“If God does not exist, then all things are permitted.”

[BluePhantom]

Everyone else is also good
That is the problem with your OP

Me and God against everyone else on USMB?
I'm still good

You are no more good than anyone else on this board

Oh? Did I say that? I think not...

Then explain the purpose of your OP

Pretentious....those who do not believe in my God cannot be as moral?

And arrogant.

I am still waiting to hear why it is that you get charged with two counts of murder if you kill a pregnant woman since a fetus is not legally a life. I think it was you I asked that of wasn't it? I am patiently waiting

 

[Slyhunter]

Threw an empty soda can out my car window. Littering, who gives a fuck, I'm going to hell anyhow because I don't believe in God so what does it matter what additional bad things I do?

 

[Moonglow]

You also use the name of God to represent Jesus, yet Jesus never claimed to be his Father in Heaven,

Oh yes He did. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" seems pretty clear to me. He states it as well in several other places. I have heard this argument so many times on these boards and I just don't get it. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

His statement meant that he and his Father are in equality..or consensus....
Third, Jesus referred to Himself as God’s Son and to God as His Father (John 10:36–37).

No, He wasn't saying they were in consensus. "Ego kai ho pater hen esmen" Literally "I and the Father one we are". Furthermore, "31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:31-33, NIV)

AND

"38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” (John 30:38, NIV)

he is not talking about equivalence. He is saying "I am God". Come on man

"Ego kai ho pater hen esmen"
Firstly, Jesus did not say "I am the Father", only that He and his Father "are" one. The Greek reads "Ego kai ho pater hen esmen"(lit. "I and the Father one we are"), Simply the verb ("are") esmen is plural in the Greek, hence Jesus did not say, "I and the Father am [emi] one" , but rather, " I and the Father are [esmen] one." When modalism first emerged, Christian theologians brought out this grammatical point in their apologetic refutation. For example, Tertullian grammatically refutes the John 10:30 made by modalist of his day:
He says, "My Father which gave them to me, is greater than all", adding immediately, " I and my Father are one." Here, then, they take their stand, too infatuated, nay, too blind, to see in the first place that there in this passage an intimation of Two Beings- " I and my Father," then that there is a plural predicate , "are," - inapplicable to one person.... They argue that this passage teaches that Jesus unquestionably claims to be his own Father .
In the same way, early polemicist and defenders of Christian Orthodoxy, Hippolytus, corrects the grammatical error of the first known modalist, Noetus of Smyrna:
If, again, he(Noetus) notes his[Christ's] own word when he said, " I and the Father are one," let him attend to that fact, and understand that he did not say, " I and the Father am one, but are one.." For the word are, is not said of one person, but it refers to two persons, and one power.(emphasis added)
Lastly, there is another grammatical element, which is overlooked by the Oneness believers. The word translates "one"(hen) is the neuter gender. In Greek, the neuter (hen) indicates unity of essence, not absolute identity. If Jesus wanted to communicate that He was himself was the Father, He would have certainly used the masculine heis..

A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology

 

[BluePhantom]

You also use the name of God to represent Jesus, yet Jesus never claimed to be his Father in Heaven,

Oh yes He did. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" seems pretty clear to me. He states it as well in several other places. I have heard this argument so many times on these boards and I just don't get it. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

His statement meant that he and his Father are in equality..or consensus....
Third, Jesus referred to Himself as God’s Son and to God as His Father (John 10:36–37).

No, He wasn't saying they were in consensus. "Ego kai ho pater hen esmen" Literally "I and the Father one we are". Furthermore, "31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:31-33, NIV)

AND

"38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” (John 30:38, NIV)

he is not talking about equivalence. He is saying "I am God". Come on man

"Ego kai ho pater hen esmen"
Firstly, Jesus did not say "I am the Father", only that He and his Father "are" one. The Greek reads "Ego kai ho pater hen esmen"(lit. "I and the Father one we are"), Simply the verb ("are") esmen is plural in the Greek, hence Jesus did not say, "I and the Father am [emi] one" , but rather, " I and the Father are [esmen] one." When modalism first emerged, Christian theologians brought out this grammatical point in their apologetic refutation. For example, Tertullian grammatically refutes the John 10:30 made by modalist of his day:
He says, "My Father which gave them to me, is greater than all", adding immediately, " I and my Father are one." Here, then, they take their stand, too infatuated, nay, too blind, to see in the first place that there in this passage an intimation of Two Beings- " I and my Father," then that there is a plural predicate , "are," - inapplicable to one person.... They argue that this passage teaches that Jesus unquestionably claims to be his own Father .
In the same way, early polemicist and defenders of Christian Orthodoxy, Hippolytus, corrects the grammatical error of the first known modalist, Noetus of Smyrna:
If, again, he(Noetus) notes his[Christ's] own word when he said, " I and the Father are one," let him attend to that fact, and understand that he did not say, " I and the Father am one, but are one.." For the word are, is not said of one person, but it refers to two persons, and one power.(emphasis added)
Lastly, there is another grammatical element, which is overlooked by the Oneness believers. The word translates "one"(hen) is the neuter gender. In Greek, the neuter (hen) indicates unity of essence, not absolute identity. If Jesus wanted to communicate that He was himself was the Father, He would have certainly used the masculine heis..

A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology

Well Dr. Dalcour, whom you quoted and did not identify as a quote, makes a good argument regarding the grammatical use of the Greek "esmen". Unfortunately, like you, he does not address the surrounding verses which I quoted above that clearly and indisputably contradict his position. One must keep in mind that the author of John, whoever he was, did not write using very good grammatical Greek. John is full of what we might call "street Greek". It was not the high rhetoric used by scholarship, but a far more casual form of Greek where saying things similar to the modern "it more better" was not unusual.

Dr. Dalcour also overlooks that the Bible in its earliest form had been copied and re-copied so many times that grammatical errors were commonplace and the spelling was even worse. It is an error to focus on the specific grammatical form of a single word in order to intrerpet a passage of text while ignoring the context of the entire chapter and expect to make a convincing point. The surrounding text makes it clear what Jesus was saying. I notice Dr. Dalcour didn't address that and neither have you.

It's a clever argument that would work on someone that is not educated in such matters, but to others his argument is not terribly convincing.

 

[Moonglow]

The following passage also confirms Jesus' position.
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Normally one does not say he is the Son of God if he is the Father....

 

[Moonglow]

37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

Again He is confirming that He has a Father and He(Jesus) is not him...

 

[Bonzi]

Threw an empty soda can out my car window. Littering, who gives a fuck, I'm going to hell anyhow because I don't believe in God so what does it matter what additional bad things I do?

.... this is along the lines of what I was talking about in my initial post.... God wants us to obey laws, as long as they are not in direct conflict with His laws or if they would cause you to sin.

 

[Bonzi]

37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

Again He is confirming that He has a Father and He(Jesus) is not him...

1. John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . "
   

 

[HUGGY]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

 

[Bonzi]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

When I was sixteen I remember thinking, if there is no God it does not matter what I do. So I shot some birds with an air rifle. Then one of them was wounded but not killed and it hid from me under a bush. I saw it looking at me and I realized it did matter. I had cruelly and pointlessly injured a harmless little bird and I felt bad.
It taught me that even if there is no God and no punishment for anything we do we should still have compassion.

Trying to stick to the subject, not everyone has compassion. There are many many people that are mentally ill, selfish to the point of not caring about others etc. Ultimately, we need God because we are incomplete without him, but, for people that don't "naturally" have compassion and love for others, they need God to change them from the inside out.

Not everyone is able to 'self police' - but like I said, we need God not to keep us in line, but to give us REAL life.

 

[HUGGY]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

When I was sixteen I remember thinking, if there is no God it does not matter what I do. So I shot some birds with an air rifle. Then one of them was wounded but not killed and it hid from me under a bush. I saw it looking at me and I realized it did matter. I had cruelly and pointlessly injured a harmless little bird and I felt bad.
It taught me that even if there is no God and no punishment for anything we do we should still have compassion.

Trying to stick to the subject, not everyone has compassion. There are many many people that are mentally ill, selfish to the point of not caring about others etc. Ultimately, we need God because we are incomplete without him, but, for people that don't "naturally" have compassion and love for others, they need God to change them from the inside out.

Not everyone is able to 'self police' - but like I said, we need God not to keep us in line, but to give us REAL life.

That's why we have courts and prison.

 

[Bonzi]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

Some would debate that if there was no God we'd make one up.
Many actually believe that IS the case presently.

 

[Bonzi]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

When I was sixteen I remember thinking, if there is no God it does not matter what I do. So I shot some birds with an air rifle. Then one of them was wounded but not killed and it hid from me under a bush. I saw it looking at me and I realized it did matter. I had cruelly and pointlessly injured a harmless little bird and I felt bad.
It taught me that even if there is no God and no punishment for anything we do we should still have compassion.

Trying to stick to the subject, not everyone has compassion. There are many many people that are mentally ill, selfish to the point of not caring about others etc. Ultimately, we need God because we are incomplete without him, but, for people that don't "naturally" have compassion and love for others, they need God to change them from the inside out.

Not everyone is able to 'self police' - but like I said, we need God not to keep us in line, but to give us REAL life.

That's why we have courts and prison.

There is bad behavior that is harmful and hurtful that is legal.

 

[HUGGY]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

Some would debate that if there was no God we'd make on up.
Many actually believe that IS the case presently.

It worked for the Jews and the Romans.

 

[HUGGY]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

When I was sixteen I remember thinking, if there is no God it does not matter what I do. So I shot some birds with an air rifle. Then one of them was wounded but not killed and it hid from me under a bush. I saw it looking at me and I realized it did matter. I had cruelly and pointlessly injured a harmless little bird and I felt bad.
It taught me that even if there is no God and no punishment for anything we do we should still have compassion.

Trying to stick to the subject, not everyone has compassion. There are many many people that are mentally ill, selfish to the point of not caring about others etc. Ultimately, we need God because we are incomplete without him, but, for people that don't "naturally" have compassion and love for others, they need God to change them from the inside out.

Not everyone is able to 'self police' - but like I said, we need God not to keep us in line, but to give us REAL life.

That's why we have courts and prison.

There is bad behavior that is harmful and hurtful that is legal.

I understand that. It is called the GOP.

 

[Bonzi]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

Some would debate that if there was no God we'd make on up.
Many actually believe that IS the case presently.

It worked for the Jews and the Romans.

It's easy to make up a God, you get to set the rules for "Him" or "Her"....

 

[Campbell]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

Doesn't really make any difference. People live their lives exactly the way they would if there was no such thing as religion. Look at Christian families who drive Escalades and live in gated communities. Then look at the scripture which defines the fate of rich people:

…23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"…

AND

Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now imagine the simple fact that Jesus Christ did rise from the dead and still many were not persuaded even then. Many do not hear or listen --- to this very day!

Simple fact....raised from the dead?? Man whatever you've been drinking is sure working. Nobody has ever been raised from the dead. Anybody who believes that 2000 year old fairy tale scribed by people who believed in witches and thought the earth was flat desperately needs a dose of reality!

 

[Campbell]

Threw an empty soda can out my car window. Littering, who gives a fuck, I'm going to hell anyhow because I don't believe in God so what does it matter what additional bad things I do?

I'll save you a seat. I'm 81 years old so I'll probably arrive there before you.

Dr. Einstein nailed it:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

~posted in his obituary in the NY Times~

 

[ChrisL]

Threw an empty soda can out my car window. Littering, who gives a fuck, I'm going to hell anyhow because I don't believe in God so what does it matter what additional bad things I do?

Utterly ridiculous. Are you saying that you NEED a fear of God in order to be a good person? Do you have no sense of morality or compassion or intelligence?

 

[Taz]

... agree or disagree? .... and why?

View attachment 48991

Nonsense. But it would sure be a lot easier to be an atheist.

Some would debate that if there was no God we'd make one up.
Many actually believe that IS the case presently.

Why? You have any proof that it isn't?