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I was pretty specific there. And we can all claim rights on pretty much anything. For example I'd like to claim the right to not have to pay higher premiums because I'm also paying for the uninsured; I'd like to claim the right to not have to watch my child wait three times longer in the ER because the uninsured are using it as a doctor's office.Having everyone on at least a fundamental, Medicare-like system is:
1. Good economics, as having easy access to preventive and diagnostic services catches non-acute problems before they become far more expensive, acute issues
2. Good business, as it would take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American businesses, which have no reason to be involved in health care on any level
3. One sign of an intelligent, advanced society that values human life and quality of life, as it understands that we are no longer hamstrung by an Old West mentality
Our already-functioning Medicare/Medicare Advantage/Medicare Supplement system would accomplish all of the above, and it would maintain a dynamic competitive free market insurance landscape.
And oh, by the way: Would anyone like to defend the fact that we currently have SEVEN DIFFERENT DELIVERY/PAYMENT SYSTEMS in this country, NONE of which communicates seamlessly with the others?
1. Group Health
2. Individual Health (ACA)
3. Medicare
4. Medicaid
5. VA
6. Worker's Compensation
7. Indigent
Would anyone like to stand up and tell us this is smart? Go ahead. Knock it out of the park.
.
I would reply this way---------> exactly WHEN did healthcare and higher education start rising much faster than inflation? ANSWER----->when the government got involved. Affordable healthcare was lost BECAUSE of the government, just as it was for higher education.
I challenge anyone to look at the timelines for BOTH products, and this will instantly become apparent.
Also, I again ask-----------> how can you give someone a RIGHT if it denies others their rights, regardless if it is for the GOOD of the people or not! I am older. Suppose from the time I was 18, I worked on a drug that could cure cancer. It took me years, upon years, and after getting investors to pay for the trials, it is discovered that it will cure EVERY FORM OF CANCER known to man!
How much is that worth!
Doesn't make a difference, because if I charge what it is worth under the patent that I have exclusive rights to, the government healthcare system would go BROKE! I would be EVIL. And yet, the reason I did it was NOT for just humanity, but also for profit.
So which solution would the lefties choose----------> go broke, or force my company to sell it cheap; in essence DENYING me my rights!
Why would I be happy about people being forced to give up assets to a government which has no legal authority to take them?
Look don't tell me you are for poor people with health problems getting health care as long as you aren't "forced" to do it. That's just you being head strong or making an empty excuse.
I am for the rule of law, not emotion.
Another excuse. The U.S. is the richest country in the world and all the countries in the world with the top life expectancy and quality of life have universal healthcare.
The country is not rich--we have people that are rich. Our country is 20 trillion in debt, and I would hardly call that rich.
So when you say we are the richest country in the world, what you really mean is that we have the richest people in the world--and that is true. However, just because we have the richest people in the world does not mean they should be footing the bill for those that are not rich.
Then you reject public education?
Which, if you think about it, is universal education, using the healthcare terminology.
I agree about having either socialized or universal health care system......not sure of the differences between those two though. Either way, I do think everyone should have the right to quality care & RX. Of course most complain about having to pay for others........but I see it as a process. Getting more people into the workforce & off assistance means more people are paying into it thereby keeping costs down. It would also stop companies such as Mylan from price gouging. And stop a lot of the unnecessary bs insurance companies demand of a patient before approving procedures that should have been done first up. It would definitely allow DR's to treat the problem, not just the symptoms
No. I am against people being forced involuntarily into a government charity scheme for which there is no Constitutional authority.
Sounds to me like you use that as an excuse. If you want people to get healthy and become members of the workforce you should be happy about the end result period.
Why would I be happy about people being forced to give up assets to a government which has no legal authority to take them?
Look don't tell me you are for poor people with health problems getting health care as long as you aren't "forced" to do it. That's just you being head strong or making an empty excuse.
I am for the rule of law, not emotion.
Another excuse. The U.S. is the richest country in the world and all the countries in the world with the top life expectancy and quality of life have universal healthcare.
You can't use the experience of just a couple people "You know" as how things really are. I knew someone that had agoraphobia so bad they couldn't leave their house without a panic attack and Crohn's Disease so bad they bled out of their ass every day. It took them the max amount of tries, then a refile, and the max amount of tries again to get approved. It took them 8 years, had lost everything they had, and was living in a homeless shelter by the time they got approved.
People on social programs. Every time this subject comes up in the media, their first concern is what about the poor people? Well, what about the working people is my question?
Working people are the ones who are paying for the non-working, and some of us working people don't have coverage ourselves. In the meantime, the poor are popping out kids like a popcorn machine and the rest of us have to support them including their medical.
You ever think there might be some people poor and not working because of medical problems they didn't have insurance to help them with?
How are the problems of individuals legally the problem of other individuals with whom there is no relation? By what authority does a government reach into an individual's pocket to cover the negligence - or simple bad luck - of another individual?
So you are against people getting healthy so they can work and become contributing members of society? So does this mean you are for just taking sick people behind the woodshed and shooting them like a horse with a broken leg?
No. I am against people being forced involuntarily into a government charity scheme for which there is no Constitutional authority.
Until you're in need of course.
I was pretty specific there. And we can all claim rights on pretty much anything. For example I'd like to claim the right to not have to pay higher premiums because I'm also paying for the uninsured; I'd like to claim the right to not have to watch my child wait three times longer in the ER because the uninsured are using it as a doctor's office.Having everyone on at least a fundamental, Medicare-like system is:
1. Good economics, as having easy access to preventive and diagnostic services catches non-acute problems before they become far more expensive, acute issues
2. Good business, as it would take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American businesses, which have no reason to be involved in health care on any level
3. One sign of an intelligent, advanced society that values human life and quality of life, as it understands that we are no longer hamstrung by an Old West mentality
Our already-functioning Medicare/Medicare Advantage/Medicare Supplement system would accomplish all of the above, and it would maintain a dynamic competitive free market insurance landscape.
And oh, by the way: Would anyone like to defend the fact that we currently have SEVEN DIFFERENT DELIVERY/PAYMENT SYSTEMS in this country, NONE of which communicates seamlessly with the others?
1. Group Health
2. Individual Health (ACA)
3. Medicare
4. Medicaid
5. VA
6. Worker's Compensation
7. Indigent
Would anyone like to stand up and tell us this is smart? Go ahead. Knock it out of the park.
.
I would reply this way---------> exactly WHEN did healthcare and higher education start rising much faster than inflation? ANSWER----->when the government got involved. Affordable healthcare was lost BECAUSE of the government, just as it was for higher education.
I challenge anyone to look at the timelines for BOTH products, and this will instantly become apparent.
Also, I again ask-----------> how can you give someone a RIGHT if it denies others their rights, regardless if it is for the GOOD of the people or not! I am older. Suppose from the time I was 18, I worked on a drug that could cure cancer. It took me years, upon years, and after getting investors to pay for the trials, it is discovered that it will cure EVERY FORM OF CANCER known to man!
How much is that worth!
Doesn't make a difference, because if I charge what it is worth under the patent that I have exclusive rights to, the government healthcare system would go BROKE! I would be EVIL. And yet, the reason I did it was NOT for just humanity, but also for profit.
So which solution would the lefties choose----------> go broke, or force my company to sell it cheap; in essence DENYING me my rights!
There are several specific, non-political and informed points in my post, and I'd love the see them refuted.
.
Liar. You said she couldn't receive a right she wasn't born with.Natural rights are inalienable. Legal rights are granted by law. That means rights granted by government stupid.I live in a country where everyone who is born is entitled to healthcare until the day they die.....
...Health care is a right. I wasn't born with it but all my children and grandchildren were.
Then please stay in thst country and keep your nose out of American Society. It may be a Right in your country, but it most definitely is not here. If it ever becomes one, I'll be dead.
She claims it is a right in her country, BUT she says she wasn't born with that right. How the fuck does that happen? Well, it happens because the government gives them health care now but didn't when she was born. In other words, that colossal idiot thinks rights come from government.
That means we here in the US do not have a right to healthcare. Just like I said stupid.
Why would I be happy about people being forced to give up assets to a government which has no legal authority to take them?
Look don't tell me you are for poor people with health problems getting health care as long as you aren't "forced" to do it. That's just you being head strong or making an empty excuse.
I am for the rule of law, not emotion.
Another excuse. The U.S. is the richest country in the world and all the countries in the world with the top life expectancy and quality of life have universal healthcare.
The country is not rich--we have people that are rich. Our country is 20 trillion in debt, and I would hardly call that rich.
So when you say we are the richest country in the world, what you really mean is that we have the richest people in the world--and that is true. However, just because we have the richest people in the world does not mean they should be footing the bill for those that are not rich.
Then you reject public education?
Which, if you think about it, is universal education, using the healthcare terminology.
Natural rights are inalienable. Legal rights are granted by law. That means rights granted by government stupid.I live in a country where everyone who is born is entitled to healthcare until the day they die.....
...Health care is a right. I wasn't born with it but all my children and grandchildren were.
Then please stay in thst country and keep your nose out of American Society. It may be a Right in your country, but it most definitely is not here. If it ever becomes one, I'll be dead.
She claims it is a right in her country, BUT she says she wasn't born with that right. How the fuck does that happen? Well, it happens because the government gives them health care now but didn't when she was born. In other words, that colossal idiot thinks rights come from government.
That means we here in the US do not have a right to healthcare. Just like I said stupid.
See Pred, that just shows how clueless leftists really are, lol.
I heard a great example of why the healthcare system needs competition, not government interference--------->
How many Americans would like a Corvette? What do they cost? Lets say; for the sake of argument, they average 70,000 bucks!
That is NOT fair says the lefties, EVERYONE should have a Corvette if they want one. They make it a RIGHT for every American if they so desire, to have a Corvette, and because the price is soooooooo high, they demand that the evil GM lower the price to 40,000 bucks. All lefties cheer wildly in the streets!
So what is the problem says all these genius lefties!
PROBLEM---------> GM can't build the Corvette with all its content for 40,000, and make a profit. In fact, they LOSE money on every Corvette they sell at that price. Besides that, without the profit, they can no longer RESEARCH (nor would they want to) new improvements for the vehicles; and in fact, have to make the vehicle with LESS content at that price, to even come close to breaking even.
So what does the NEW GOVERNMENT MANDATED Corvette look like? Well, they all have stick shifts, 4 cylinder engines, no air, no radio, cheap tires, bad paint, awful interiors, shoddily built, and besides that........it takes 24 months to get them because GM really doesn't want to sell it to you at that price to start with. (think RATIONING)
But the lefties? The lefties! They sit their and tell you how they are brilliant because of their intervention, they just got you a Corvette for cheap, and everybody has one!
People on social programs. Every time this subject comes up in the media, their first concern is what about the poor people? Well, what about the working people is my question?
Working people are the ones who are paying for the non-working, and some of us working people don't have coverage ourselves. In the meantime, the poor are popping out kids like a popcorn machine and the rest of us have to support them including their medical.
So poor children and the elderly who are poor should go without?
Do you have a good argument as to why those groups should be punished for doing no wrong?
Do you have a good argument why those who support themselves should be punished for doing no wrong?
If you consider contributing to the greater good a punishment then you don't belong in America.
If you consider "contributing to the greater good" at gunpoint is American, you're a victim of the public school system.
We could make all taxes voluntary and stop having a country.
Is that your choice?
I clearly stated two rights that I am claiming. Are your rights more important than mine?I was pretty specific there. And we can all claim rights on pretty much anything. For example I'd like to claim the right to not have to pay higher premiums because I'm also paying for the uninsured; I'd like to claim the right to not have to watch my child wait three times longer in the ER because the uninsured are using it as a doctor's office.Having everyone on at least a fundamental, Medicare-like system is:
1. Good economics, as having easy access to preventive and diagnostic services catches non-acute problems before they become far more expensive, acute issues
2. Good business, as it would take a massive cost monkey off the backs of American businesses, which have no reason to be involved in health care on any level
3. One sign of an intelligent, advanced society that values human life and quality of life, as it understands that we are no longer hamstrung by an Old West mentality
Our already-functioning Medicare/Medicare Advantage/Medicare Supplement system would accomplish all of the above, and it would maintain a dynamic competitive free market insurance landscape.
And oh, by the way: Would anyone like to defend the fact that we currently have SEVEN DIFFERENT DELIVERY/PAYMENT SYSTEMS in this country, NONE of which communicates seamlessly with the others?
1. Group Health
2. Individual Health (ACA)
3. Medicare
4. Medicaid
5. VA
6. Worker's Compensation
7. Indigent
Would anyone like to stand up and tell us this is smart? Go ahead. Knock it out of the park.
.
I would reply this way---------> exactly WHEN did healthcare and higher education start rising much faster than inflation? ANSWER----->when the government got involved. Affordable healthcare was lost BECAUSE of the government, just as it was for higher education.
I challenge anyone to look at the timelines for BOTH products, and this will instantly become apparent.
Also, I again ask-----------> how can you give someone a RIGHT if it denies others their rights, regardless if it is for the GOOD of the people or not! I am older. Suppose from the time I was 18, I worked on a drug that could cure cancer. It took me years, upon years, and after getting investors to pay for the trials, it is discovered that it will cure EVERY FORM OF CANCER known to man!
How much is that worth!
Doesn't make a difference, because if I charge what it is worth under the patent that I have exclusive rights to, the government healthcare system would go BROKE! I would be EVIL. And yet, the reason I did it was NOT for just humanity, but also for profit.
So which solution would the lefties choose----------> go broke, or force my company to sell it cheap; in essence DENYING me my rights!
There are several specific, non-political and informed points in my post, and I'd love the see them refuted.
.
I will refute EVERYTHING in that post, this way, and do not even have to read them-------->
We are in America! Our rights are NEGATIVE rights, given to us by our American bill of rights.
What do I mean?
It means that our rights are based upon what the government can NOT do to us, not what they will do FOR us.
To set up what you want, changes the whole system that made our country great. You are basically insisting that the government GIVES us something, which is a right. To give somebody something tangible as a right, you have to DENY someone their rights, which is against the original American bill of rights.
I challenge YOU to find ANYTHING that is tangible or that has a monetary cost that the government can offer, that to do so would NOT deny someone else their rights in some fashion! That is why our founding fathers designed NEGATIVE rights; which made them absolutely brilliant, and created the greatest country the world has ever been witness to. To start trying to change that opens a can of worms that will eventually destroy us.
Of all the stupid arguments that leftists make, the "Right to Healthcare" is the stupidest.
Of all the stupid arguments that leftists make, the "Right to Healthcare" is the stupidest.
Oh, I dunno. "No borders" gives it a run.
Of all the stupid arguments that leftists make, the "Right to Healthcare" is the stupidest.
Oh, I dunno. "No borders" gives it a run.
Actually I was thinking the right to marriage is up there as well.
Having everyone on at least a fundamental, Medicare-like system is:.....
.
It's a stupid argument? That legal rights are granted by government?Liar. You said she couldn't receive a right she wasn't born with.Natural rights are inalienable. Legal rights are granted by law. That means rights granted by government stupid.Then please stay in thst country and keep your nose out of American Society. It may be a Right in your country, but it most definitely is not here. If it ever becomes one, I'll be dead.
She claims it is a right in her country, BUT she says she wasn't born with that right. How the fuck does that happen? Well, it happens because the government gives them health care now but didn't when she was born. In other words, that colossal idiot thinks rights come from government.
That means we here in the US do not have a right to healthcare. Just like I said stupid.
No dipshit, I'm running with your argument. I don't agree with it, it's a stupid argument but if I go with it it proves my original point that we do not have a right to healthcare. Did I break that down in simple enough terms for you to understand?
Natural rights are inalienable. Legal rights are granted by law. That means rights granted by government stupid.Then please stay in thst country and keep your nose out of American Society. It may be a Right in your country, but it most definitely is not here. If it ever becomes one, I'll be dead.
She claims it is a right in her country, BUT she says she wasn't born with that right. How the fuck does that happen? Well, it happens because the government gives them health care now but didn't when she was born. In other words, that colossal idiot thinks rights come from government.
That means we here in the US do not have a right to healthcare. Just like I said stupid.
See Pred, that just shows how clueless leftists really are, lol.
I heard a great example of why the healthcare system needs competition, not government interference--------->
How many Americans would like a Corvette? What do they cost? Lets say; for the sake of argument, they average 70,000 bucks!
That is NOT fair says the lefties, EVERYONE should have a Corvette if they want one. They make it a RIGHT for every American if they so desire, to have a Corvette, and because the price is soooooooo high, they demand that the evil GM lower the price to 40,000 bucks. All lefties cheer wildly in the streets!
So what is the problem says all these genius lefties!
PROBLEM---------> GM can't build the Corvette with all its content for 40,000, and make a profit. In fact, they LOSE money on every Corvette they sell at that price. Besides that, without the profit, they can no longer RESEARCH (nor would they want to) new improvements for the vehicles; and in fact, have to make the vehicle with LESS content at that price, to even come close to breaking even.
So what does the NEW GOVERNMENT MANDATED Corvette look like? Well, they all have stick shifts, 4 cylinder engines, no air, no radio, cheap tires, bad paint, awful interiors, shoddily built, and besides that........it takes 24 months to get them because GM really doesn't want to sell it to you at that price to start with. (think RATIONING)
But the lefties? The lefties! They sit their and tell you how they are brilliant because of their intervention, they just got you a Corvette for cheap, and everybody has one!
Of all the stupid arguments that leftists make, the "Right to Healthcare" is the stupidest.
Who should go without?
Well, other industrialized nations can afford it. Of course most of them aren't engaged in the costly wars for profit that we are. Then there's our for sale politicians in league with the health insurers. Even obama, who people call a liberal, made sure that the ACA kept them in the game.
Universal healthcare is a GREAT idea. Now. How do we afford it?
They are orders of magnitude smaller than we are, and the ones that actually are able to afford are also oil rich. Norway has a population less than that of the State of Minnesota. California has a population of 37 million give or take, and they calculated the cost of giving universal health care at 400 billion. Their current TOTAL state budget is 185 billion. So, where do you get the rest of it?
Here's a quick list of countries with universal health care below. What good is it calling ourselves great if we can't do something as basic as keeping our own citizens healthy?
View attachment 137813
Countries with universal health care include Austria,Belarus, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland,France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy,Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, the Netherlands,Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Spain,Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom.
Canada's system is so great that their politicians would rather come here to the USA, and PAY for their care, than wait for their surgeries back home. Not exactly a compelling argument. Take a look at the quality of their health care, and I mean look at the problems, not the rosy tales that you are limiting yourself to. And then get back to us.
They are orders of magnitude smaller than we are, and the ones that actually are able to afford are also oil rich. Norway has a population less than that of the State of Minnesota. California has a population of 37 million give or take, and they calculated the cost of giving universal health care at 400 billion. Their current TOTAL state budget is 185 billion. So, where do you get the rest of it?
Here's a quick list of countries with universal health care below. What good is it calling ourselves great if we can't do something as basic as keeping our own citizens healthy?
View attachment 137813
Countries with universal health care include Austria,Belarus, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland,France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy,Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, the Netherlands,Norway, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Spain,Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom.
Canada's system is so great that their politicians would rather come here to the USA, and PAY for their care, than wait for their surgeries back home. Not exactly a compelling argument. Take a look at the quality of their health care, and I mean look at the problems, not the rosy tales that you are limiting yourself to. And then get back to us.
Bullshit. One Canadian politician came to the US for treatment - a billionaire, with cancer. I have Canadian friends who have had heart attacks in the US and asked to be flown back to Canada for treatment rather than be subjected to US health care.
No system is without problems, but those who need immediate care get it immediately regardless of income. And it's quality care. Not the third rate care that public hospitals give to indigent patients in the US.
Wrong. It was two. Danny millions came here for his heart surgery.....
'Danny Millions' Williams heads south for heart surgery | Toronto Star
And Stronach came here for her cancer surgery....
Stronach travels to U.S. for cancer treatment
Belinda Stronach went to California for some of her breast cancer treatment earlier this year.
Stronach travels to U.S. for cancer treatment | Toronto Star
And THOUSANDS of Canadians travel to the US EVERY year for their treatment. That THEY have to pay for. How many from the US go north for their treatment?
Canadians seek treatment abroad
The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.
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In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."
Canadians could expect to wait 9.8 weeks for medically necessary treatment after seeing a specialist in 2014, the researchers found, three weeks more than the time physicians considered to be clinically "reasonable."
The public health care system sends some Canadians abroad for treatment partly because of a lack of available local resources, the report says.
