If I Shake my Fist at the Sky

[Pop23]

To each his own!!

Same here Joe, I'm a believer, but not a preacher.

then you are in a very small club on this site!

I'll argue my case, but I would end up arguing with both sides

There's one thing about me that's hard for most to understand. I am not a mutually exclusive thinker. I find grey areas make life more interesting.

 

[JoeB131]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God. So even if you accept Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "Kind of" right, half the world's population has it completely wrong.

And what abut the rest of the universe?

 

[Pop23]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God. So even if you accept Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "Kind of" right, half the world's population has it completely wrong.

And what abut the rest of the universe?

That only stands if you believe that all believers aren't actually worshiping the same god, but that politics and differences in language kept them apart early on.

Or not

 

[AVG-JOE]

Same here Joe, I'm a believer, but not a preacher.

then you are in a very small club on this site!

I'll argue my case, but I would end up arguing with both sides

There's one thing about me that's hard for most to understand. I am not a mutually exclusive thinker. I find grey areas make life more interesting.

You got that right Pop!! The Monkey who stops learning might as well be dead.

 

[daws101]

Same here Joe, I'm a believer, but not a preacher.

then you are in a very small club on this site!

I'll argue my case, but I would end up arguing with both sides

There's one thing about me that's hard for most to understand. I am not a mutually exclusive thinker. I find grey areas make life more interesting.

life is mostly gray areas.

 

[hortysir]

is that a dodge or do have a condition?

Are you really that thick?
Snook is a fish.
I don't need your Red Herring.
I wasn't talking to you and, besides, you didn't answer the question either

That is how people who do not want to deal with the question react.

For my part, I understand the question, and I applaud you for taking the bull by the horns. I guess I would approach it differently.

I would say, God says that every man will answer for himself at the last judgemnt. HOw will you answer? Will you stand on your own merits, hoping that your good is good enough to impress God? Or will you realize, along with me, that we are all hopeless wretches at the core, and throw yourself at the feet of Jesus, who suffered eternal torments so you could escape eternal torments?

Yup

 

[hortysir]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God. So even if you accept Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "Kind of" right, half the world's population has it completely wrong.

And what abut the rest of the universe?

I always say that some people are going to be right and a LOT of other people are going to be REEEEALLYYYYY surprised

 

[hortysir]

1. Yes. This thread is all about me and my choice to believe that the God of Abraham is fictitious in spite of the ancient stories.

2. Of course God is required to reveal himself to me! How else are we supposed to have a 'relationship'?

Have you ever, honestly, opened yourself up to having that relationship?

"Seek and ye shall find"

Oh yeah... been there, done that. I thumped a Bible for several years and, truth be told, I mourned a bit when I finally admitted to myself that I didn't believe any more.

I strayed for a while, too, brother.

I pray that He reveals Himself to you, in His time and in a fashion as to guide you.

In the meantime, eat drink and be merry, for........

 

[AVG-JOE]

I appreciate the faith, but there is no longer hope for me and the God of Abraham.

It's not a question of straying from practice, nor is it just a question of not believing. There is no hole to fill.

I do believe. I believe that the ancient stories are fiction and we owe our existence to Time, Luck & a warm, wet Mom.

 

[Smilebong]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God. So even if you accept Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "Kind of" right, half the world's population has it completely wrong.

And what abut the rest of the universe?

That is a little bigger question than I have time to answer on a forum while I am at work. BUt it is a good question.

 

[turzovka]

If I shake my fist at the sky and declare to God that I am impressed with neither his presence nor his proofs to date, and I challenge the aforementioned God to kill me now or forever be regarded and described by me as fictitious, does that prove anything?

It proves to me that you have not given the matter much serious thought.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wee...AL3_IHACA&sqi=2&ved=0CGYQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=731

 

[Agent.Tom]

I always say that some people are going to be right and a LOT of other people are going to be REEEEALLYYYYY surprised

Indeed. Hey, let's take it a step further. We are ALL going to be surprised. I picture myself barely able to make the cut, Peter giving me a swift kick in the ass as I stumble across the threshold at the pearly gates; and being handed a piece of cardboard that folds out into a big box that I will live in on the side of the street. Hopefully, I'll be one of the folks that are pleasantly surprised.

 

[Agent.Tom]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God.

This is a common misconception that non-Christians have about Christians. Most if not all of you evidently believe that the Christian faith is merely a choice that we made. As if we weighed all the different possibilities and just went with what we thought was most probable... or worse, we just threw a dart at a dartboard and it landed on "Christianity."

Far from it. If you ask any Christian; every Christian; we will tell you that the faith was/is an inevitable consequence; the result of an inner transformation that can hardly be explained.

I had my transformative 'eureka' moment just over 10 years ago. I still remember it as if it just happened. I remember thinking it was just a phase--maybe even a psychotic break. But after a couple of days of trying to shake it off and explain it away... I surrendered myself to it. I remember having to explain to my wife... "You're not going to believe this.. but.."

To some people, it is a slow process that finally takes them over. For me, it was a sudden, unexpected, even shocking event... because before it happened I was as dead-set against Christians as just about anyone here.

Jesus speaks in the bible of a transformative, rebirth experience. It's where the (unnecessarily derogatory these days) term "born-again Christian" comes from. Jesus said that you can't be a faithful believer until you are reborn and become a completely different person (inwardly). Some professed Christians may have a hard time swallowing this, but, Jesus made it quite clear that without that experience, one simply isn't a Christian. The bible says we are all born enemies of God. Slaves to sin. The bible says that until we transform through the work of the Holy Spirit, we will remain enemies of God.

So don't shoot the messenger. I'm merely repeating the message of Scripture, and corroborating it from personal experience.

 

[speck]

If I shake my fist at the sky and declare to God that I am impressed with neither his presence nor his proofs to date, and I challenge the aforementioned God to kill me now or forever be regarded and described by me as fictitious, does that prove anything?

It proves he reacts to you the same way he does others today that don't believe in him and demand proof of his existence.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Fictitiously?

 

[Caroljo]

Not if I'm still here these many years after.

You're time isn't the same as Gods. He's in no hurry, why should he be? He just may have not decided on your punishment, or may it's just not time. Don't blow your horn yet.....

Too late. We're already 10 pages in.



According to some interpretations of the ancient stories, my punishment was decided before I was born and there is an especially painful place in Hell for Monkeys who try to lead others from Jesus..

I'm fine with that. I consider it fiction.

Are you angry with me because of what I believe?

Of course I'm not angry at you because of what you believe....and I don't believe that your punishment was decided before you were born. We have freewill...and people can change what they believe. Maybe whatever God has in mind for you will be that something will happen in your life that will open your eyes, and maybe he'll just keep you blind to the truth. But He accepts anyone that wants to come to Him. You still have a chance

 

[JoeB131]

Just to throw this thread off on another tangent...

Even if you accept that the Universe has a design and purpose, how do you get to "The Abrahamic God must be THE God"?

Only one out of three humans alive believe in the Abrahamic God. So even if you accept Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "Kind of" right, half the world's population has it completely wrong.

And what abut the rest of the universe?

I always say that some people are going to be right and a LOT of other people are going to be REEEEALLYYYYY surprised

It's for that reason I can't ever be a believer.

What kind of cruel asshole would God be that he would send a perfectly nice Japanese person to Hell for just being born in Japan, but he'd let an Asshole in the west go to heaven for saying the right prayers.

In short, if you buy Christian Dogma, Ann Frank is burning in Hell right next to Hitler, and Jeffrey Dahmner is sitting on a cloud.

After All Anne didn't accept "Jesus" into her soul. She's going to hell.

Meanwhile, somewhere between killing and eating 19 guys and getting his brains smashed in by a fellow inmate, Chef Jeff found Jesus!!!

Seriously, how fucked up is that?

 

[JoeB131]

[

This is a common misconception that non-Christians have about Christians. Most if not all of you evidently believe that the Christian faith is merely a choice that we made. As if we weighed all the different possibilities and just went with what we thought was most probable... or worse, we just threw a dart at a dartboard and it landed on "Christianity."

Far from it. If you ask any Christian; every Christian; we will tell you that the faith was/is an inevitable consequence; the result of an inner transformation that can hardly be explained.

I had my transformative 'eureka' moment just over 10 years ago. I still remember it as if it just happened. I remember thinking it was just a phase--maybe even a psychotic break. But after a couple of days of trying to shake it off and explain it away... I surrendered myself to it. I remember having to explain to my wife... "You're not going to believe this.. but.."

To some people, it is a slow process that finally takes them over. For me, it was a sudden, unexpected, even shocking event... because before it happened I was as dead-set against Christians as just about anyone here.

Jesus speaks in the bible of a transformative, rebirth experience. It's where the (unnecessarily derogatory these days) term "born-again Christian" comes from. Jesus said that you can't be a faithful believer until you are reborn and become a completely different person (inwardly). Some professed Christians may have a hard time swallowing this, but, Jesus made it quite clear that without that experience, one simply isn't a Christian. The bible says we are all born enemies of God. Slaves to sin. The bible says that until we transform through the work of the Holy Spirit, we will remain enemies of God.

So don't shoot the messenger. I'm merely repeating the message of Scripture, and corroborating it from personal experience.

Horseshit. I was brought up Catholic.

the only reason I am not Catholic today is because when my mom got sick, and I prayed for her to get better, she didn't.

My sisters are STILL Catholic despite that. (Everyone knows NOT to talk about religion around Uncle Joe.)

So you can talk about being born again and how you found Jesus (I hear a lot of guys find him in prison), but at the end of the day, it's a big self-delusion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

When it comes to "religion," I don't care very much what you believe. It shouldn't urgently matter to you what I believe or what anyone else believes, either.

A wonderful thing about America, when it comes to religion, is that the First Amendment freedom of religion clause is so objective in that very way. Most Americans who have religious faith are Christians. But America doesn't get in your grille if you are Jewish or Muslim or animist or Wiccan or whatever. You can be devout or you can be a-religious or anti-religious. You simply get no say in what I choose to believe or choose not to believe (other than your right to share your own beliefs, of course). I remain free to accept or reject what you say in that regard.

By God, America is great.

I still wonder what crawls up the ass of all those who who are so venomous in their hostility to anybody with any religious belief. We get it. You don't believe in a creator or an Almighty. But why do you find it so urgent to get others to agree with you? Enjoy your own disbelief. Share it, even. Have a blast.

But stop worrying about it if others don't buy what you are attempting to peddle. Really. Lighten the fuck up.

For my part, I continue to believe in a Creator. I am not at all convinced that the Creator gives a hoot about religion, though.

Agreed, Ilyar. If there is a God then religion is probably the last thing he wants associated with his name. When you look at all of the atrocities that have been assigned to him in the holy books and the atrocities committed in his name and still being committed what sane deity wouldn't disassociate himself from them? Religion requires that people must believe all manner of nonsensical things from what to wear and eat, even up to and including what to say. That isn't "freedom" at all. That is religion exercising control over others which is the direct opposite of having "free will".

I will defend your right to believe in your creator just as strongly as I will oppose anyone attempting to impose their religious beliefs on others. Your belief is personal and private. Religions have an agenda that should never be allowed to dictate how We the People should govern ourselves.

 

[speck]

Fictitiously?

That depends on how a person chooses to view life. I view life as a gift that was given by a God that created the Earth, humans and a book (Bible) to help us understand it all.