If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[JohnDB]

Those polish troops are there to take back parts of Western Ukraine that were once Polish, you do know that.

No...
Poland wants western Belarus back....not Ukraine territories. Ukraine wouldn't mind Southern Russian territories that are along the border.
Ukraine is kinda like Mexico is to the USA or even more like Bolivia to Brazil. Useful but the people? Uggghhhh. (Not that I agree with the sentiments but whatever eh?) It wouldn't take much for a wall to be built along Poland's border with Ukraine.

Poland has been heavily industrialized and a spirit of nationalism is ruling the day there. There exists a LOT of animosity towards Russia for the USSR days. They want a pound of flesh from Russia itself....no one else.
Poland has a 500,000 man army NOW....and building towards a million.

Ukraine is having issues due to their lack of coordination training that requires 2 years of practice to get right. Where Ukraine is doing the best that it can...it's not going to be enough.

Are the increasing sanctions and attritional warfare going to be enough to keep Poland out of Ukraine?
I have no idea.

Russia is hurting economically whether they wish to admit it or not. Their war chest is either depleted or going to bevin the next two months. (Considering how much they lie its impossible to know for certainty).

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

P.S.

In the very unlikely case of Russia re-stabilizing itself, making big military advances, and the Ukrainian state itself essentially collapsing — Zelensky and top generals can be killed — then I would still oppose the U.S.or NATO entering the war with its own soldiers.

This struggle is of course partly a “proxy war,” but it is also a genuine Ukrainian independence struggle. The U.S. and NATO could survive and maybe even grow stronger should the Russians somehow manage to “win” eventually, so long as they at least keep their pledge to do everything they can to help the Ukrainians fight their own battle.

It is important that Russia not come out of this terrible war stronger, but any possible “victory” for authoritarian Russia over Ukraine would now be essentially “Pyrrhic” and circumscribed, one that would almost certainly not reverse Russia’s national decline.

 

[Deadstick]

A cease fire is an invitation to Russia to renew its attacks on Ukraine, perhaps in another eight years, as it did after the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. The larger goal has to be to persuade Russia it cannot gain territory through military action, and nothing but driving Russia from all of Ukraine will accomplish that. There is nothing to negotiate with Russia until it leaves Ukraine and accepts that Ukraine will be a member of NATO.

Why do people keep repeating the nonsense about Russia invading Ukraine in 2014? there was no invasion, and the news is whats left of Ukraine when this is over will never be in Nato, Nato shouldn't even exist, it's way past it's sell by date, it's no more than a foreign Legion for US Global hegemony and a cash cow for the industrial military complex, but it will go down either on it's own or be taken down.

 

[Deadstick]

No...
Poland wants western Belarus back....not Ukraine territories. Ukraine wouldn't mind Southern Russian territories that are along the border.
Ukraine is kinda like Mexico is to the USA or even more like Bolivia to Brazil. Useful but the people? Uggghhhh. (Not that I agree with the sentiments but whatever eh?) It wouldn't take much for a wall to be built along Poland's border with Ukraine.

Poland has been heavily industrialized and a spirit of nationalism is ruling the day there. There exists a LOT of animosity towards Russia for the USSR days. They want a pound of flesh from Russia itself....no one else.
Poland has a 500,000 man army NOW....and building towards a million.

Ukraine is having issues due to their lack of coordination training that requires 2 years of practice to get right. Where Ukraine is doing the best that it can...it's not going to be enough.

Are the increasing sanctions and attritional warfare going to be enough to keep Poland out of Ukraine?
I have no idea.

Russia is hurting economically whether they wish to admit it or not. Their war chest is either depleted or going to bevin the next two months. (Considering how much they lie its impossible to know for certainty).

Polish politicians are toxic, their Russophobia is deranged, they never seem to have a problem with the Germans who were responsible for killing six million Poles, they have like those Nazis in the Baltics desecrated memorials to Soviet soldiers, even Polish soldiers who fought alongside the Red army against the Nazis, they are very sick people.

 

[José]

That's the mistake the West made in 2008, when Putin invaded Georgia, and made again in 2014 when Putin invaded Ukraine, and it is, of course the mistake the World made when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, and now you want to make that same mistake again, now?

TOOMUCHTIME​

George Kennan on NATO expansion:

"This disastrous policy, sooner or later, will provoke a russian reaction. And when Russia finally reacts the neocons who conceived this policy will point their fingers and say:

"See?? We were right all along about expanding NATO."

GEORGE FROST KENNAN
(GOOD NAME FOR A COLD WAR STRATEGIST) ​

Kennan's fantastic ability to predict, not only the wars in Georgia and Ukraine decades before they happened, but also his ability to anticipate the mental processes and rationalizations of super patriotic american clowns never ceases to amaze me and amuse me. : )

 

[JohnDB]

P.S.

In the very unlikely case of Russia re-stabilizing itself, making big military advances, and the Ukrainian state itself essentially collapsing — Zelensky and top generals can be killed — then I would still oppose the U.S.or NATO entering the war with its own soldiers.

This struggle is of course partly a “proxy war,” but it is also a genuine Ukrainian independence struggle. The U.S. and NATO could survive and maybe even grow stronger should the Russians somehow manage to “win” eventually, so long as they at least keep their pledge to do everything they can to help the Ukrainians fight their own battle.

It is important that Russia not come out of this terrible war stronger, but any possible “victory” for authoritarian Russia over Ukraine would now be essentially “Pyrrhic” and circumscribed, one that would almost certainly not reverse Russia’s national decline.

Are you asleep at the wheel?

Poland wants in this fight so bad it can taste it. They have 150,000 mobilized troops at the ready to invade Ukraine the moment their Counteroffensive falters. Plus another 400K to back them up. Meanwhile Russia is supposedly massing 100,000 troops to advance and take Karkhiv.

With tonight's attack on the last remaining ports of Ukrainians had....this is escalating and escalating.

How much longer until the world becomes a rotisserie? Dunno. Depends on if the Russians let Putin continue the madness.

 

[toomuchtime_]

P.S.

In the very unlikely case of Russia re-stabilizing itself, making big military advances, and the Ukrainian state itself essentially collapsing — Zelensky and top generals can be killed — then I would still oppose the U.S.or NATO entering the war with its own soldiers.

This struggle is of course partly a “proxy war,” but it is also a genuine Ukrainian independence struggle. The U.S. and NATO could survive and maybe even grow stronger should the Russians somehow manage to “win” eventually, so long as they at least keep their pledge to do everything they can to help the Ukrainians fight their own battle.

It is important that Russia not come out of this terrible war stronger, but any possible “victory” for authoritarian Russia over Ukraine would now be essentially “Pyrrhic” and circumscribed, one that would almost certainly not reverse Russia’s national decline.

The Ukrainian state is not collapsing and there is no doubt but that anything perceived by the Russian leadership as a victory would encourage more attacks. There is no rational basis for thinking a Russian victory of any kind would benefit the US or NATO. Russia has violated every relevant treaty and broken every relevant international law in its entirely illegal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, and there is absolutely no reason to think any document signed by Russia would mean anything. The only way peace can be achieved and maintained is for Russia to demonstrate by actions that it has finished with its imperialist ambitions, and that would mean a complete withdrawal from Ukraine and a public acceptance of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO. Anything less is bullshit.

 

[Baron]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

Ukraine will never lose the war because the nuclear WWIII comes before

 

[Deadstick]

Ukraine will never lose the war because the nuclear WWIII comes before

Well then we all lose, these clowns have had enough they can't run fast enough.they thought they were on safari killing sandal wearing peasants, they found themselves in a real war.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That's the mistake the West made in 2008, when Putin invaded Georgia, and made again in 2014 when Putin invaded Ukraine, and it is, of course the mistake the World made when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, and now you want to make that same mistake again, now?

TOOMUCHTIME​

George Kennan on NATO expansion:

"This disastrous policy, sooner or later, will provoke a russian reaction. And when Russia finally reacts the neocons who conceived this policy will point their fingers and say:

"See?? We were right all along about expanding NATO."

GEORGE FROST KENNAN
(GOOD NAME FOR A COLD WAR STRATEGIST) ​

Kennan's fantastic ability to predict, not only the wars in Georgia and Ukraine decades before they happened, but also his ability to anticipate the mental processes and rationalizations of super patriotic american clowns never ceases to amaze me and amuse me. : )

Basically, what Keenan is saying is that the former soviet states should not have the right to join a defense pact that would protect them against Russian imperialism, and if your focus is on big power politics, that makes sense, but the civilized world - you may have heard of it - has moved on since then, and it is no longer acceptable for great powers to dictate the rights of weaker nations.

Accepting eastern European nations into NATO in no way posed a threat to Russia's security but only a threat to Russian imperialism, and if Russia finds that unacceptable then accepting these states into NATO was exactly the right thing to do. Perhaps if you stopped prattling about "NATO EXPANSION" and started calling by a more appropriate term, the liberation of Europe from Russian tyranny, you would understand it better.

 

[Baron]

Well then we all lose, these clowns have had enough they can't run fast enough.they thought they were on safari killing sandal wearing peasants, they found themselves in a real war.

Only completely imbeciles can't see the satanic gang of diabolic criminals Putin, Biden, Zelensky and their pals do anything possible to instigate nuclear war

 

[Baron]

Basically, what Keenan is saying is that the former soviet states should not have the right to join a defense pact that would protect them against Russian imperialism, and if your focus is on big power politics, that makes sense, but the civilized world - you may have heard of it - has moved on since then, and it is no longer acceptable for great powers to dictate the rights of weaker nations.

Accepting eastern European nations into NATO in no way posed a threat to Russia's security but only a threat to Russian imperialism, and if Russia finds that unacceptable then accepting these states into NATO was exactly the right thing to do. Perhaps if you stopped prattling about "NATO EXPANSION" and started calling by a more appropriate term, the liberation of Europe from Russian tyranny, you would understand it better.

Guys, the situation has been changed, the world is run today by satanists of NWO, just think about their SCAMdemic CONvid 1984 and their mRNA quackcine which has already killed more as 100m in different countries.
Putin, Biden, Zelensky & Co want to destroy humanity in the name of their true bosses, Schwab and Satan.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The civilized world - you may have heard of it - has moved on since then, and it is no longer acceptable for great powers to dictate the rights of weaker nations.

Are you intentionally trying to sound like a U.S. hypocrite?

I agree that Russia’s Feb. 2022 military invasion of independent Ukraine was a bloody outrage. But the U.S. and many of its closest allies have a long and recent history of invading, occupying or just trying to “dictate the rights of weaker nations” — even of countries thousands of miles away from our borders.

As for George Kennan, he both beat the drums to warn of the Soviet danger after WWII and was also the father of the successful “containment” strategy, now mostly considered “too passive” by most U.S. “Atlantic Alliance” policy makers. There is much to learn from his later warnings. He was a farsighted American statesman.

 

[Baron]

Are you intentionally trying to sound like a U.S. hypocrite?

I agree that Russia’s Feb. 2022 military invasion of independent Ukraine was a bloody outrage. But the U.S. and many of its closest allies have a long and recent history of invading, occupying or just trying to “dictate the rights of weaker nations” — even of countries thousands of miles away from our borders.

As for George Kennan, he both beat the drums to warn of the Soviet danger after WWII and was also the father of the successful “containment” strategy, now mostly considered “too passive” by most American “Atlantic Alliance” policy makers. Theirs is much to learn from his later warnings and that history.

Who cares?
Almost all our 'leaders' are satanic freemasons.
Do you know their final goal?
Reducing of human population down to few millions.
They want nuclear WWIII

Read here

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Who cares?
Almost all our 'leaders' are satanic freemasons.
Do you know their final goal?
Reducing of human population down to few millions.
They want nuclear WWIII

Read here

You are a raving lunatic. You need psychiatric help. I have nothing else to say to you.

 

[skye]

NATO and the collective West already are at war with Russia.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Ukraine will never lose the war because the nuclear WWIII comes before

Horseshit.

Are you intentionally trying to sound like a U.S. hypocrite?

I agree that Russia’s Feb. 2022 military invasion of independent Ukraine was a bloody outrage. But the U.S. and many of its closest allies have a long and recent history of invading, occupying or just trying to “dictate the rights of weaker nations” — even of countries thousands of miles away from our borders.

As for George Kennan, he both beat the drums to warn of the Soviet danger after WWII and was also the father of the successful “containment” strategy, now mostly considered “too passive” by most American “Atlantic Alliance” policy makers. There is much to learn from his later warnings, He was a farsighted American statesman.

Since WWI, the US has never invaded another country for the sole purpose of taking control of it, as Russia has done in Ukraine, so if you don't want to be a hypocrite, stop trying to find moral equivalence between America's actions and Putin's.

Keenan's world view was shaped by the great cold war, which ended in 1991 with the collapse of the USSR, and Russia was no longer the great power the USSR had been, and the whole world, including Russia at that time recognized the former soviet states as sovereign nations, so Keenan's Cold War world view was rejected by the western world.

The important thing to remember is that at no time since 1991 did NATO pose a threat to Russia's security, so if Russia objected to eastern European nations joining NATO, it could only mean Russia was withdrawing its recognition of their sovereignty and that means it was urgent for them to join NATO, and if the US were to deny these nations the opportunity to defend themselves by joining NATO, it would have amounted to the US also withdrawing its recognition of their sovereignty, and this would have been unacceptable to anyone who had any hope of a better world.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

If the US were to deny these nations the opportunity to defend themselves by joining NATO, it would have amounted to the US also withdrawing its recognition of their sovereignty, and this would have been unacceptable to anyone who had any hope of a better world.

First of all, we are now in no way “denying” Ukraine “the opportunity to defend itself,” let alone “withdrawing recognition of its sovereignty,” and I remind you it is not now in NATO!

Indeed, we very mistakenly announced as early as 2008 under George Bush that Ukraine & Georgia “will join NATO” — at a time when even the majority of people in those countries did not favor NATO membership. This was provocative madness, as many reasonable statesmen pointed out at the time.

Though it is not in NATO we are now financing most of Ukraine’s government and military with billions of dollars. NATO countries are sheltering its women and children refugees. We are providing modern training, modern weapons and super-valuable intelligence and communications equipment. It seems you are as hung up on “NATO membership” as is Russia.

The original verbal promises to Gorbachev and others that the U.S. would not expand NATO eastward worked well in mollifying Russia and encouraging it to withdraw its own troops from Eastern Europe, allowed the unification of Germany, and ultimately won independence for Ukraine. It encouraged the initial break-up of the Soviet Union and at least opened up the possibility of dramatic democratic change within Russia. Breaking those oral promises and expanding NATO to the East had precisely the opposite effect.

Russian borders have moved far to the West as a result of WWII, as have Polish borders. Russia has no further claim on Polish lands. So what is it with Polish authoritarianism and paranoia toward Russia today?

I do not defend Russian imperial instincts, pan-Slavism, Putin’s interfering in Ukraine, or his invasion. The huge Czarist and then Soviet Empires, like the giant existing Russian Federation, for historical reasons developed under conditions extremely hostile to democracy, and Russian political culture is today still profoundly reactionary, statist and hostile to “rule of law.” The “oil curse” is another factor at work there.

Russia should have been handled more carefully by the West. Perhaps it would have made no difference. All we can say is Russian state paranoia runs deep and our policies did not help. Having NATO membership and its “guarantee of protection” in case of war may ironically be giving countries like Poland a dangerous sense of invulnerability and encouraging their own desire to “rectify historical injustices” against Russia. Russian aggression in Eastern Europe — with or without Ukraine (or hypothetically Poland) being in NATO and on the front line — would bring a mobilization of NATO countries and force them to be more responsible for their own self defense. They are already realizing they have been too complacent.

The idea of a “neutral” Austria and Finland worked even when paranoid Stalin was alive. It is hardly inconceivable that a neutral Ukraine would have been a better goal for U.S. foreign policy, and even for Ukraine itself.

But we are where we are. The past cannot be changed. We must defend Ukraine against this Russian attempt to destroy it. Crimea is slightly different. There remains — we have all but ignored this except in the case of Kosovo — still an internationally recognized “right of self determination” — which means that there are real possibilities for a diplomatic settlement over Crimea which is not aimed at satisfying either all Ukrainian or all Russian claims.

 

[Kruska]

That was the original deal....PedoPete wouldn't go for that and caused the poor people of Ukraine be his blood pawns.

AFAIK, there was no such deal - also no such deal under Trump - it was simply a DEMAND expressed, forwarded by Putin, latest since 2008.

 

[Kruska]

Why do people keep repeating the nonsense about Russia invading Ukraine in 2014? there was no invasion, and the news is whats left of Ukraine when this is over will never be in Nato, Nato shouldn't even exist, it's way past it's sell by date, it's no more than a foreign Legion for US Global hegemony and a cash cow for the industrial military complex, but it will go down either on it's own or be taken down.

Aside from the true cause - in regards to the never ending NATO eastward expansion and their global warmongering since 1990 - Russia aka Putin occupied (invaded) Crimea - ignoring the fact that it is part of a sovereign Ukraine, acknowledged by the UN, and also Russia (his predecessor Jelzin, officially recognized Ukraine's independence and that of it's territory in 1990/91).

The deployment of the Russian army onto Ukraine's sovereign territory (Donbas and Luhansk) in 2014 - also equates that of a military invasion. Independent of wanting to safeguard Russian-Ukrainians - he would have needed a UN mandate to do so legally.