If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The Declaration of Independence is not 'law,' it is devoid of authority, and it neither codifies nor sanctions any religious dogma as the 'basis' of government, including Christianity.

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SCOTUS consults Declaration a lot, especially Scalia. THe principles contained in the Declaration are based on God's natural law.

“That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” —Declaration of Independence

The Bible declares God to be the Creator (Is. 40:28; 1 Pet. 4:19; Gen. 1:1, 27).

As Creator, God is the one who gave mankind all of the unalienable rights listed in the Declaration—see also Genesis 2:7.

God is the giver of liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).

Finally, God has given to mankind the “pursuit of happiness” (Eccl. 3:13; James 1:17).

 

[peach174]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

Who gives a fuck? Reality and history don't get washed away because you want to be appease people's delusions. The Declaration of Independence clearly states:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
​

The basis upon which America was established is plainly expressed. The America you know is built upon a Christian foundation of understanding man's place in God's universe.

Now the question before us is what path we take on the question of human equality when God's commands on this factor are erased. Nature SHOWS us that humans are not equal, so on what basis do we continue the pantomime - there's no more appealing to God's commands.

As already correctly noted, the Declaration of Independence is not a document of the law, it's completely devoid of any legal authority and codifies no particular kind of governance.


Its reference to 'god' is rhetorical, common speech of the time, seeking the authority of no deity.


And its reference to 'god' is not that of a Christian 'god' nor the deity of any other faith, hence the ridiculous premise of your thread.

When it say's creator that means one God, the creator of the universe and it was far from rhetorical.
Yes if does. This is why it is always printed with our Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence (1776) A statement of principles in which the 13 American colonies justified their separation from Great Britain. Famous for its combination of ideals and practical statements, the Declaration proclaims that government is responsible to its people and must be ruled by the consent of the governed.
This is taught in all of our public schools. Where were you? Absent that day?

But not everyone in this country believes their creator to be only one god...does that mean the Founders didn't think the Dec of Ind and our Country's laws applied to non-christians?

Not everyone did back then either, but they all understood it's meaning.
It applies to everyone.
We all have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness regardless of your beliefs.
It means that our government run by mankind is not to take that away and they are doing it.
Our government is making laws that are taking away those very basic rights.
They are violating every single one of our bill of rights and have been for a very long time and both parties are doing it.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Our government is making laws that are taking away those very basic rights.
They are violating every single one of our bill of rights and have been for a very long time and both parties are doing it.

if so you would not be so afraid to present your best example? What do you learn from your fear?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Hitler was christian and often quoted christian tenets to do what he did.

while historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian - a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler's Table Talk.[4] Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."[5] Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler's long term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany,[6] while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.[7]

 

[Antares]

Still waiting for proof that people are created unequally...

Inequality is a human construct.....as is "Equality".

The fallacy of either is that everyone should have exactly the same "stuff" or that ALL outcomes should be exactly the same.

Equality is simply everyone having he same opportunity....and in the US we do.

MOST people would NEVER make the trade off it takes to be "rich" with "new money".

 

[Antares]

I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.” ​

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

Since the Constitution has codified the principles of equal rights, who needs God?

If the Constitution codified that people hop around on one leg, how viable is it to enforce such a silly notion? We are not created equal, we are not equal, nature has made us unequal, there is no godly command that we have been created equal. Why should we pretend to adhere to the silly notion that we are equal and have equal rights? Why not align our governing principles with the reality of life?

Most people are apparently smarter than you are.

Not you kid, never you.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

No, no. Without this......"that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", there is no constitution.

Of course there is. But if anyone insisted, it can be rewritten (clumsily) as "The majority of Americans agree that we have certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Why would they do something so silly? The world before them shows them that this isn't so? Unalienable? Where would that notion find origin?

We could rewrite it even more clumsily as most people agreeing that those rights are unalienable.

That's what the Constitution really means, anyway. If it had some basis in God, then the Supreme Court would consult the Bible for their decisions.

It simply means that those rights, unalienable, are bestowed upon them by their creator. They can't be taken away.....at least according to our founders. If government could abolish them, or restrict them at any time, then they are simply a privilege rather than a right.

Actually, rights CAN be taken away by a legitimate government...it happens all the time....but for it to be legitimate it must be by due process of law.

Its just that our founders recognized that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were bestowed by our creator. No one may rightfully deny us these things. Nor, since they are unalienable, may we rightfully surrender them.

 

[peach174]

Our government is making laws that are taking away those very basic rights.
They are violating every single one of our bill of rights and have been for a very long time and both parties are doing it.

if so you would not be so afraid to present your best example? What do you learn from your fear?

I don't have the time right now. There are quite a few of them.
I will try to answer this tomorrow.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

Who gives a fuck? Reality and history don't get washed away because you want to be appease people's delusions. The Declaration of Independence clearly states:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
​

The basis upon which America was established is plainly expressed. The America you know is built upon a Christian foundation of understanding man's place in God's universe.

Now the question before us is what path we take on the question of human equality when God's commands on this factor are erased. Nature SHOWS us that humans are not equal, so on what basis do we continue the pantomime - there's no more appealing to God's commands.

What makes you think that "their Creator" always refers to a christian god? Besides your own arrogance, that is.

We didn't have any Ancient Egyptians coming across on the Mayflower who chose to worship their Sun God Ra.

98 percent of the colonists were protestants. The other 1 percent or so were catholic.

98 + 1 = ?

Does that mean that the Constitution applies only to that 99%?

So you're saying the remaining one percenters can do whatever they want? Lol.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

MOST people would NEVER make the trade off it takes to be "rich" with "new money".

very true, its so much easier to bitch and moan and steal than to start working at birth to get into the Ivy League. And who wants those 80 hour weeks anyway.

 

[bodecea]

So..what I get from your post there is that you have to put up a ridiculous, very very very very very unlikely thing to happen................to make your point.

Yeah.....that's a powerful argument right there.

Where would the silly notion of human equality arise? To put that cockamamie notion into a new Constitution when no one on Earth had ever believed such nonsense would, in fact, be just as silly as putting in the requirement that people hop around on one leg.

Throughout history gods of various forms have been the instrument used to compel compliance with, and fealty to, a particular notion. Remove the stick of god and human equality becomes a daft notion when all before us is abundant evidence that no such equality exists.

And christianity is no different in that regard.

 

[Antares]

MOST people would NEVER make the trade off it takes to be "rich" with "new money".

very true, its so much easier to bitch and moan and steal than to start working at birth to get into the Ivy League. And who wants those 80 hour weeks anyway.

Not me, my family my makes me rich.

 

[Rikurzhen]

So..what I get from your post there is that you have to put up a ridiculous, very very very very very unlikely thing to happen................to make your point.

Yeah.....that's a powerful argument right there.

Where would the silly notion of human equality arise? To put that cockamamie notion into a new Constitution when no one on Earth had ever believed such nonsense would, in fact, be just as silly as putting in the requirement that people hop around on one leg.

Throughout history gods of various forms have been the instrument used to compel compliance with, and fealty to, a particular notion. Remove the stick of god and human equality becomes a daft notion when all before us is abundant evidence that no such equality exists.

And christianity is no different in that regard.

Did I say otherwise?

 

[ricechickie]

It simply means that those rights, unalienable, are bestowed upon them by their creator. They can't be taken away.....at least according to our founders. If government could abolish them, or restrict them at any time, then they are simply a privilege rather than a right.

Exactly. It wasn't really God that's being quoted, it's our founders. Our founders decided (with some religious and traditional support) that those rights are unalienable. As a people, as a nation, we can agree (and really, already have agreed) to the same thing.

 

[koshergrl]

It goes back further, to the magna carta. These are Christian concepts.

 

[ricechickie]

It goes back further, to the magna carta. These are Christian concepts.

And yet we didn't simply adopt the Magna Carta. The founders adapted and borrowed and wrote the Constitution.

 

[koshergrl]

We adopted the premise.

And the premise is that men are equal...a premise that is attributed directly to God.

 

[ricechickie]

We adopted the premise.

And the premise is that men are equal...a premise that is attributed directly to God.

Who heard God say it first?

Don't bother. I hope you know it's a rhetorical question, designed to point out that man always has to interpret what God wants and knows.

 

[koshergrl]

Lol.

I hope you know you're coming off as an ignorant rube.

 

[ricechickie]

Lol.

I hope you know you're coming off as an ignorant rube.

Luckily, I don't put much stock in what others think of me.

Anything to actually discuss? Or do we end it on that note of rudeness?