If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and just, then why do ignorant kids suffer?

[Momanohedhunter]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Nice picture there. Its from a 1970's group called EST. They ran a project called "the hunger project". It was shut down because they could not explain ware all there food money went. If you really want the answer, you would look at a Bible, or have a face to face sit down with a man of faith. Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action. You are not asking to get an answer, you are asking so you can get props on a political message board. I pity you.

 

[Ravi]

sigh...so what you are saying, Emily, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that God created the child and allowed the child to suffer as a teaching tool for the rest of humanity.

Hi Reva: You don't have to see it or say it that way.
In fact, if it adds more ill will and division, then it is better NOT to,
if the point is to solve social problems causing this kind of suffering.

Whether you want to attribute to God's will, or to human nature, to us who are looking at this poor child and discussing and learning ideas from it.

THAT is what is happening.

You don't have to say or believe that "God created the child for this purpose"
(Who can ever prove that?)
But we CAN agree to the fact that this injustice motivates change for the better.

But we could reach an agreement, by cause and effect, by the way the human conscience works, that the effect of the unjust suffering and starvation of this child and others in poverty
DOES tend toward change in seeking social justice to end this kind of thing!

Whatever you want to attribute that patten to

Human nature
natural laws
divine laws by God if you believe that

The immediate cause and effect is the SAME in reality
That part of the process, we might agree on:

The child suffers unnaturally and unjustly
Other people witness this
And are motivated to change something toward resolution
because we feel compassion by conscience

We know something is WRONG with this picture.
And we feel we can do something more to correct whatever we blame.

If we blame different things, that's fine, we can fix different things!
We will still make the world a better place, however we frame
the cause and effect we are working within to try to solve
the problem as we see it. We don't even have to agree
on all of it, to participate in the SAME process of improving society toward social justice.

So if we stick to where we agree, we can do more to work
effectively and in cooperation to change things for the better.

The tendency toward good will in human nature/conscience
is universal, whether we call that God's will or not.
We are motivated by love, that is how we are designed to respond.

I'm not seeing it that way to be difficult or divisive, just trying to understand it. And I'm not sure that what you've posted changes the facts as I stated them.

 

[Valerie]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Nice picture there. Its from a 1970's group called EST. They ran a project called "the hunger project". It was shut down because they could not explain ware all there food money went. If you really want the answer, you would look at a Bible, or have a face to face sit down with a man of faith. Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action. You are not asking to get an answer, you are asking so you can get props on a political message board. I pity you.

This ^^^

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Nice picture there. Its from a 1970's group called EST. They ran a project called "the hunger project". It was shut down because they could not explain ware all there food money went. If you really want the answer, you would look at a Bible, or have a face to face sit down with a man of faith. Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action. You are not asking to get an answer, you are asking so you can get props on a political message board. I pity you.

This ^^^

No, of Missionary's feeding those kids and digging wells for them. Ware is Buddha, Allah or Obama? For that matter, ware the hell are you ? Why dont you send $1,000 bucks over there and feed some kids ? Why not adopt one ? Haw about you get our president out of the other three wars he started and send some troops over to help them out ?

 

[JohnA]

Too bad you are so focused on attempting to deny God, instead of trying to understand what that means. No problem. If you're going to attack or deny something don't you think you should know what you're denying and or attacking?
Learn about the christian concept of free will, and God's word and maybe you'll get an understanding. By the way it has everything to do with cause and effect.

Are you going to answer my question?
Do you really contend that the child had free will?
Did he have the power to choose his current condition?
What about children born with Down's Syndrome? I guess that the children's free will led them to that.

I don't think you understand what is meant by free will. It basically means that God is not all seeing because he doesn't have the time or interest so he gave us free will. In other words, free will lets God off the hook.

L et me understand what you just said and get it clear in my head

you believe in a god who is
all powerfull
all knowing
all seeing
is everywhere at once
kind
loving


and he doesnt care , hasnt got the time and cant be bothered to relieve the suffering of his * children *

if he does,nt give a fuck about you why the fuck should you care about him ?

get real and lay of the coolaid

 

[emilynghiem]

According to doctrine no dilemma exists, mankind is responsible for all the suffering we endure because of the one aspect of God that purports he cannot go back on his word. Once it is spoken there is no taking it back, doesn't mean he's not just, doesn't mean he doesn't care it just means he put the solution in our hands and due to his nature cannot take it back. At least that's the way I understand it.

hes a FUCKING god aint he he can do what he likes.he is answerable to nobody so he can take it back
your bullshit gets more silly every post

Dear JohnA and Ringel05:
I would say yes and no.
Ringel: God is still responsible for creating humans with free will but without full maturity to apply reason and free will perfectly. So that is how I understand why God would have to send Jesus to remedy what mankind is not able to fix on our own. We are not capable of forgiving perfectly and unconditionally, so we rely on God's divine help to forgive what we cannot. Yes, it is our responsibility, up to our free will to ASK for help and strength for forgiveness. That part only works if we choose freely, but the timing at which we learn and understand the steps toward this, that is also governed by God's will. We cannot always help if we do not understand. So God is responsible in that sense, for making human conscience to be imperfect, biased by emotional reactions from the past, etc.

JohnA: God cannot violate the laws of physics and energy by which the universe is created and operates. That would just be unnatural, and there is no need to do anything unnatural. So there are some things God has no reason to do, and will not do, regardless.

As for changing laws or plans, I do believe there is room for change within the greater plan that basically is unchanging. For example, you could view the introduction of Jesus as changing the ways that humans relate to the universal laws. In the OT these laws were given to be obeyed by faith, and if not the consequences are recorded there as disastrous death and destruction in the older Bible history; in the NT the laws are followed by love and freedom to choose, so there is redemption and restorative justice. That is different from before. Just enforcing laws by punishing wrong is not enough. But by teaching mercy and correction for wrongs, where injustices are made right and relations restored, then people can understand higher spiritual reward and peace that comes with living by justice and charity, and breaking the cycle of retribution from the past that failed to establish law.

You can say if God is omnipotent and unchanging,
then this plan had to be known from the start.
Knowing humanity would fall, into such a vicious cycle that could not be broken out of
by man's efforts alone, that divine intervention would be required (through Jesus) to bring forgiveness and correction to end all the suffering going in circles.

But still it shows that the human relation or perception with God changes,
at least on our side, from a God of retributive justice where people take turns
accusing and excusing one another by the "letter of the law" to
a God of love and restorative justice, living by the "spirit of the law" which is
love of truth and charity for others, that restores relations and rights past wrongs
through forgiveness, correction, and restitution to bring healing and harmony on earth.

We don't have to agree on all things, on where the changes took place,
in order to accept the changes necessary in life to make progress toward peace.
We just have to be open to forgive the places where we have conflicts or differences,
so we can focus on points where we agree and can work together more effectively.

Thank you both for your
contributions here. I appreciate
your input and sharing so honestly how you see things.

 

[emilynghiem]

you believe in a god who is
all powerfull
all knowing
all seeing
is everywhere at once
kind
loving


and he doesnt care , hasnt got the time and cant be bothered to relieve the suffering of his * children *

if he does,nt give a fuck about you why the fuck should you care about him ?

get real and lay of the coolaid

Dear JohnA: the way you describe God above, no I don't believe in a God that is like that.
The God I believe in is constantly working, through the natural forces of life and healing, to overcome obstructions that cause imbalance and suffering.

If you read books on healing such as
* The Healing Light by Agnes Sanford
* HEALING by Francis MacNutt
These books explain how natural life energy and healing is constantly present.
And it is just a matter of identifying and removing the obstructions to natural healing,
in order to receive more such energy in life into our bodies and minds (and in this
case our relations also) to restore the natural state of health intended and designed for.

If you don't believe change is happening fast enough,
and the suffering is disproportionate and unjust,
this will make you think no such God could do this because that is cruel!

Only if you have faith that the end result FAR OUTWEIGHS
the suffering it cost to get there, then you would be giving
thanks even in advance, as the Christians do on faith.

The more you can forgive the past, the more you can see
ideas of the future in store, that are more positive anyway.

The less you forgive the past, you stay stuck there and
block your mind from understanding the better future
that all this is heading towards. I get like that also.

I am very realistic and idealistic at the same time.
I have to constantly forgive setbacks and injustices
in order to move forward to the point where these will be paid back.

Believing in justice is all faith based.
There is no real proof that "peace and justice for all" is where we are heading
as a human race, until we get there and it is established
and witnessed by all. I am one of those people who believes that peace/justice
is not the end but the journey, you create it by living it, by establishing
it in all relations so that collectively it spreads everywhere worldwide as the norm.

I believe this is the equivalent of taking Jesus into your heart
and living the laws by conscience, except I do this using natural
laws of democracy in the Constitution and not just laws in the Bible.

It takes the same amount of faith and forgiveness to live by either laws.
You can either stay in the past, with the old ways of retributive justice,
or work toward resolution in the spirit of restorative justice which I believe is the key.
So this is my understanding of what it means to
connect with God's universal truth and laws through Christ Jesus.
It is the central connection in the human conscience
where the individual experience and local relationships
are one in spirit with the whole of humanity and social institutions,
collectively over time and space. The local and the global are joined as one in agreement
and spiritual harmony.

The God that leads to this by love of truth, justice, charity for all humanity.
That is the understanding of God I believe in.
There is no "love" of anything negative or punitive in that process.
Even where there is suffering, such as the labor and pain of childbirth,
the joy of bringing new life exceeds the suffering it took to get there.
That pain is forgotten, and is reduced the more we learn about the
spiritual process so that we work with nature and not against it.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Are you going to answer my question?
Do you really contend that the child had free will?
Did he have the power to choose his current condition?
What about children born with Down's Syndrome? I guess that the children's free will led them to that.

I don't think you understand what is meant by free will. It basically means that God is not all seeing because he doesn't have the time or interest so he gave us free will. In other words, free will lets God off the hook.

L et me understand what you just said and get it clear in my head

you believe in a god who is
all powerfull
all knowing
all seeing
is everywhere at once
kind
loving


and he doesnt care , hasnt got the time and cant be bothered to relieve the suffering of his * children *

if he does,nt give a fuck about you why the fuck should you care about him ?

get real and lay of the coolaid

As I said, ware you, and what have YOU done ? The photo is awful, yet you and others will point to it and say God does not care or that he does not exist, yet, do NOTHING to remedy the issue. You are not asking to find out the biblical answer, you are asking for rep. and it is disgusting.

 

[Valerie]

Nice picture there. Its from a 1970's group called EST. They ran a project called "the hunger project". It was shut down because they could not explain ware all there food money went. If you really want the answer, you would look at a Bible, or have a face to face sit down with a man of faith. Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action. You are not asking to get an answer, you are asking so you can get props on a political message board. I pity you.

This ^^^

No, of Missionary's feeding those kids and digging wells for them. Ware is Buddha, Allah or Obama? For that matter, ware the hell are you ? Why dont you send $1,000 bucks over there and feed some kids ? Why not adopt one ? Haw about you get our president out of the other three wars he started and send some troops over to help them out ?

For all you know I've adopted 3 of them and sent them a million bucks. And for all I know you never dug any wells either, so calm yourself down jackass.

I wish I could take my rep back.












( ^^^ God in action )

 

[mattskramer]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action.

No. I would see people, doing things, who believe in God.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I ask how there can be suffering on Earth if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, and just God. I am told that there is free will and that people must choose to believe in Jesus. If that is the case, then what becomes of children who suffer and die without having been given information about Jesus? More importantly, why would such a God allow innocent children to suffer in agony and pain such as this kid did?

Such a child does not have free will in the practical sense. He probably did not even get a chance to learn about Jesus. Luckily he survived.

Now, I have been to Nigeria twice on a mission trip to dig wells so kids like that can have clean water to drink. I notice you dont have any pictures of that, but if you did you would see God in action.

No. I would see people, doing things, who believe in God.

Not from our prospective. God or lack there of is not responsible for that child's condition. People are. the post is nothing more then a rep fishing trip.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I will retract some pissy attitude and post this. Its the best answer I have seen, and it still leaves more questions for some. Here it is if you want to read it.


This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.

The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith.

All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14:1).
Photo copyrighted.

Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”, must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.

That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!

This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.

We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.

“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

“Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?” (Romans 9:20).

We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

Elderly woman in wheelchair. Photo copyrighted. The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

This “bondage of corruption,” with the “whole world groaning and travailing together in pain” (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain” (Revelation 21:4).
Jesus on the cross. Click here to read about Jesus. (Illustration copyrighted)
Learn about how much Jesus Christ suffered

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly “exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, “for the present,” He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

Hope it helps.

 

[Ringel05]

Okay. I think that I understand your point. Yet, according to the Christian doctrine, is god just and fair? If such is the case, then is it just and fair that the child should suffer due to the acts of its ancestors? Wouldn't a just God intercede for the sake of the innocent child? That is a dilemma.

According to doctrine no dilemma exists, mankind is responsible for all the suffering we endure because of the one aspect of God that purports he cannot go back on his word. Once it is spoken there is no taking it back, doesn't mean he's not just, doesn't mean he doesn't care it just means he put the solution in our hands and due to his nature cannot take it back. At least that's the way I understand it.

hes a FUCKING god aint he he can do what he likes.he is answerable to nobody so he can take it back
your bullshit gets more silly every post

My bullshit?? I'm only stating what Christian doctrine says. Now if you want to see really silly bull shit find the closest mirror, oh and plug your nose when you look, all the rest of us do when you're around.

 

[Avatar4321]

hes a FUCKING god aint he he can do what he likes.he is answerable to nobody so he can take it back
your bullshit gets more silly every post

No. God can't do anything. He can't do evil or He would cease to do be God. Or rather He chooses not to do evil. He cannot go back on His word because He is honest. He has enacted laws and those laws have consequences. Because we violate those laws we justly need to suffer the consequences of those laws. Justice cannot be robbed or God would cease to be God.

But God provided a solution to this dilemna. He provided a plan where a Mediator could willingly intervene and take upon Himself the pains and sufferings of the world. This Mediator is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Because Christ, being innocent, suffered beyond that of any other person, the Father could deny Him nothing. And those who seek relief at the hand of Jesus Christ are given it.

The problem many of you have in understanding how and why God would allow suffering and pain to be in the world is because you look at the question through mortal lenses. You look at it with the presumption that at the end of this life, there is nothing.

But that's not true. Because of the Atonement and the Resurrection of Christ, all things we suffer will be compensated. Though we suffer pain and death, we will be restored to life through the Resurrection of the Dead. Though we suffer from sin, we can recieve joy and forgiveness through the Atonement.

When we understand that life is eternal, the pain we suffer becomes insignificant. We can die painful deaths, but we will be restored to life no matter how we died or when we died. This is guarenteed to all men.

Thus the pain we feel not only becomes endurable, but also becomes a way we can be taught of higher and more important things in life. Pain is one of the greatest teachers in life. I've learned incredible things through my pain and i think that I may not realize how much I can learn or even learn all my lessons about what I experienced during my mortal probation.

Anyone who exercises understands that the pain we feel because of our workout helps breakdown the muscles and rebuild them stronger. Why should we think any other pain in life is different?

I read one of the most powerful passages on suffering in my life over 10 years ago:

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (D&C 122: 5-8)

We have a Savior specifically so we can endure the suffering and pain in our lives. He gave His life for it. And He will give us joy even in the midst of pain. It's amazing to experience.

 

[JohnA]

According to doctrine no dilemma exists, mankind is responsible for all the suffering we endure because of the one aspect of God that purports he cannot go back on his word. Once it is spoken there is no taking it back, doesn't mean he's not just, doesn't mean he doesn't care it just means he put the solution in our hands and due to his nature cannot take it back. At least that's the way I understand it.

hes a FUCKING god aint he he can do what he likes.he is answerable to nobody so he can take it back
your bullshit gets more silly every post

Dear JohnA and Ringel05:
I would say yes and no.
Ringel: God is still responsible for creating humans with free will but without full maturity to apply reason and free will perfectly. So that is how I understand why God would have to send Jesus to remedy what mankind is not able to fix on our own. We are not capable of forgiving perfectly and unconditionally, so we rely on God's divine help to forgive what we cannot. Yes, it is our responsibility, up to our free will to ASK for help and strength for forgiveness. That part only works if we choose freely, but the timing at which we learn and understand the steps toward this, that is also governed by God's will. We cannot always help if we do not understand. So God is responsible in that sense, for making human conscience to be imperfect, biased by emotional reactions from the past, etc.

JohnA: God cannot violate the laws of physics and energy by which the universe is created and operates. That would just be unnatural, and there is no need to do anything unnatural. So there are some things God has no reason to do, and will not do, regardless.

As for changing laws or plans, I do believe there is room for change within the greater plan that basically is unchanging. For example, you could view the introduction of Jesus as changing the ways that humans relate to the universal laws. In the OT these laws were given to be obeyed by faith, and if not the consequences are recorded there as disastrous death and destruction in the older Bible history; in the NT the laws are followed by love and freedom to choose, so there is redemption and restorative justice. That is different from before. Just enforcing laws by punishing wrong is not enough. But by teaching mercy and correction for wrongs, where injustices are made right and relations restored, then people can understand higher spiritual reward and peace that comes with living by justice and charity, and breaking the cycle of retribution from the past that failed to establish law.

You can say if God is omnipotent and unchanging,
then this plan had to be known from the start.
Knowing humanity would fall, into such a vicious cycle that could not be broken out of
by man's efforts alone, that divine intervention would be required (through Jesus) to bring forgiveness and correction to end all the suffering going in circles.

But still it shows that the human relation or perception with God changes,
at least on our side, from a God of retributive justice where people take turns
accusing and excusing one another by the "letter of the law" to
a God of love and restorative justice, living by the "spirit of the law" which is
love of truth and charity for others, that restores relations and rights past wrongs
through forgiveness, correction, and restitution to bring healing and harmony on earth.

We don't have to agree on all things, on where the changes took place,
in order to accept the changes necessary in life to make progress toward peace.
We just have to be open to forgive the places where we have conflicts or differences,
so we can focus on points where we agree and can work together more effectively.

Thank you both for your
contributions here. I appreciate
your input and sharing so honestly how you see things.

I see things as they are not thou some mytic old time fiction book .

but YES we do need to make progress towards peace .

It would help considerably if all religions shut the fuck up and stopped fighting with each others killing there selves and others to proclaim which one is right
most of the wars since time began have had a religious undertone .

intolerance is rife in the main religions thats not going to change it hasnt for centuries why should it now .

you say that god sent devine intervention thou jesus to end bring forgivenes and end all suffering
THAT of course ONLY APPLIES if you believe in jesus how bout the million s *he created * that dont believe in him do they still suffer . so does that mean anybody who suffers is somehow not a good or godly person ?

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy
why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ?
do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .

 

[Montrovant]

For an all powerful, all knowing creator of the universe and everything, god is apparently easy to know. I often find it amazing how easily people feel they can know what god can or cannot do, what he will or will not do, what he thinks and how he works. Whatever the religion, many people seem to believe they understand this being that is supposed to be so vast, so powerful, and so outside the rules of the universe under which we live. In fact, god is usually remarkable human.

I can get believing there is a god or some sort of higher power. What I cannot understand is believing an all powerful creator would be remotely like humans.

 

[Avatar4321]

For an all powerful, all knowing creator of the universe and everything, god is apparently easy to know. I often find it amazing how easily people feel they can know what god can or cannot do, what he will or will not do, what he thinks and how he works. Whatever the religion, many people seem to believe they understand this being that is supposed to be so vast, so powerful, and so outside the rules of the universe under which we live. In fact, god is usually remarkable human.

I can get believing there is a god or some sort of higher power. What I cannot understand is believing an all powerful creator would be remotely like humans.

Why is it so hard to believe that an all powerful, all knowing Creator can make Himself known to His children?

As Man now is, God once was; as God now is, Man can become.

 

[Caroljo]

QUOTE]you say that god sent devine intervention thou jesus to end bring forgivenes and end all suffering
THAT of course ONLY APPLIES if you believe in jesus how bout the million s *he created * that dont believe in him do they still suffer . so does that mean anybody who suffers is somehow not a good or godly person ?

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy
why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ?
do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .[/QUOTE]

Well, the ones that don't believe in him that suffer would not be "godly" people, but that doesn't mean they aren't good people. There are many good people that just don't believe in Him. But the Godly people will go through the same trials as the ungodly. The difference is, we have God to help us through. If you don't believe then you will never know the experience of going through trials with Gods help...it's UNBELIEVABLE! Well, it would be unbelievable to someone that doesn't believe, so it's hard to explain.

God can change anything He wants...and i'm sure there's been events that He has changed. But many times he lets it happen. People don't turn to God when they are having "good" times, the majority turn to Him when they're having trouble. It's the trials that you go through that end up bringing glory to Him when he's helped you through it.

Praying is our way of communicating with Him. He always listens! But sometimes you have to sit silently and listen to Him too. No, you're not going to hear a voice talking in your ear when he speaks, and sometimes you do wonder if He is speaking at all. He ALWAYS answers prayers...just sometimes not as quickly as you would like, and sometimes the answer isn't WHAT you want, but no matter what, His answer is always the right one.

 

[edthecynic]

you say that god sent devine intervention thou jesus to end bring forgivenes and end all suffering
THAT of course ONLY APPLIES if you believe in jesus how bout the million s *he created * that dont believe in him do they still suffer . so does that mean anybody who suffers is somehow not a good or godly person ?

lastly if god cant or wont interfer with natural events caused by physics or energy
why do you bother to pray ?? if he wont or cant change things whats the point ?
do you still talk if the person you are addressing isnt listening .

Well, the ones that don't believe in him that suffer would not be "godly" people, but that doesn't mean they aren't good people. There are many good people that just don't believe in Him. But the Godly people will go through the same trials as the ungodly. The difference is, we have God to help us through. If you don't believe then you will never know the experience of going through trials with Gods help...it's UNBELIEVABLE! Well, it would be unbelievable to someone that doesn't believe, so it's hard to explain.

God can change anything He wants...and i'm sure there's been events that He has changed. But many times he lets it happen. People don't turn to God when they are having "good" times, the majority turn to Him when they're having trouble. It's the trials that you go through that end up bringing glory to Him when he's helped you through it.

Praying is our way of communicating with Him. He always listens! But sometimes you have to sit silently and listen to Him too. No, you're not going to hear a voice talking in your ear when he speaks, and sometimes you do wonder if He is speaking at all. He ALWAYS answers prayers...just sometimes not as quickly as you would like, and sometimes the answer isn't WHAT you want, but no matter what, His answer is always the right one.

Even God cannot change the past.
- Agathon

 

[edthecynic]

I will retract some pissy attitude and post this. Its the best answer I have seen, and it still leaves more questions for some. Here it is if you want to read it.


This is one of the most difficult questions for Christians to answer.

The “problem of pain,” as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith.

All true science and history, if rightly understood, support the fact of God. This evidence is so strong that, as the Bible says: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14:1).
Photo copyrighted.

Most atheists, therefore, without any objective evidence on which to base their faith in “no God”, must resort finally to philosophical objections. And this problem of suffering is the greatest of these.

That is, they say, how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!

This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that “good” is a higher order of truth than “bad”.

We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.

“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

“Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?” (Romans 9:20).

We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.
There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

Elderly woman in wheelchair. Photo copyrighted. The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

This “bondage of corruption,” with the “whole world groaning and travailing together in pain” (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain” (Revelation 21:4).
Jesus on the cross. Click here to read about Jesus. (Illustration copyrighted)
Learn about how much Jesus Christ suffered

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! “Christ died for our sins” (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly “exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, “for the present,” He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

“For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

Hope it helps.

First of all, one could hardly expect C S Lewis to present "Atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith." But even though the "problem of pain" is not the most potent argument against Christianity, Lewis' answer was basically "how dare you question something you are too stupid to understand, God is always Right, and all people created in the image of God are natural born sinners." Pretty feeble rationalizations if you ask me, but good enough for the brainwashed.