abortion and against the doctor or Pharmacist or midwife that helped her go through the abortion....a few hundred years later in the mid 1800's it became a felony for a woman to have an abortion after quickening...due to a MAJOR "religious" movement that was on a quest to make abortion illegal, world wide....a huge lobbying effort of the religious here in the States also was taking place and each state began to make abortion illegal even in the early stages of pregnancy, along with a huge lobbying effort of the AMA....the Medical Doctors who did not like the fact that all of this abortion "business" was going to the pharmacies with a concoction that ended the pregnancy or a midwife, so basically IF they could not have the "business" they were against the business....I say this because later on in our history, when there was lobbying going on to make abortion LEGAL again, it was the AMA as one of the strong supporters of such....because NOW if made legal, the "business" would go to them....in the medical field.

Anyway, I can go on and on with examples where decisions are made, and sometimes they are sub-conscious decisions, that gives worth to human beings at different levels.

Basically, I am arguing the argument of murder, and how a great deal of prolifers LIKE TO CALL abortion murder, therefore women who have them are murderers because they have killed a potential breathing human being.

I disagree with this argument, and give more weight to a breathing human being, along with more weight to a fetus verses a zygote or embryo.

This doesn't mean that i believe women should choose to have an abortion and give no "thought" to it because the embryo is not of the same worth as the the breathing human, like I have said previously, there is no breathing human being without the zygote, embryo and fetus....just that they are not imo, equal to a breathing, living, human being...

The Bible states that God FORMED ADAM, and AFTER he was formed God BREATHED LIFE in to him....

Adam, although formed, did NOT have LIFE, until he was given his first breath.

And humbly to me, this also gives greater worth to the breathing, living Adam than the formed Adam.

So, i don't agree with prolifers who believe that the baby to be, the forming human is EQUAL TO the breathing human being, and murder is taking place.

I do believe that women who abort, kill off their potential offspring....and an offspring is NOT part of their body, it has its own DNA map....in Science, which gives it a potential being status....almost from the very beginning of conception, (not fertilization necessarily, but conception when the egg attaches to the uterus and begins to multiply).

I mean, what else is being done, if it is not a termination of pregnancy, a TOP, as the medical procedure....and terminating is killing or ending a pregnancy, and pregnancy is carrying an offspring....so a TOP is the killing of ones offspring? Hard to get around that....imho.

I think as it stands now, with abortion being a legal choice of pregnant women, that we need to emphasize that this IS a potential human being, a potential child, that is being terminated...and show some needed compassion to those women facing this choice.... I don't agree with calling these women murderers and taking pleasure in flogging them in public as it seems many on the right seem to comfortably engage in....

Care

 

[sky dancer]

I don't know why you'd wonder about that. People who don't support homosexuality don't support, by default, them never existing. Let's not turn social conservatives and religious folk into cartoon villains.

Nobody is doubting the personal nature of abortion. It's a personal choice. Then again, smoking meth and shooting heroin are personal choices, too, and we have laws against those. Because it's a decision ultimately only one person can make, that isn't a trump card. It doesn't speak to the impropriety of doing it.

Actually, that is not true. Some want to wipe homosexuals off the face of the earth. Some favor executing gays and lesbians, making being gay or lesbian a crime requiring imprisonment or a 'disease' requiring 'mandatory treatment'.

Abortion is legal, and a personal choice. Smoking meth and shooting heroin are illegal. Your analogy doesn't work.

Religious fanatics want to undo Roe V Wade, so that doctors who perform abortions will be charged as murderers, women who seek abortions will be tried for the crime of murder and women will die from back alley illegal procedures again.

Some of these folks favor no contraception except the 'rhythm method'.

 

[strollingbones]

the government always controls too much of our personal freedoms and bodies....ie. drinking ages...seat belts etc...abortion is big business no one is gonna stop that

 

[Kenny]

Drugs are bad, that doesn't mean that drugs should be illegal. What someone does with their body is their business. If someone does not wish to give birth to a child, they have the right not to. People should learn how to mind their own business and stay out of the business of others. That's the problem I have with conservative views. Although its ironic, they tend to be big government. They want to agency to outlaw drugs. They want an agency to outlaw gays. They want an agency to outlaw abortion. However, when you open your eyes and see that these issues they wish to outlaw and control are personal issues that the government should not be sticking their head into. I have some of those same issues with liberal, always speaking of the environment and cooperate oppression.

My point is, people should accept that it is none of anyone business if a female decided to forfeit their pregnancy. Its only the business of the impregnated woman and the male who impregnated her. I do agree that fathers should have more rights in regards of unborn children.

 

[eots]

Actually, that is not true. Some want to wipe homosexuals off the face of the earth. Some favor executing gays and lesbians, making being gay or lesbian a crime requiring imprisonment or a 'disease' requiring 'mandatory treatment'.

Abortion is legal, and a personal choice. Smoking meth and shooting heroin are illegal. Your analogy doesn't work.

Religious fanatics want to undo Roe V Wade, so that doctors who perform abortions will be charged as murderers, women who seek abortions will be tried for the crime of murder and women will die from back alley illegal procedures again.

Some of these folks favor no contraception except the 'rhythm method'.

if you did any research into which you speak you would soon discover it is abortionist that have the true intent at exercising eugenics..and homosexuality is not a disease... its a disorder..like depression or bipolar

 

[eots]

Sexual Conversion Therapy

Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical ... - Google Book Search

 

[Father Time]

if you did any research into which you speak you would soon discover it is abortionist that have the true intent at exercising eugenics..and homosexuality is not a disease... its a disorder..like depression or bipolar

Actually it's been taken off the list in the 70s, by people who know about psychology.

Conversion therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And once again, people who can barely govern their own lives, want to make moral decisions for everyone else. Too amusing.

And once again, you project your own disabilities onto everyone else. Too pathetic. In future, please don't assume that just because YOU can't find your own ass with a map and a Native American guide, everyone else must have that problem too.

There's a reason the court said that the rights of government to protect potential life had to be weighed against the woman's right to control her own body. Life exists on a continuum and that was recognized in Roe.

And now you project your own viewpoint onto the law. That's how you understand it, so that must be what the decision was based on, right? The ugly truth is that the reason the courts made the decisions in Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton was politics. Pure and simple. All these other highfaluting smokescreen explanations came afterward, when it was necessary to justify really, REALLY bad law.

Now, if all the folk who think government should be drowned in a bathtub will get government out of our bedrooms, life would be beautiful.

Now if all the people who think the government should shut the fuck up about killing babies would stop trying to inject it into EVERY other damned thing under the frigging sun, life might not be beautiful, but it would be a hell of a lot more intelligent. I'm pretty sure we could all do with a lot less hypocritical caterwauling about "smaller government" from people who think the government should buy their toilet paper for them and THEN wipe their asses.

Not to mention that I would doubt the numbers and accuracy of the OPINION PIECE from the Weekly Standard.

If God Almighty appeared in front of you and gave you the statistics carved on a stone table with His own finger, you would doubt them . . . unless they agreed with what you wanted to believe.

Perhaps you could give us an actual contradiction of the stats cited?

Oh...and Allie, yeah, when the article is pages back and you make no reference to it in your post, I'd think you should post the link again.

I think you should bestir your lazy butt and scroll back.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So 10 cells is human? 2 cells? when? And is it immoral to freeze the fertilized eggs when there are extras? Or do you want to force women to have 10/11 kids at a time should they end up with that many successful fertilizations?

So tell us: exactly what number of cells present actually constitutes a human? And where, exactly, did you find the definition citing the specific number of cells necessary?

By the way, Dr. Welby, the reason they implant multiple fertilized eggs in in vitro - not 10-11 at a time, though - is because most of them die on their own. In fact, usually ALL of them die completely on their own, which is why the procedure has to be performed multiple times to produce a successful pregnancy. Completely aside from your utter blurring of two different and separate subjects together, you might try being informed before you open your flapping gob.

Is an egg a chicken because it may be a chicken one day?

No, it's a chicken because it's ALREADY a chicken. It is what ALL chickens are at that stage of their lives. And again, humans and chickens - being massively different types of animals who don't even belong to the same class - would be you confusing two very, VERY different subjects with each other.

You think sex is only for making babies. How sad. Explains so many of your anger issues.

You apparently think sex is about entertainment. How sad. Explains so much of your bitterness.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wasn't aware all abortions involve a scalpel and a...what is it...a vacuum?


you keep talking about the life of a fetus. is a fetus alive and when does an egg become a fetus? as far as your compromise...who gives a fuk, surely not me. I am not looking to see if you want a medal or a chest to pin it on. I am only looking for coherent argument from you or anyone. Minus that, I enjoy going to the zoo. want a peanut?...

Some abortions involve saline solution instead of sharp implements. I'm not sure how the equivalent of burning the fetus with acid makes you feel any better, but I hope this clarifies for you.

As for your second paragraph, did you flunk high school biology? Were you out playing pocket pool behind the boys' gym that period every day? By any scientific definition, OF COURSE a fetus is alive. He is as much a living, thriving organism as any simple, microscopic organism is. Do you question whether or not bacteria or viruses or amoebas are alive, simply because they can't be seen with the naked eye?

An egg is a cell belonging to a woman's body, analogous to the sperm cell coming from the man's body. When the egg and the sperm combine, they form a single organism, known as an embryo. The definition of an embryo is "the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception" (I cut that down for the sake of brevity, FYI). After that point, the term "fetus" is used. As you can see, "embryo" and "fetus" do NOT denote separate types of beings from a human, but merely different stages of growth and development, just as terms like "infant" and "adolescent" do.

I hope this has helped to fill in the blanks left by your primary school education.

 

[Cecilie1200]

really? jealous and envy all in one package. boy, whatever did I do to enjoy this gift? I am truly a blessed man.

Like I said, as long as YOU can keep saying so, you won't have to care that no one else ever does.

 

[Cecilie1200]

"making people be more circumspect in their behavioral choices."

and how do you propose doing this?

you are getting to be a pathetic appendage around my scrotum. jump off.

I think we all know what the pathetic appendage near your alleged scrotum is.

How do you make people more circumspect about their behavior choices? If you seriously don't know the answer to this question, then there's a pathetic appendage on top of your shoulders as well.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Originally Posted by DevNell View Post
I wasn't aware all abortions involve a scalpel and a...what is it...a vacuum?


you keep talking about the life of a fetus. is a fetus alive and when does an egg become a fetus? as far as your compromise...who gives a fuk, surely not me. I am not looking to see if you want a medal or a chest to pin it on. I am only looking for coherent argument from you or anyone. Minus that, I enjoy going to the zoo. want a peanut?...

Some abortions involve saline solution instead of sharp implements. I'm not sure how the equivalent of burning the fetus with acid makes you feel any better, but I hope this clarifies for you.

it makes me feel all warm inside.

As for your second paragraph, did you flunk high school biology? Were you out playing pocket pool behind the boys' gym that period every day? By any scientific definition, OF COURSE a fetus is alive. He is as much a living, thriving organism as any simple, microscopic organism is. Do you question whether or not bacteria or viruses or amoebas are alive, simply because they can't be seen with the naked eye?

did I flunk what??
don't get your panties all wet yet. all I did was ask a question and you are performing emotional and verbal gymnastics because you think...

methinks it was obvious I was referring to being alive as in being human since it is the human nature of the fetus that people are saying sets it apart from another animal. is it a human being is what was inferred by is it alive? I apologize if again you need everything spelled out for you. I'll remember what a dolt I am dealing with the next time I reply. I'll try and make it more of a sophomoric exercise for you. you can grade me on it all after each day. okay?


sigh

An egg is a cell belonging to a woman's body, analogous to the sperm cell coming from the man's body. When the egg and the sperm combine, they form a single organism, known as an embryo. The definition of an embryo is "the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception" (I cut that down for the sake of brevity, FYI). After that point, the term "fetus" is used. As you can see, "embryo" and "fetus" do NOT denote separate types of beings from a human, but merely different stages of growth and development, just as terms like "infant" and "adolescent" do.

I hope this has helped to fill in the blanks left by your primary school education.

you can't be this much a bore in real life. what is it you do when you are not wowing me with your intellectual prowess?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

really? jealous and envy all in one package. boy, whatever did I do to enjoy this gift? I am truly a blessed man.

Like I said, as long as YOU can keep saying so, you won't have to care that no one else ever does.

I must warn you, my bite is worse than my bark.


woof!

 

[Cecilie1200]

One word (okay, 2):

The Netherlands.

Started out with abortion, then assisted suicide...then euthanasia without consent...and finally the extermination of babies with birth defects or disorders at the discretion of the DOCTORS not the parents.

Eugenics.

Oh, you and your silly logic.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Oregon does.
Most states don't have legislation which dictates what the cut off date is for abortion. I've been in abortion clinics with women who were HUGE with babies who were obviously there to get an abortion. One looked to be at least 8 and possibly further along.

Apparently, my state's cutoff is somewhere before the 21st week of pregnancy. I wouldn't know at all - because why would I want to? - except that when I went in for amniocentesis in my 21st week, the doctor wanted to know why I was bothering, since I wouldn't be able to have an abortion if something was wrong, anyway. Yeah, because that's the ONLY reason I would want information concerning my baby's health.

 

[Cecilie1200]

S'matter? Only the anti-choice males allowed to have an opinion about what goes on in someone else's uterus?

Govern your own life.

Only the pro-killing males pompously intone about how they have no right to say anything about a "woman's right to choose" because they will never be pregnant, and then hold forth for three teeth-numbing pages on the opinion about abortion they just got done claiming they have no right to have.

It's called "hypocrisy". REAL hypocrisy, as opposed to the illiterate liberal misunderstanding of the word.

 

[dilloduck]

Apparently, my state's cutoff is somewhere before the 21st week of pregnancy. I wouldn't know at all - because why would I want to? - except that when I went in for amniocentesis in my 21st week, the doctor wanted to know why I was bothering, since I wouldn't be able to have an abortion if something was wrong, anyway. Yeah, because that's the ONLY reason I would want information concerning my baby's health.

Being a doctor doesn't automatically make one reasonable or even caring for that matter.

 

[Cecilie1200]

DevNell's primer for the genetically clueless and the rest of the riff raff of the cyberworld _______________________________

clue number one: It's a public message board.

some of your comments want to make me cry. why?


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because if you are only a fraction as hurt and lonely as you come across I just can't imagine you having to live a life that way. I do believe in assisted suicide.

Oh, spare me. I'm hurt and lonely because I think you're a hypocritical, dickless cad whose only interest in "women's rights" is sounding politically correct in order to get lucky? Nice try, Sparky, but try it on some leftist chick who's too stupid to know when she's being gamed, not intelligent conservative women.

I repeat, don't tell me about how you'll never be pregnant, so you can't tell women what to do about abortion, and then babble endlessly about the opinion you just renounced. YOU said it, and I'm holding you to it. I'm a woman, and you're not, so I get to have a say on abortion, and you don't.

Take your penis and toddle away.

 

[Cecilie1200]

btw, since you brought IT up let me clue you in. Being a penis-bearer is not my problem. It is the load I have to carry.

Yeah, and I'm thinking it's not a very heavy or even noticeable load. I'm thinking I've carried heavier lint.