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Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?
So... what was your point?
To waste your time.
Obama didnt do shit, of course. Congress does these things. The Dums in Congress, after 4 years of pissing and moaning about the "tax cuts for the wealthy" went ahead and extended them. Obama merely signed the legislation.
LOl...
OK, there we have it folks. Obama's not responsible for the stimulus package. He didn' do it.
Rabbi, you know the tax cuts were in the stimulus package...right?
Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?Yeah!!!!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VOE6JRfDs8]YouTube - ‪Rachel Maddows Factually Shows GOP hypocrisy - Vote against stimulus and policy they support‬‏[/ame]
Ahh yes. When a liberal runs out of ideas he/she resorts to hurling insults.You can believe that if it makes you feel better. It's just not true.
The economy continues to sputter. People are not finding work. The numbers of new applicants for unemployment keeps rising. Consumer confidence is still at decades lows. The price of gas has people shortening or cancelling vacations.
I suppose though that on planet liberal, everything is just peachy.
Well, after participating on this board for the last year or so, it seems to me that those that support Mr. Obama have yet to see a single flaw in any move he has made.....so to them, all is peachy. We have a President with a perfect record.
that's because you're an asshole who can't read.
No, you have your mind made up and refuse to see logic even though it is right in front of you.no. When the educated find jobs or start businesses at that point they become productive taxpaying citizens.Education doesn't create wealth?
So high school graduates and college graduates make more money than high school dropouts just by coincidence??
Holy fuck you're mentally handicapped. Don't reproduce please.
BTW, if all you conservatives agree with this moron and don't think he's shit filled imbecile, and you all believe that education doesn't create wealth, doesn't add any value...
...why do you want government vouchers to educate your kids?
EH? How about an answer for that one?
Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?
JRK.
Capital only invests in job creation when there is sufficient demand. Indeed: when the middle class has money to spend, capital does miraculous things to capture that money (including adding jobs and investing in innovative technology).
When the middle class lacks money (because wages, benefits, and entitlements have been cut in order to enable tax cuts), capital must find different investment opportunities for its surplus. This is what we saw in the post-Reagan, low wage, globalized economy: surplus capital, lacking an incentive to add jobs, was increasingly diverted into speculative instruments (hedge funds, derivatives, etc), which builds dangerous risk into financial markets. This is what we saw during the Clinton and Bush years where the over-concentration of surplus capital ("profits") created by the Reagan tax policies so clearly lacked sufficient investment opportunities in the real economy, which is why it took flight into tech IPO's and mortgage derivatives. [If you lower the compensation of your workers, you are destroying their ability to buy your products. If they can't buy your stuff, you stop investing in innovative products for the real economy of hard goods and services, and you seek returns in phantom Wall Street instruments, which award returns based on unreal levels of speculation (-please study the Tech IPOs of the Clinton years, or the credit default swaps of the Bush years). The Bush tax cuts didn't go to the creation of American jobs; Bush had the worst job creation in the last 1/2 century. Those tax cuts went to speculative Wall Street garbage, and the result was catastrophic. Study the "Greenspan Put" so you can stop wasting our time with talk radio bumper stickers]
Meanwhile, consumers, lacking the wages and benefits to buy things, were forced to increasingly rely on credit cards to hold up the consumption economy. When they maxed out their credit cards, they turned to their homes for money. When their homes crashed, they were finally forced to stop consuming. And what happens when nobody goes into shopping malls and buys garbage? Spiraling job loss. [we built a consumption economy from the surplus middle class wealth enabled by postwar wage/benefit policies. Then Reagan got rid of the wage/benefit policies, and freed capital to go to the 3rd world for sweat shop labor, without which Walmart would not exist. So we entered the mid 90s with a consumption economy that required high levels of middle class spending, but we enacted tax, labor, and entitlement reforms which undercut their ability to spend. So we created debt gimmicks to sustain consumption. We used everything from credit cards to our houses to compensate for the fact that the historic surplus on top was not trickling down to middle class demand. And at precisely the moment that we need demand-centered policies, we still have a group of talk radio morons parakeeting economic theories which made sense 30 years ago.
Reaganomics, which was absolutely necessary 30 years ago, has been over-applied. It no longer has the same utility because the problems are different. Capital has nothing solid to invest in (because it lowered the wages a.k.a. buying power of consumers), and the consumer lacks the money to buy even basic staples without unholy amounts of debt.
When surplus capital has nowhere to go but dangerous speculation, you need policies which bolster demand so you can attract investment to the real economy. You need another tool besides supply side economics, which assumes sufficient demand
You keep repeating tired talking points about not taxing job creators. Your criticism of Keynesian economics are old. This no longer 1970 when Labor's advantage over capital created massive efficiency and incentive issues for American capital. Today, however, we have a different problem. American corporations are sitting on more surplus than at any time ever. Their effective tax rate is lower than any advanced industrial nation (corporations like GE and Exxon don't pay taxes; they are heavily subsidized. They own both parties. The wealthiest Americans don't pay income tax; they make their money in Capital Gains, which means they pay far less the middle class. Your posts never mention any of this stuff. Please broaden your information sources).
Giving corporations more tax breaks won't lead to more jobs or innovation. Why? Because you cannot fix a demand problem with tax breaks any more than you can solve inflation by lowering interest rates. 30 years of lowering middle class wages, benefits, and education/health/retirement programs has left them unable to consume. You can't solve this problem the way Reaganomics had always tried to solve it: credit cards for the serfs and tax breaks for the Lords. This recipe has destroyed America. Unless you find a way to recapitalize demand like you recapitalized the suppliers in the 80s, the current problem will only get worse.
Please don't get your economic theory from talk radio. You have been mislead.
I have no idea why you would think I get my Theories from talk radio. You may dis agree with what I say, but talk radio has nothing to do with what I say
To start with corporations do not pay taxes, people do. This should clear up any ideas anyone would have as to where you and I sit in this conversation
Let me make sure you understand this. When a corporation is born, it is a piece of paper. When it dies it is a piece of paper.
When the people that run that corporation sell there product, they add enough cost to the bottom line to cover all taxes. This would include items such as the federal sur tax on fuel of 0.18 cents per gallon
The product in this country such as GM has labor
it has legacy
the it has taxes
when Ford sold there product, they had enough cash to cover there losses, GM did not. Part of that was the tax GM had to pay in the years it made profit
Surplus monies are not being spent for so many reasons I am not sure where to start, but I will try
To start with what sector do we invest in?
If we decide to invest it in the oil shale, wait, that sector is off limits. never mind.
What about the auto industry, never mind BHO inc owns that now.
Toyota would have grown our economy
Ford would have
Honda would have
We went thru 80 billion in cash we did not have instead and the "corporation" is still broke
How about we invest in better refineries that are closer to the oil shale we are extracting? never mind.
What about we open a business that supports these new sectors? and maybe we could build some motels near these areas where these new jobs are going to be exploding like Colorado and Utah and Kentucky.
I am sure we could also invest in the equipment it takes to locate these deep oil deposits that are all over this country. Never mind
How many other sectors out there are just as dead?
the seafood industry comes to mind. they have Killed it in Florida
Allowing millions of acres of Timber to rot and cause major forest fires in our federal lands. places in which could be leased to grow the very things we need to feed people, after the harvest of the timber, done smart, done right, done in a way that people can make a profit
we can grow foods
we can raise livestock
We could grow the corn needed to make Ethanol
then we refine, then we distribute, etc... etc...etc...
The bottom line is I could go on for ever. There is crude in Florida, lots of it. But we would rather have empty houses that dump solid waste into our aquifers when there not empty than a real sector that will for ever be there.
Your quick to judge a man that knows allot more about what were talking about than most people you will ever meet. Money being invested the way you state has no where else to go
If it did that is where it would be. People put money to risk the way some did in the banking sector and in the private market should be in prison
Thats not Obama's fault
Clinton's
Bushes
Reagan's
where do you start
how far do you go
Lying to a banker to borrow is a felony
Loaning money to someone who is lying once, OK, 1,000,000 times, is a felony
Now let us talk about job creation
from 80-08 we created 47 million jobs
from 80-10 the population grew 82 million (legal)
you Liberals keep talking about this job creation monster as though this 5% UE run with no added sectors was suppose to keep going
The housing industry collapsed there is nothing there to replace it
And until the housing market returns, (it's not coming back). Obama gave away 800 billion dollars in months and we still lost 6 million jobs
You think taxes had anything to do with that?
Simply put there is no where for the money to go right now
Thats not Reagan's fault
Taxes created the wealth, regulations and yes taxes has it no where to go
Remember
I sell you a product, I have to add those cost to the bottom line to cover those taxes, some we are going to pay even if we lose the shirt off of our back
Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?
Not off-hand. What was the alternative stimulus and who proposed it?
Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?
Not off-hand. What was the alternative stimulus and who proposed it?
The GOP stimulus plan was the same plan that Obama continued.
They socialized the Banksters debts.
Anyone remember what the Republican alternative stimulus plan was?
Not off-hand. What was the alternative stimulus and who proposed it?
The GOP stimulus plan was the same plan that Obama continued.
They socialized the Banksters debts.
Whats interesting about Dr. Mirons critique is that he shows how the stimulus was a failure even if you take for granted liberal assumptions about economic policy (such as Keynesian economic theory), since it was so badly designed and executed that it failed to achieve its goals, spending wastefully while failing to revive the economy. Indeed, the stimulus was so poorly tailored to the economy (and the goal of reducing unemployment) that Miron concludes that it was designed to reward politically connected constituencies and special-interest groups, like public-employee unions, rather than being focused on economic stimulus.
Other Harvard economics professors like Robert Barro have also criticized the stimulus package. Barro called it the worst bill that has been put forward since the 1930s. Former Obama economic advisor Martin Feldstein, a Harvard professor who is a big believer in stimulus packages in principle, said that the stimulus designed by Obama and congressional Democrats was poorly done
Much stimulus money has been wasted. It has gone to prisoners and dead people, wasteful welfare spending, abandoned bridges to nowhere, and unnecessary government buildings. The stimulus subsidized foreign green jobs and wiped out jobs in Americas export sector.
The stimulus is not the road to economic recovery. Its the problem, not the solution, writes Nobel Prize winning economist Vernon L. Smith. Other Nobel Laureates like Gary Becker have also criticized the stimulus package. 200 economists signed a statement publicly opposing the stimulus package in an ad published in the Washington Post and New York Time
Harvards Jeffrey Miron Explains Why the Stimulus Package Failed
Whats interesting about Dr. Mirons critique is that he shows how the stimulus was a failure even if you take for granted liberal assumptions about economic policy (such as Keynesian economic theory), since it was so badly designed and executed that it failed to achieve its goals, spending wastefully while failing to revive the economy. Indeed, the stimulus was so poorly tailored to the economy (and the goal of reducing unemployment) that Miron concludes that it was designed to reward politically connected constituencies and special-interest groups, like public-employee unions, rather than being focused on economic stimulus.
Other Harvard economics professors like Robert Barro have also criticized the stimulus package. Barro called it the worst bill that has been put forward since the 1930s. Former Obama economic advisor Martin Feldstein, a Harvard professor who is a big believer in stimulus packages in principle, said that the stimulus designed by Obama and congressional Democrats was poorly done
Much stimulus money has been wasted. It has gone to prisoners and dead people, wasteful welfare spending, abandoned bridges to nowhere, and unnecessary government buildings. The stimulus subsidized foreign green jobs and wiped out jobs in Americas export sector.
The stimulus is not the road to economic recovery. Its the problem, not the solution, writes Nobel Prize winning economist Vernon L. Smith. Other Nobel Laureates like Gary Becker have also criticized the stimulus package. 200 economists signed a statement publicly opposing the stimulus package in an ad published in the Washington Post and New York Time
Harvards Jeffrey Miron Explains Why the Stimulus Package Failed
But but...The Stimulus saved us from Depression II! The world would have ended if we hadn't passed it!
No amount of data will persuade the ignorant Left that Obama's domestic policies have been complete and total failures.
No, you have your mind made up and refuse to see logic even though it is right in front of you.no. When the educated find jobs or start businesses at that point they become productive taxpaying citizens.
So high school graduates and college graduates make more money than high school dropouts just by coincidence??
Holy fuck you're mentally handicapped. Don't reproduce please.
BTW, if all you conservatives agree with this moron and don't think he's shit filled imbecile, and you all believe that education doesn't create wealth, doesn't add any value...
...why do you want government vouchers to educate your kids?
EH? How about an answer for that one?
You stated that "education creates wealth"....
It does not. "Take the horse to the water".
It is the result of what one does with their education that creates wealth.
BTW, it was the Washington DC school district that offered tax breaks or school vouchers to allow inner city kids to go to better schools. Obama cancelled that program.
Most folks who support school vouchers are minority parents who are disgusted with shitty public schools that are riddled with disciplinary and crime problems.
Quite frankly I want government to leave education to the private sector. That's why I support charter schools. I think the US Dept of Education should cease to exist and all of it's employees permitted to seek work in the private sector. The federal government has no business meddling in the affairs of local school districts.\
Now if you want to get into a insult pissing contest you WILL LOSE. I will bury you. I advise you to take care in your tone.
This is a discussion. Not a bar room brawl.
No, you have your mind made up and refuse to see logic even though it is right in front of you.So high school graduates and college graduates make more money than high school dropouts just by coincidence??
Holy fuck you're mentally handicapped. Don't reproduce please.
BTW, if all you conservatives agree with this moron and don't think he's shit filled imbecile, and you all believe that education doesn't create wealth, doesn't add any value...
...why do you want government vouchers to educate your kids?
EH? How about an answer for that one?
You stated that "education creates wealth"....
It does not. "Take the horse to the water".
It is the result of what one does with their education that creates wealth.
BTW, it was the Washington DC school district that offered tax breaks or school vouchers to allow inner city kids to go to better schools. Obama cancelled that program.
Most folks who support school vouchers are minority parents who are disgusted with shitty public schools that are riddled with disciplinary and crime problems.
Quite frankly I want government to leave education to the private sector. That's why I support charter schools. I think the US Dept of Education should cease to exist and all of it's employees permitted to seek work in the private sector. The federal government has no business meddling in the affairs of local school districts.\
Now if you want to get into a insult pissing contest you WILL LOSE. I will bury you. I advise you to take care in your tone.
This is a discussion. Not a bar room brawl.
Ok, imbecile, if education doesn't create wealth, why does anyone care that our foreign competitors might be doing a better job educating their young people.
Why do you care if DC has shitty schools if education doesn't create wealth?
No, you have your mind made up and refuse to see logic even though it is right in front of you.So high school graduates and college graduates make more money than high school dropouts just by coincidence??
Holy fuck you're mentally handicapped. Don't reproduce please.
BTW, if all you conservatives agree with this moron and don't think he's shit filled imbecile, and you all believe that education doesn't create wealth, doesn't add any value...
...why do you want government vouchers to educate your kids?
EH? How about an answer for that one?
You stated that "education creates wealth"....
It does not. "Take the horse to the water".
It is the result of what one does with their education that creates wealth.
BTW, it was the Washington DC school district that offered tax breaks or school vouchers to allow inner city kids to go to better schools. Obama cancelled that program.
Most folks who support school vouchers are minority parents who are disgusted with shitty public schools that are riddled with disciplinary and crime problems.
Quite frankly I want government to leave education to the private sector. That's why I support charter schools. I think the US Dept of Education should cease to exist and all of it's employees permitted to seek work in the private sector. The federal government has no business meddling in the affairs of local school districts.\
Now if you want to get into a insult pissing contest you WILL LOSE. I will bury you. I advise you to take care in your tone.
This is a discussion. Not a bar room brawl.
Ok, imbecile, if education doesn't create wealth, why does anyone care that our foreign competitors might be doing a better job educating their young people.
Why do you care if DC has shitty schools if education doesn't create wealth?
No, you have your mind made up and refuse to see logic even though it is right in front of you.
You stated that "education creates wealth"....
It does not. "Take the horse to the water".
It is the result of what one does with their education that creates wealth.
BTW, it was the Washington DC school district that offered tax breaks or school vouchers to allow inner city kids to go to better schools. Obama cancelled that program.
Most folks who support school vouchers are minority parents who are disgusted with shitty public schools that are riddled with disciplinary and crime problems.
Quite frankly I want government to leave education to the private sector. That's why I support charter schools. I think the US Dept of Education should cease to exist and all of it's employees permitted to seek work in the private sector. The federal government has no business meddling in the affairs of local school districts.\
Now if you want to get into a insult pissing contest you WILL LOSE. I will bury you. I advise you to take care in your tone.
This is a discussion. Not a bar room brawl.
Ok, imbecile, if education doesn't create wealth, why does anyone care that our foreign competitors might be doing a better job educating their young people.
Why do you care if DC has shitty schools if education doesn't create wealth?
Because education is a necessary but not sufficient condition to create wealth. Doubtless that's too subtle for your limited brain.
But Spoon is correct that the fedgov's involvement in education has made things worse, not better. Abolish the Dept of Education.
