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I have no problem with people saying the believe in a god or anything else. I only have a problem when they state that their belief is the "truth". I'm not accusing you of doing this but I'm just clarifying my position.I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?
It's ok if we disagree. However, I'm not sure we do.
You say that everyone makes decisions based upon what they see as right vs wrong. But that is all about perspective. You and I might well see the exact same situation, from our own perspective, with me seeing option A as right and you seeing it as wrong. When I say there is no right vs wrong, I am talking about the concept of an absolute.
Is it wrong to intentionally kill a child? Most would say yes, but what if you are a bombardier flying over a city in a war. You are most certainly about to kill any number of children. Is it still wrong? From the perspective of the parent holding one of those children below, is it right?
Most decisions in life are mundane. They aren't about Right vs Wrong, they are about convenience vs inconvenience. When we are faced with true moral decisions, it is never about absolutes.
Okay...
You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...
So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?
If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?
I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...
Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...
Ok. Let's take them in turn....
Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.
Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?
Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?
I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.
I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.
In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.
Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.
You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.
No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan
A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. David Stevens
Theists often state God is outside of time. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.
The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ignorant bliss and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Richard Dawkins
I dont feel frightened by not knowing things, I think its much more interesting that way I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but Im not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I cant figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesnt frighten me. Richard Feynman
Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.
The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.
Until we understand something we do not know. Positing a god in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.
The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.
Everything you just wrote is unsupported opinion. It means nothing and carries no weight. It is nothing more than belief with a different colored wrapper. I am especially unimpressed with Sagan's quote. What does "extraordinary" mean? Who gets to decide where the line is on that? It is merely a justification for belief, not the foundation of a rational conclusion. There are only claims and evidence. Extraneous adjectives are flowery but pointless.
Provide me with a definition of god supported by factual evidence, then we can begin. Until then, any opinion has no greater worth than any other. Saying your opinion is superior is pretty much what all religions do. But sans evidence, it is just one more expression of faith.
I have no problem with people saying the believe in a god or anything else. I only have a problem when they state that their belief is the "truth". I'm not accusing you of doing this but I'm just clarifying my position.I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?
I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.
Methinks he's paranoid.
And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....
I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.
In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.
Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.
You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.
No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan
A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. David Stevens
Theists often state God is outside of time. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.
The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ignorant bliss and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Richard Dawkins
I dont feel frightened by not knowing things, I think its much more interesting that way I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but Im not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I cant figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesnt frighten me. Richard Feynman
Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.
The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.
Until we understand something we do not know. Positing a god in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.
The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.
BTW, you asked me the question so I should give you an answer. Why do I believe in God? I think it likely that I don't, at least your idea of God that I glean from your posts. You seem to be very Christian centered and I am not a Christian.
I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?
Finally some honesty. 
If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?
If you do believe in God, why?
I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.
Methinks he's paranoid.
And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.
Methinks he's paranoid.
And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.
Methinks he's paranoid.
And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
worship god or go to hell.
If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?
One cannot not believe in something that doesn't exist to begin with.
????
[MENTION=29614]C_Clayton_Jones[/MENTION]
Do you mean exist in your mind?
If someone believes the "sun revolves around the earth,"
or the "earth is flat," you mean the earth has to exist to have beliefs about it?
I actually agree, in a way, the issue is not whether people believe in Jesus or God,
but WHAT we believe about their "meanings" that determines true or false, right or wrong.
If people believe in a VENGEFUL God/Jesus the problem is believing in retribution as something we can decide as judge/jury/executioner.
Is this what you mean? You can't have a belief ABOUT something if it doesn't represent a CONCEPT in your mind? I believe Jesus represents Justice, so this could explain that. Thanks CCJ!
I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.
Methinks he's paranoid.
And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
I seem to be getting worse at spelling with age. But I don't have the time to spell check for you.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
I think we all get the intent of a comment like that. And without it, you got nothin.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
Nonsense.
Acknowledging the fact that there is no 'god' as perceived by theists is neither 'anti-Christian' nor being a 'bigot.'
Indeed, it's the arrogance, ignorance, intolerance, hate, and stupidity exhibited by you and many other Christians that reflects poorly on your faith.
My point is, you are patently and certifiably stupid and you are undone when you call OTHER people stupid, while you are inacpable of #1, understanding the written word, and #2, using it yourself.
Telling you that "you are going to meet God" is not a threat. I'm not God. For all I know, you could be saved this evening, and when you meet God it will be a joyous event.
Besides which..if you don't believe in God, how on earth could you perceive meeting him as a threat?
The disorganized thinking and ignorance of anti-Christian bigots/progressive nutbags never fails to amaze me. You have to work at it to be that stupid.
Nonsense.
Acknowledging the fact that there is no 'god' as perceived by theists is neither 'anti-Christian' nor being a 'bigot.'
Indeed, it's the arrogance, ignorance, intolerance, hate, and stupidity exhibited by you and many other Christians that reflects poorly on your faith.
They even admit that the adam and eve story is just that, a story. 7 out of 10 of them anyways admit it. And then you have the BOSS' who don't believe in Christianity or Muslim or Jew. He knows those are made up but still believes.
They also sometimes use science to argue. Bad science but hey, science can't disprove an imaginary guy in the sky so why can't he use bad science too? Science even shows us that god comes from the most primitive part of the brain. Boss says there is no primitive part of the brain. Like my dad says, "If science says this all happened by chance then they are stupid". Really dad? You have a high school education and science has done everything it can to lay it all out there why/how there is no god. Why there is no god
He'll blow it off as a lefty atheist crazy website and even argue the points they make, which are pretty much unarguable. If there was there would be a theist website and the atheist website would be more than happy to link to it because that is exactly what that site is. A reply to what theists say. The most common 46 things a theist says and what to say back.
My favorite: Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.
Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"
Nonsense.
Acknowledging the fact that there is no 'god' as perceived by theists is neither 'anti-Christian' nor being a 'bigot.'
Indeed, it's the arrogance, ignorance, intolerance, hate, and stupidity exhibited by you and many other Christians that reflects poorly on your faith.
They even admit that the adam and eve story is just that, a story. 7 out of 10 of them anyways admit it. And then you have the BOSS' who don't believe in Christianity or Muslim or Jew. He knows those are made up but still believes.
They also sometimes use science to argue. Bad science but hey, science can't disprove an imaginary guy in the sky so why can't he use bad science too? Science even shows us that god comes from the most primitive part of the brain. Boss says there is no primitive part of the brain. Like my dad says, "If science says this all happened by chance then they are stupid". Really dad? You have a high school education and science has done everything it can to lay it all out there why/how there is no god. Why there is no god
He'll blow it off as a lefty atheist crazy website and even argue the points they make, which are pretty much unarguable. If there was there would be a theist website and the atheist website would be more than happy to link to it because that is exactly what that site is. A reply to what theists say. The most common 46 things a theist says and what to say back.
My favorite: Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.
Which would be consistent with the fact that there is no 'god' as perceived by theists.
I have no problem with people saying the believe in a god or anything else. I only have a problem when they state that their belief is the "truth". I'm not accusing you of doing this but I'm just clarifying my position.I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?
Okay...
You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...
So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?
If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?
I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...
Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...
Ok. Let's take them in turn....
Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.
Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?
Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?
I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.
These are excuses, there are numerous ways to get help besides stealing...
Ignore the other driver, best choice, anything else is wrong...
The bombardier is the tough one I will agree, but they had a choice somewhere...
The use of absolute is for conjecture only, people are inherently born with this knowledge of right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...
