If the Holy Spirit is removed, did God lie if He doesn't rapture us?

[Mr. H.]

Folks- you can find all that you seek not in the writings of humans who inhabited this earth 13 billion years after the fact, but in the fact itself. Stop deluding yourselves with nonsense, and start thinking sense.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi [MENTION=44368]Chuckt[/MENTION]
I understand we/all humanity are going through a spiritual process to establish
Justice or divine law under Jesus by agreement on truth, where first the spirit of truth is received, this agreement to seek truth together in unity is used to establish agreement in Christ or by conscience reconciling people, tribes and nations, this invokes the Holy Spirit to bring divine healing and grace to all people and relationships, and we receive God's truth that set us free from conflict and strife.

So there are references in the Bible to things like
a. generational curses of the fathers passed down to the fourth and fifth generations until these cycles are broken or finished
b. removing the knowledge of spiritual healing, so that these problems continue instead of being solved.
c. Satan being bound for 1000 years, then loosed again

There are periods where bad things will happen, so that we learn from history

I believe that (c) applies to certain periods such as the 1000 years of the early church when Christ teachings were focused on brotherly love and world peace; then around the 1st century the crusades started of killing in the name of the cross for political greed, abusing religion to dominate nations for Kings to abuse their power, which tarnished the message of Christianity and led to the current state of blaming Christian religion/church for all the hypocrisy in the world that is Antichrist confused with Christ and abuses done in the name of religion

As for the removal of the Healing power of the Holy Spirit,
both the Jehovah's Witness and the Church of Christ
teach the Bible as ending the spiritual healing after Jesus.
That he only used it to prove he was God incarnated in man.
And after that, they interpret the Bible as "the healing went away." They actually teach this.
The JW even believe the people doing spiritual healing must be "demonic" or "spiritism" that is going against God's will, and trying to change or dictate God's will.

So the knowledge of healing generational curses went underground and censored.
(I know people personally who do this kind of spiritual healing and breaking generational curses;
and yet they cannot reach out to people publicly who are "blinded" to this knowledge. To such
people this kind of casting out demons and healing diseases isn't even real, so it isn't public knowledge.)

So that way the curses continue to affect people, and the abuses repeat.
People die every day from drug problems, criminal sickness, etc. that could be cured
but this knowledge of how to break people free is cut off from the general public.
To the people doing the healing, the Holy Spirit is here and not denied to anyone.
To the people who don't see it as real and don't receive, this doesn't exist.
It's not even a choice, so they remain in hellish suffering while others are living in spiritual heaven on earth.

So we see the addictions repeat, the karma going into these people "born"
homosexual and suffering all kinds of judgment and problems in life, etc.

This is not to punish people. Because we learn by free will and reason, we compare the process, of how the problems continued when we didn't forgive and receive spiritual healing. Then compare to cases where people DID heal of alcoholic drug or sexual addiction, where people healed of cancer or other physical diseases, and we eventually learn the natural process of spiritual healing that affects mind, body, spirit and relationships.

So I believe it is divinely inspired when people have the "blinders" taken off their eyes so we can see the bigger process going on.

As we learn to forgive and receive healing and understanding of God's truth,
then the Holy Spirit will be received in full. In the meantime, it is part of our spiritual process, which people are ready to see which things. Not everyone is in the same stage.

It's like the grief process, some people are still in numbness and denial, others in anger and projection, others in resolution and acceptance so we can make peace.

It's all part of one spiritual process all humanity goes through.
For God's reasons, some people are still in stages blinded with numbness or rage
and aren't ready to work with the people who ready for peacemaking and healing.

In the end, we will all be working through salvation together.
Right now, it looks like the people who are aware of this larger process going on,
need to organize and find ways to manage the different people/groups in different stages.

I think you are looking at the whole picture, but in truth, people are not in the same place in the process so we can't make generalizations based on that, on who is raptured and who is not. Some people are already raptured and live in a spiritual level with God in heaven.

So their viewpoint is going to be different from those who don't even know there is this huge spiritual process going on that involves all humanity.

The answers are going to be different depending where people are in the process.

"Until he" meaning the Holy Spirit "be taken out of the way".

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The Holy Spirit will abide with us forever so if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, did God lie if we are still here and yet God said he may abide with us forever?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If we are still here and if God doesn't rapture us, did God lie?

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

 

[emilynghiem]

[MENTION=854]Avatar4321[/MENTION] [MENTION=44368]Chuckt[/MENTION]

There is no rapture. It's an 18th century doctrine that was completely absent the previous two millennium of Christian history.

I find the stages in the Bible represent spiritual stages and process
that each person goes through, so collectively the symbols are used to represent this global process "for all humanity"

Each person's spiritual process is different for them, though it follows basic patterns, like the 5 stages of grief are very basic, but people can go through them in different periods or order

For "rapture" and "tribulation" (or "purgatory"/"judgment day")
everyone I know goes through stages of struggling to resolve deep rooted conflicts,
then having to go through a liberation stage to be freed from conflicting conditions.

So I use these terms VERY loosely, and if people use them to describe their own experiences, that is valid to me; and collectively this still describes a "rapture" for all humanity as a whole by combining all those experiences as one general stage.

For rapture, I went through a sudden change where my mind no longer looked at things from a worldly physical perspective, but started to perceive things as connected with all human history, past and future combined, as one huge spiritual process for all people

So whatever version of THAT aha moment of oneness or understanding that we are all in this together as one humanity, which is different for each person, collectively is what the rapture represents

It makes sense to me that for "Christ to return to earth" this happens at a different time for each person, when we first understood and felt Christ was really WITH us in this lifetime, the spirit was already incarnated in our relations, so that IS the same as Christ manifesting on earth; and when you take this connection "collectively for all humanity" then when EVERYONE receives this understanding and is joined with others "in Christ" that is when all eyes shall see, all ears shall hear, all hearts shall receive. When we all have this understanding then the spirit of Christ is embodied on earth through people. So that is like the rapture happening, when Christ comes for all people and we all receive, in our own time and way, and we no longer see things from just a material viewpoint but live on earth in this spiritual mindset that is new in Christ.

Similar for tribulation where people go through painful stress before during or after a major life change and "up and down swings" in life or moods or relationships, in the process of reaching a resolution by letting go of conditions and giving birth to a new life free of those conditions and starting free

For "purgatory" I also went through a cleansing phase, more than once, of burning away any impure attachments or issues from the past. the "second death" and "burning in the lake of fire" the "gnashing of teeth" and other descriptions might apply to the painful process of spiritual deliverance and purging/cleansing that feels like scraping your insides out and dying inside where you're not sure you are going to survive or having anything left.

For some people, these stages may repeat or be out of order, just like the grief stages are not the same for all people. They are just the general patterns.

 

[emilynghiem]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

[MENTION=42404]Vandalshandle[/MENTION]
This means you are of the secular gentile tribe that sees things in terms of natural laws.
Jesus is like the spirit of Justice that does govern man by these natural laws universal for humanity.

The people under sacred laws focus on Jesus as Salvation fulfilling those laws, too.
Both are universal but some people focus/relate to one and not necessarily the other.

The point is to live in harmony, where common respect for Justice will satisfy both laws, the scriptural laws of believers through the church, and the natural laws of gentiles and the state.

I think Jefferson focused on natural laws, and didn't really follow the miracles and divine interpretations of Jesus on that level. Many Muslims who follow the Bible see Jesus as a natural man who served humanity through his teachings, but do not necessarily focus on him as God's Justice incarnated in man, as the Christians do and some Muslims.

I see that Jesus represents Justice on both levels at the same time
Man's justice through natural laws and trying to establish Equal Justice under civil laws
Divine Justice with Mercy taught through the church by spiritual healing and outreach

The main thing is to understand these two paths do not contradict each other
but are supposed to work in harmony. It's okay to only relate to one path, if we can still respect the complementary relationship with the other groups and try to help each other.

 

[jillian]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

that's because his words were twisted by men.

go figure

 

[PostmodernProph]

BIG TIME agree with you. I've studied this issue in depth and can prove (scripturally) that the "pre-trib" rapture doctrine is incorrect.

I haven't studied it at all and can prove that I don't care.....

Thanks for your helpful and productive post. Deep!

actually, it is a reflective question......why do Christians argue about the rapture and the millenia?.....does any of it matter to a believer?......

 

[PostmodernProph]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

no one does.....the words of the Bible that say he is the Son of Man are in different places than the ones that say he's the son of God......it isn't a matter of translating the same words differently, just of reading them all......but I am curious.....why do you think Jesus said he was not the son of God?......

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

I haven't studied it at all and can prove that I don't care.....

Thanks for your helpful and productive post. Deep!

actually, it is a reflective question......why do Christians argue about the rapture and the millenia?.....does any of it matter to a believer?......

Why do atheists argue over something that in their mindset, never existed to begin with? Squarely illogical. Not only argue it, but obsess over a non-entity. To each his own. Look in your own backyard before you start casting aspersions.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Thanks for your helpful and productive post. Deep!

actually, it is a reflective question......why do Christians argue about the rapture and the millenia?.....does any of it matter to a believer?......

Why do atheists argue over something that in their mindset, never existed to begin with? Squarely illogical. Not only argue it, but obsess over a non-entity. To each his own. Look in your own backyard before you start casting aspersions.

is there something wrong with my backyard?.....

 

[guno]

I get a kick out of Christians quoting Hebrew scripture, it was given to and for the Jews and never pertained to non Jews. Moses brought own the ten guides , not commandments which referred to and was expounded in the 613 commandants given to the Jews.

On behalf of Israel, Moses received torah, traditionally translated 'law'. This is not law in the modern sense but rather authoritative teaching, instruction, or guidance. The most famous of these commandments are the Ten guides. But there are actually 613 commandments covering every aspect of life including law, family, and personal hygiene and diet.

 

[guno]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

God never brought the goyim or their ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."
The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"
Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)
If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath!

 

[GISMYS]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

God never brought me or my ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

The Lord has not given me the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"

Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)

If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath!

SO YOU THINK YOU can get around GOD'S LAWS AND COMMANDS TO MANKIND?? DREAM ON!!! BUT TRYTO WAKE UP BEFORE YOU FEEL THE FLAMES!!!

 

[hobelim]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

Yes. but the law was given to the Jews as a light to the nations which means everybody. No one lights a candle and then places it under a bushel.

Are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if non Jews worship false gods, lie about their neighbor, murder, etc., and will suffer no consequences even if they claim to worship the God of Abraham??

If a non Jew worships a false god do they not die in that very day?

If the law is eternal and embodies the wisdom of God, why would the law have no effect on lawbreakers simply because they were not Jewish? Would a non Jew who observes the Law be excluded from the promised life for compliance simply because they were not a Jew?

Why do so many Christians bear all the signs of a person under the condemnation of God if the law does not apply to them?


why not shed some light on why so many Jews have historically preferred torture, persecution and death instead of the defiant worship of a Jesus, a human being that was not and is not God?

 

[guno]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

God never brought me or my ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

The Lord has not given me the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"

Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)

If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath!

SO YOU THINK YOU can get around GOD'S LAWS AND COMMANDS TO MANKIND?? DREAM ON!!! BUT TRYTO WAKE UP BEFORE YOU FEEL THE FLAMES!!!

No Low IQ boy it was given to the Jews NOT the Goyim, learn to read

The very words of the ten commandments clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

God never brought the goyim or their ancestors out of Egypt! Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."
The Lord has not given the goyim the promised land of Canaan! Ex 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you"
Since the Sabbath is a sign between God and fleshly Israel, there is nothing requiring non-Jews to keep it! (Ex. 31:13,17; Ezek. 20:12, 20)
If it was intended for all mankind, then why specifically say "strangers within your gates". Obviously the Gentiles (strangers) were never required at any point in earth history to keep the Sabbath!

 

[guno]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

Yes. but the law was given to the Jews as a light to the nations which means everybody.

Are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if non Jews worship false gods, lie about their neighbor, murder, etc., and will suffer no consequences even if they claim to worship the God of Abraham??

If a non Jew worships a false god do they not die in that very day?

If the law is eternal and embodies the wisdom of God, why would the law have no effect on lawbreakers simply because they were not Jewish? Would a non Jew who observes the Law be excluded from the promised life for compliance simply because they were not a Jew?

Why do so many Christians bear all the signs of a person under the condemnation of God if the law does not apply to them?


why not shed some light on why so many Jews have historically preferred torture, persecution and death instead of the defiant worship of a Jesus, a human being that is not and was not God?

Sorry , it does not say that or mean that , It was Given to only the Jews and most certainly not christians who are pagans for worshiping a man

 

[guno]

The only thing goyim should follow are Noahic or Noahide commandments, which are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal.

Nothing more nothing less

 

[hobelim]

The 10 commandments and the Sabbath were given ONLY to Jews

The very words of the ten "commandments" clearly tells us that the commandments were for the Jewish people ONLY!

Yes. but the law was given to the Jews as a light to the nations which means everybody.

Are you suggesting that it doesn't matter if non Jews worship false gods, lie about their neighbor, murder, etc., and will suffer no consequences even if they claim to worship the God of Abraham??

If a non Jew worships a false god do they not die in that very day?

If the law is eternal and embodies the wisdom of God, why would the law have no effect on lawbreakers simply because they were not Jewish? Would a non Jew who observes the Law be excluded from the promised life for compliance simply because they were not a Jew?

Why do so many Christians bear all the signs of a person under the condemnation of God if the law does not apply to them?


why not shed some light on why so many Jews have historically preferred torture, persecution and death instead of the defiant worship of a Jesus, a human being that is not and was not God?

Sorry , it does not say that or mean that , It was Given to only the Jews and most certainly not christians who are pagans for worshiping a man

Yes, I said that I agreed. But the expressed purpose of law being given to the Jewish people was as a light to the nations whose world without divine law has no shape or form and is void and darkness covers the face of the deep.

You already know that many Jews dismiss the law as bronze age superstition designed to control people and are as lawless as the most dedicated heathen out there and have no belief in any God at all.

How are they any more or less dead than a person who worships another human being?

The question being how is the consequence for setting aside the Law manifested in a Jew any different than for a non Jew??

and if the law was meant for only Jews why do so many non Jews display all the signs of a person who is under the condemnation of God in the state of death promised for noncompliance?

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

no one does.....the words of the Bible that say he is the Son of Man are in different places than the ones that say he's the son of God......it isn't a matter of translating the same words differently, just of reading them all......but I am curious.....why do you think Jesus said he was not the son of God?......

Maybe because he wasn't?

 

[GISMYS]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

no one does.....the words of the Bible that say he is the Son of Man are in different places than the ones that say he's the son of God......it isn't a matter of translating the same words differently, just of reading them all......but I am curious.....why do you think Jesus said he was not the son of God?......

Maybe because he wasn't?

WHAT IGNORANCE!!! JESUS says in many scripture verse that he is God =the Son of God and the pharisees knew JESUS was saying he was GOD,they had him killed for that.