If the Holy Spirit is removed, did God lie if He doesn't rapture us?

[hobelim]

Till now I have been using figures of speech....John 16:25

but they did not understand what He meant..... john 10:16

but they did not understand what He meant....Mark 9:32

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 2:50

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 9:45

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 18:34

How is it even possible to listen to what Jesus says and do it if you don't understand what he meant?

The answer is that to me he gave the mysteries of the kingdom and to you it is not given:

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Knowing the mysteries of the kingdom can only come by understanding, comprehension that is either granted or denied by God

Irish Ram said she doesn't even try to figure out what he meant.

If one doesn't understand what Jesus meant, they cannot know the mysteries of the kingdom.

If one doesn't understand what Jesus meant they cannot do what he said.

If one doesn't understand what Jesus meant but profess to hold the keys to the kingdom they are just an actor and lying fraud and can have no life in them.

You neither understand scripture nor the power of God.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Something I've always figured, if you really believed in things like Jesus, God, the rapture, etc. we should never hear from you since you'd be concerned about saying something in anger or while stressing that God would then hold against you. Probably wouldn't be an active member of society either fearing ever going out and 'commiting adultery by merely looking at an attractive woman.' and things like that.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The phrase "God with us" or Emanuel, means exactly what it says. God, with us. Which is why Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

Instead of trying to figure out what God meant, just listen to what He says:

Till now I have been using figures of speech....John 16:25

but they did not understand what He meant..... john 10:16

but they did not understand what He meant....Mark 9:32

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 2:50

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 9:45

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 18:34

How is it even possible to listen to what Jesus says and do it if you don't understand what he meant?

the things he said got easier to understand when he walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Something I've always figured, if you really believed in things like Jesus, God, the rapture, etc. we should never hear from you since you'd be concerned about saying something in anger or while stressing that God would then hold against you. Probably wouldn't be an active member of society either fearing ever going out and 'commiting adultery by merely looking at an attractive woman.' and things like that.

???.....God doesn't hold anything against us except denying his existence......have you not been paying attention?.....

 

[Chuckt]

Ugh..

Hezekiah became king of Israel, Jesus did not. The land of the two kings that Ahaz cowered before became a desolation before Hezekiah was old enough to reject evil and choose good, Just like Isaiah said in the prophecy...700 years before Christ was born.

And Jesus was not called Immanuel, the prince of peace, or wonderful counselor either.

Jesus is the King of kings. He's not only the King of Israel but the King over mankind. You must have missed the verse I quoted from Matthew showing the Christ WAS called Emmanuel or "God with us."

The phrase 'God with us" does not mean that the person through which the word of God came to dwell among us is God exactly like being 'called' mighty God does not mean that the person being called God is God.

Emmanuel = "God with us"

the title applied to the Messiah, born of the virgin, Mt 1:23, Is. 7:14, because Jesus was God united with man, and showed that God was dwelling with man

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The dictionary doesn't agree with you. Pity.

 

[MaryL]

Sometimes I wonder, WHAT IF CHRISTANS ARE RIGHT? I lay in bed, and imagine being carried to heaven and a beautiful host of angels welcome me, and take me up to GOD. And all knowing spirit that sees me naked, without any kind of artifice or deceptions. With all the good or bad I have done, would I deserve to be let in to heaven? Just saying, hypothetically. I don't think I would. But, I still think God is just a guilt complex delusion we place on our selves. But perhaps, a good one. In a Zen sort of way.

 

[Synthaholic]

There is no rapture. It's an 18th century doctrine that was completely absent the previous two millennium of Christian history.

You finally got something right!

The rapture is found nowhere in the Bible.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Mary, He's your Father. You are made in His image. You have no end. You are glorious to Him, to the extent that even though the # changes daily, He can tell you how many hairs are on your head right now.
He loves you. He created you for a purpose. And this wisp of time spent here in this condition isn't it. This is merely basic training. You're role in eternity should you decide to accept it, is to serve the universe and all that your Father owns, as co-heirs with Christ and as a member of the Royal House.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There is no rapture. It's an 18th century doctrine that was completely absent the previous two millennium of Christian history.

You finally got something right!

The rapture is found nowhere in the Bible.

Avatar and I disagree on this. There have already been several raptures. And I believe the one that applies to the end times is mentioned here:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There are two instances of Christ coming back. They are two separate events because the descriptions of each differ dramatically. In the one described above, we go up because that is where Christ is, in the air. In the subsequent return, He touches down in a specific place, the Mt. of Olives and causes an earthquake.

The first happens in a twinkling of an eye, 11/100's of a second and it's over. That is not enough time for an earthquake and for the Jews to run to the safety of the Messiah that they then recognize Christ as. That return lasts for 1,000 years and into eternity.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we (those still alive when it happens and are snatched up also) will be changed.

In the first event, believers see and hear the call. In the second the whole world sees Him.

But how I know there will be a rapture is because of this:

1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from...
1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to...
Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from.....
Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient....

Wrath is coming like this earth has never seen before. God's children are not appointed to it:

Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

^ There is no mention of the church after Chapter 4 in Revelation.

The word used in the Bible is ek and means out of, from, emission out of, or exit every time it is used. It is used 920 times in 760 verses.

Just because it is called something other than the word rapture doesn't mean it won't occur. It was described as rapio by Jerome in 382 AD, and many others prior to the 1880's. You won't find the word Trinity in the Bible either, but it is well defined in it's text.

 

[DriftingSand]

I have never understood why Christians translate, "...the Son of Man", to be, "...the Son of God". I have always thought that Jesus meant exactly what he said, that he was not the son of god, but the son of man.

It's a matter of perspective. In one sense, all of mankind are "sons of God" as He is our Father. However, Christ was specifically born to fulfill an important aspect of God's will for the whole of mankind. He and only He could fulfill that important task because He was literally God in the flesh. Jesus Christ was 100% man as pertaining to the flesh and 100% God as pertaining to His Spirit. See John 1:1 and John 1:14. Jesus was born of a woman which makes Him the "son of man" (or mankind - the flesh) but Mary was a virgin who became pregnant without ever having "been with" a man. Therefore, He was the Son of God.

 

[DriftingSand]

Here's a cut down version of my study on the rapture:

Proverbs 2:21-22,
"21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Proverbs 10:29-30,
"29The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."

Psalms 37:29,
"29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

John 17:15,
"15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The above verses indicate that the wicked, not the righteous, shall be taken away or removed from earth. Following is a second witness to that fact:

Matthew 13:38-43,
"38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A very popular pro-rapture passage is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
"16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Please note that "the dead in Christ shall rise first" when Christ returns at the sound of the "trump of God." Lets address the exact timing when the "dead shall rise" as well as the timing of this "trump of God."

John 6:40,
"40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44,
"44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54,
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Note: the dead do not rise until "the last day" at the sound of the trump of God. Now what is the "trump of God?" The 7 trumps are plainly listed in Revelation in chronological order:

Revelation 8:2, "2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:7, "7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, ..."
Revelation 8:8, "8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"
Revelation 8:10, " 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp ..."
Revelation 8:12, " 12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, ..."
Revelation 9:1, "1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
Revelation 9:13, "13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,"
Revelation 11:15, "15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 15:52 clearly tells us when the dead shall be raised in relation to the trumps of God:

1 Corinthians 15:52,
"52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

So we know that the dead shall be raised on the last day at the sound of the last trump. We know that Jesus Christ doesn't return until after the tribulation of those days at "the last day."

It's the last (7th) and final trump of God that announces Christ's triumphant return. The first 6 trumps announce various phases of tribulation. This is witnessed by the following passage:

Matthew 24:29-31,
"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Christ clearly returns "after the tribulation of those days."

The Kingdom of God will be right here on earth:

Revelation 21:10,
"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

Matthew 6:10, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

Psalms 37:29,
"29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

I've seen a few of the posts concerning the rapture which use a couple of the usual verses as arguments FOR a pre-trib rapture. However, I address those verses in the above study.

Those who are raised with be raised on the "last day." Anyway ... I felt that it was important to "bump" my post in case some folks might of missed it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The phrase "God with us" or Emanuel, means exactly what it says. God, with us. Which is why Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

Instead of trying to figure out what God meant, just listen to what He says:

Till now I have been using figures of speech....John 16:25

but they did not understand what He meant..... john 10:16

but they did not understand what He meant....Mark 9:32

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 2:50

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 9:45

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 18:34

Christ spoke using figures of speech to root out those that had ears to hear, and were inclined to understand, to be his disciples. And to protect those that had ears but didn't hear. That way they couldn't be condemned for hearing, understanding, and then not doing. It was for the multitudes' protection.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Sometimes I wonder, WHAT IF CHRISTANS ARE RIGHT? I lay in bed, and imagine being carried to heaven and a beautiful host of angels welcome me, and take me up to GOD. And all knowing spirit that sees me naked, without any kind of artifice or deceptions. With all the good or bad I have done, would I deserve to be let in to heaven? Just saying, hypothetically. I don't think I would. But, I still think God is just a guilt complex delusion we place on our selves. But perhaps, a good one. In a Zen sort of way.

no one has been good enough to "deserve" heaven.....since he doesn't require you to be, why do you accuse him of giving you a guilt complex?.......

 

[hobelim]

The phrase "God with us" or Emanuel, means exactly what it says. God, with us. Which is why Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

Instead of trying to figure out what God meant, just listen to what He says:

Till now I have been using figures of speech....John 16:25

but they did not understand what He meant..... john 10:16

but they did not understand what He meant....Mark 9:32

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 2:50

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 9:45

but they did not understand what He meant....luke 18:34

Christ spoke using figures of speech to root out those that had ears to hear, and were inclined to understand, to be his disciples. And to protect those that had ears but didn't hear. That way they couldn't be condemned for hearing, understanding, and then not doing. It was for the multitudes' protection.

That sounds nice but it just isn't true.


The entire OT that was the only source of instruction for Jesus was written either during or after times of persecution, occupation, destruction and exile.

Jesus lived and taught during a time of brutal Roman occupation and the gospels were written immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and exile of the Jewish people and exactly like the times during which the OT was written there was no such thing as freedom of speech and people were killed, maimed, imprisoned and enslaved on a daily basis for trivial reasons.

That's why the OT was written in figurative language, that's why Jesus spoke in figurative language, and that's why the NT is written in figurative language.

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure lying buried in a field, The man who found it, buried it again." Mathew 13:44

It is the use of language that conveys hidden teaching that goes over the head of the enemy, the superstitious and the ignorant, like a cherubim with a flaming and flashing sword that turns every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

Its as simple as that.

still works like a charm....