If you don't believe in God...

[sealybobo]

More truth

I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer.


that's not the point, there being a God, it is the goal to have your Spirit set free to experience the Everlasting however long that might last as a self rewarding possibility granted to those who are living ... there was no Deity to greet you at birth but it was not your parents that gave you life or this planet, it was the Everlasting and logic alone concludes a directive whether one or many and matters only in survival and nothing else.

.

I think I see what you are saying, but let me boil it down and tell me if I'm right.

God is irrelevant.

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Anonymous

 

[sealybobo]

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” – Carl Sagan

“God is an ever-receding pocket of ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller as time goes on.”- Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[sealybobo]

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

 

[sealybobo]

Then I apologize for questioning your response. But I will also add that most of the responses here are honest. Honesty being telling what one thinks is the truth. Thinking something is the truth is not the same as it being true, but one can be honest and wrong. Or at least I hope so, or I am certainly dishonest.

I often admit that agnostic atheism is the most logical position. I don't know if a god is on the other end of a black hole, right? Could be. But if as a society don't you think it kind of strange that 80% believe in something without proof?

And I'm not set in my ways. I'm starting to think about karma vs. god. Why do I believe in karma? I know atheists who don't even believe in karma. I do believe you get what you give and what comes around goes around and all that. I totally do.

Oh, and I was listening to this christian last night and other than the god talk I liked everything she said. We can teach right and wrong without the imaginary character or fake stories.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

But you see, I don't think 80% believe in something without proof. I think it is 100%. We are all believers. The disputes are only about what we believe.

My take on karma is not about what goes around. I see it more as a balancing act. If you see life as a learning experience, a period of growth, then it is essential one experience all there is. How can you understand love if you have never experienced hate? How can you understand courage without fear, strength without weakness, power without helplessness? How do you understand violence unless you have been on both sides of it? For me, karma is not about getting back what you did in the past, but receiving what you need to move into the future.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

 

[PratchettFan]

I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer.


that's not the point, there being a God, it is the goal to have your Spirit set free to experience the Everlasting however long that might last as a self rewarding possibility granted to those who are living ... there was no Deity to greet you at birth but it was not your parents that gave you life or this planet, it was the Everlasting and logic alone concludes a directive whether one or many and matters only in survival and nothing else.

.

I think I see what you are saying, but let me boil it down and tell me if I'm right.

God is irrelevant.

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Anonymous

"If there is such a thing as a supreme being, then I have always felt it is the responsibility of each of us to be its moral superior." Terry Pratchett (and I may have screwed up the exact words, but you get the drift)

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

Would like an intelligent response please.. for those who support the Theory of Evolution..

Thank you.

Once more--

Could someone address this please?

 

[The Irish Ram]

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as their understanding evolves. Belief is observing science confirming God. I love that they are finding the dimensions God described to us long ago. Faith is knowing God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And that He knows the end from the beginning. And that His intelligence needs no future data. He got it right the first time.
Should we tell our esteemed that the dimensions they are discovering can be rolled up, or torn? Or should we just let them plod along......

I see you slipped right past Lady's truth about evolution. Since the monkey men don't really exist, they took a plaster cast of the skull of a monkey and the jaw of a human, the teeth of a pig, stuck it in our school books and told us to replace God with it.

If that chart was correct we would literally be walking on the bones of all of the millions of mutant monkeys it would take to end up with any one of them.

You can keep your anthropological art work. That is your proof.

Mine is the written eyewitness accounts of the Son of God returning to the same spot He was crucified at.

Since you can't rely on anthropology to tell you the truth, and without your monkey men, how did you get where you are today?
Chapter 5: Orangutans, Monkeys and Man

 

[Steven_R]

Would like an intelligent response please.. for those who support the Theory of Evolution..

Thank you.

Once more--

Could someone address this please?

Address what? The lack of millions of fossils in because fossils are very difficult to create. Just the right conditions have to exist at just the right time. But we have enough to follow the progression of our particular branch of the primate tree to go from proto-chimp to us. It's right there in any number of anthropology and biology texts.

 

[Steven_R]

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as they evolve.

Nope. I NEVER have to take what any scientific paper says because I can always go back and run the experiment myself. If I have a different outcome, someone has some explaining to do.

I trust the scientific process because I understand how it works and that it is a self-correcting machine, but I can always verify for myself. Trust, but verify.

 

[PratchettFan]

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as their understanding evolves. Belief is observing science confirming God. I love that they are finding the dimensions God described to us long ago. Faith is knowing God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And that He knows the end from the beginning. And that His intelligence needs no future data. He got it right the first time.
Should we tell our esteemed that the dimensions they are discovering can be rolled up, or torn? Or should we just let them plod along......

I see you slipped right past Lady's truth about evolution. Since the monkey men doesn't really exist, they took a plaster cast of the skull of a monkey and the jaw of a human, stuck it in our school books and told us to replace God with it.

If that chart was correct we would literally be walking on the bones of all of the millions of mutant monkeys it would take to end up with any one of them.

You can keep your anthropological art work. That is your proof.

Mine is the written eyewitness accounts of the Son of God returning to the same spot He was crucified at.

Since you can't rely on anthropology to tell you the truth, and without your monkey men, how did you get where you are today?
Chapter 5: Orangutans, Monkeys and Man

If someone tells me that I can't take something with a grain of salt, that is when I know I need a very large grain of salt.

 

[Tuatara]

I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?

I have no problem with people saying the believe in a god or anything else. I only have a problem when they state that their belief is the "truth". I'm not accusing you of doing this but I'm just clarifying my position.

Yeah, it's a power issue.

Sorry, the truth exists whether or not you believe it. And we are perfectly correct in saying that the truth is, God exists and will pass judgement on us all.

Then you need to provide evidence of this truth which no one in the history of mankind has. Until then shut up about it being the truth.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"

If you don't have that malignant tumor removed your going to die kind of threat..

Maybe if you really got to know some atheists personally you would realize we aren't bad people in fact you may look forward to hanging out with us again. Just like when I moved from Detroit to the burbs and all the white kids who had never met any blacks before were all prejudice and I who went to an all black school (3 whites) don't hate black people. Even though they picked on me, especially Roots Week where they showed it to us in class, I still didn't hate black people because I knew a lot of good black people.
Do I hate black society? Sure. Violence and not raising their kids I hate. Just like you may hate the atheist community because we are trying to kill your god but if you meet one of us you'll realize we are just as good as you. Better even because we aren't stupid. Probably better looking too and a much better personality.

Sealy, that makes me feel bad. If I gave you the impression that I dislike you, I'm sorry. That isn't the case. Liking someone is based on the fact that I consider them family, not on their belief system. If I disliked everyone who didn't share my thoughts, earth would be a lonely place. My kids are good Christian left wingers, because I taught them to think for themselves, not parrot my views, and I spent a lifetime trying to convince my best friend to accept Christ. He died right before Christmas. He knew he might not survive the surgery. He had time to commit before he went under the knife. Somehow I know he did just that. Pride was not so much of an issue on that day.
If I didn't want the very best for you, I wouldn't bother posting. Christ said the way to the Father is through Him. So, I have to tell you about Him. I want no vacant seats at our Father's table.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sorry, the truth exists whether or not you believe it. And we are perfectly correct in saying that the truth is, God exists and will pass judgement on us all.

Kosh, while technically, that is true, there are only 2 judgments that await mankind. The White Throne Judgement, where those who died hanging on to their sins, will present their case, and the Bema Judgement, where those whose sins Christ paid for, will have their deeds (not sins) judged to see what deeds were done for Christ's sake. Crowns are given out at that judgement. It is a Coronation, not a court house.

I know that a lot of Christians believe that their sins are going to be judged. Our sins already have been judged. Once and for all.
Our sins carry with them the sentence of death. If we still believe that we are going to be judged on our sins even though Christ already was, then we need to expect a Judge instead of a Father, and the exact sentence Christ received, which for us would be a second death. Because the punishment for sin is death, and we are totally incapable of removing the original sin, or the ones we've heaped on to it. If our sins were responsible for Christ's death sentence, then we should expect the same outcome if we are judged for them. Justice is just, if not replaced by mercy. What was Christ's passion for if not this statement from God. Why choose justice when we are offered this:

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” ... For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

^ That is our Father saying that. A Judge has no right to overlook our iniquities......
We all deserve to be in court at the White Throne Judgement. And yet not all of our names are on that docket. Some names are written in the book of life. And their names are written there when they accept Christ, not when they have finally stopped sinning, or at some future judgment. There has to be a reason for that. Christ accepted our sentence. And because of that, God, the Judge can legally dismiss our case, and put it behind Him. And continue the relationship of mercy and forgiveness, Father and child, that we started out with.

For that relationship look at the beginning of the exodus, where God, the Father, forgave His children while they were in the act of sinning. They went along sinning and He went along with them, forgiving, and providing. That is our Father. Look at the 2nd half of the exodus. That is God, the Judge. Note that not one sinner died on the Father's watch. They dropped like flies under the Judge.

God would not be 100% just or merciful if He judged 2 people for 1's crimes. The whole purpose of the cross was to rid us of our sin. It is not that 1/2 of an exchange took place. Both parts took place. To God, Christ looked like us on that cross, filthy. To God, we now look like Christ, clean. That was our gift. Christ exchanged places with us, and defeated Satan for us in the process. I may sin again, but I won't die for it. Through Christ, God can be my Father, not my Judge.

If Christ removed your sin so that you have no sin, what exactly do you think God, the Judge, is going to accuse you of when He sees you? If you are in Christ, your Father will welcome you home.

We are called to be doers of the word, not just hearers, and to turn away from sin, for Christ's sake, not ours. Not to try to overcome our sins with enough goodness so that God will give us a passing grade.

When we try to keep the laws, to obtain righteousness, it frustrates God. It is wanting Him to see Christ's work and our work. He only wants to see Christ in us. That way He KNOWS we are eternally secure.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

I have no problem with people saying the believe in a god or anything else. I only have a problem when they state that their belief is the "truth". I'm not accusing you of doing this but I'm just clarifying my position.

Yeah, it's a power issue.

Sorry, the truth exists whether or not you believe it. And we are perfectly correct in saying that the truth is, God exists and will pass judgement on us all.

Then you need to provide evidence of this truth which no one in the history of mankind has. Until then shut up about it being the truth.

I can say the same in regard to there being no God. You need to provide proof that God does not exist or otherwise shut up about your own conjecture being "truth." See how that works?

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

Would like an intelligent response please.. for those who support the Theory of Evolution..

Thank you.

Once more--

Could someone address this please?

Address what? The lack of millions of fossils in because fossils are very difficult to create. Just the right conditions have to exist at just the right time. But we have enough to follow the progression of our particular branch of the primate tree to go from proto-chimp to us. It's right there in any number of anthropology and biology texts.

LMAO In other words you have nothing as your so called proof as to why only the Chimp and man exist and no record of any fossil exists to prove otherwise. Thank you.

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't have that malignant tumor removed your going to die kind of threat..

Maybe if you really got to know some atheists personally you would realize we aren't bad people in fact you may look forward to hanging out with us again. Just like when I moved from Detroit to the burbs and all the white kids who had never met any blacks before were all prejudice and I who went to an all black school (3 whites) don't hate black people. Even though they picked on me, especially Roots Week where they showed it to us in class, I still didn't hate black people because I knew a lot of good black people.
Do I hate black society? Sure. Violence and not raising their kids I hate. Just like you may hate the atheist community because we are trying to kill your god but if you meet one of us you'll realize we are just as good as you. Better even because we aren't stupid. Probably better looking too and a much better personality.

Sealy, that makes me feel bad. If I gave you the impression that I dislike you, I'm sorry. That isn't the case. Liking someone is based on the fact that I consider them family, not on their belief system. If I disliked everyone who didn't share my thoughts, earth would be a lonely place. My kids are good Christian left wingers, because I taught them to think for themselves, not parrot my views, and I spent a lifetime trying to convince my best friend to accept Christ. He died right before Christmas. He knew he might not survive the surgery. He had time to commit before he went under the knife. Somehow I know he did just that. Pride was not so much of an issue on that day.
If I didn't want the very best for you, I wouldn't bother posting. Christ said the way to the Father is through Him. So, I have to tell you about Him. I want no vacant seats at our Father's table.

That's nice and sweet and kind of you however I don't believe in the christ story. It was made up to teach human's morality. Even the religious people on here yesterday admitted that adam and eve, mosus and noah are just stories to teach people how to be good. So if those are just made up stories, I'm sure so is the jesus story unless you are going to convince me the guy was born from a virgin, performed miracles and rose from the dead?

If you believe that then you probably believe a talking snake talked to Adam.

So which is it? Are you one of those people who take the bible stories literally or not? Before we go any further I need to know.

 

[sealybobo]

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as their understanding evolves. Belief is observing science confirming God. I love that they are finding the dimensions God described to us long ago. Faith is knowing God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And that He knows the end from the beginning. And that His intelligence needs no future data. He got it right the first time.
Should we tell our esteemed that the dimensions they are discovering can be rolled up, or torn? Or should we just let them plod along......

I see you slipped right past Lady's truth about evolution. Since the monkey men don't really exist, they took a plaster cast of the skull of a monkey and the jaw of a human, the teeth of a pig, stuck it in our school books and told us to replace God with it.

If that chart was correct we would literally be walking on the bones of all of the millions of mutant monkeys it would take to end up with any one of them.

You can keep your anthropological art work. That is your proof.

Mine is the written eyewitness accounts of the Son of God returning to the same spot He was crucified at.

Since you can't rely on anthropology to tell you the truth, and without your monkey men, how did you get where you are today?
Chapter 5: Orangutans, Monkeys and Man

So you really believe Jesus was born from a virgin and performed miracles and rose from the dead? That's a riot because everyone yesterday seemed to agree/admit that all the adam and eve, moses and noah stories are all allegories.

So what stories in the old and new testaments are real and which are just stories designed to make people be good? Or do you think all the stories are real? People could live to 800 years old? Talking snakes?

And you think I'm going to have a serious conversation with you? Thanks for the laughs honey.

 

[sealybobo]

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as their understanding evolves. Belief is observing science confirming God. I love that they are finding the dimensions God described to us long ago. Faith is knowing God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And that He knows the end from the beginning. And that His intelligence needs no future data. He got it right the first time.
Should we tell our esteemed that the dimensions they are discovering can be rolled up, or torn? Or should we just let them plod along......

I see you slipped right past Lady's truth about evolution. Since the monkey men doesn't really exist, they took a plaster cast of the skull of a monkey and the jaw of a human, stuck it in our school books and told us to replace God with it.

If that chart was correct we would literally be walking on the bones of all of the millions of mutant monkeys it would take to end up with any one of them.

You can keep your anthropological art work. That is your proof.

Mine is the written eyewitness accounts of the Son of God returning to the same spot He was crucified at.

Since you can't rely on anthropology to tell you the truth, and without your monkey men, how did you get where you are today?
Chapter 5: Orangutans, Monkeys and Man

If someone tells me that I can't take something with a grain of salt, that is when I know I need a very large grain of salt.

No shit. And she said one minute science tells you one thing then the next it changes. Yea, based on evidence! Anyways, I wanted to point out to her that religion does that too. For years they told me/us Adam and Eve were real people and Mosus was real and Noah and the Arc really happened and now they're telling me those are all allegories. Well if they are allegories, so is the jesus story. A fucking lie is what I call it. Allegory, story, fable, lie. What's the diff?

 

[The Irish Ram]

No snake talked to Adam. You keep saying that...
And if the religious people here believe that nothing is true in the Bible, or that some things are and some aren't, then I want them to explain how they know which are and which aren't. Since God's ways are not our ways, do we only accept the things we can wrap our little human brain around?

Disregard the people, not the Book. If they believe the NT, and not the OT, then they also don't believe Christ.
Christ said every word of the OT was from God. If Adam and Eve didn't exist, then the God of the people that were here yesterday is a liar and they don't need to believe they need Christ to remove the original sin either. Without Adam there is no original sin. They have developed their own version of God. They have taken away from and added to, to make their God more plausible.
So where are you at Sealy? Christ existed but had nothing to do with being the Son of God? He never existed? Existed but couldn't work miracles?
And are you willing to accept eyewitness accounts of the whole event, written in Hebrew by participants in the events that transpired?

And to those Christians who don't believe there was an Adam and Eve, a Moses, a Noah, what else did God lie to us about?

 

[The Irish Ram]

So you have to take science with a grain of salt because next week they'll tell you something different as their understanding evolves. Belief is observing science confirming God. I love that they are finding the dimensions God described to us long ago. Faith is knowing God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And that He knows the end from the beginning. And that His intelligence needs no future data. He got it right the first time.
Should we tell our esteemed that the dimensions they are discovering can be rolled up, or torn? Or should we just let them plod along......

I see you slipped right past Lady's truth about evolution. Since the monkey men doesn't really exist, they took a plaster cast of the skull of a monkey and the jaw of a human, stuck it in our school books and told us to replace God with it.

If that chart was correct we would literally be walking on the bones of all of the millions of mutant monkeys it would take to end up with any one of them.

You can keep your anthropological art work. That is your proof.

Mine is the written eyewitness accounts of the Son of God returning to the same spot He was crucified at.

Since you can't rely on anthropology to tell you the truth, and without your monkey men, how did you get where you are today?
Chapter 5: Orangutans, Monkeys and Man

If someone tells me that I can't take something with a grain of salt, that is when I know I need a very large grain of salt.

No shit. And she said one minute science tells you one thing then the next it changes. Yea, based on evidence! Anyways, I wanted to point out to her that religion does that too. For years they told me/us Adam and Eve were real people and Mosus was real and Noah and the Arc really happened and now they're telling me those are all allegories. Well if they are allegories, so is the jesus story. A fucking lie is what I call it. Allegory, story, fable, lie. What's the diff?

Exactly, Science is only as good as our next discovery. Tomorrow they'll find something else and change their minds. How much stake did you put into your Neanderthal grandparents? You should have taken that proof with a great big grain of salt, since they know now that it's not true. Unless you still believe that Neanderthal turned into modern man. He was all the rage when I was in school. Now not so much.
When man said there were 3 dimensions, God showed us Christ in the sixth when He would appear and disappear without the benefit of a door. 3 dimensions were all the rage until Einstein. Now not so much.
The God of Abraham does not 'do that too'. He didn't tell us that there were 3 dimensions and then change up his story when we found a 4th.

So, what do you require to believe that Christ lived, died and lived again? Are you willing to believe the people that were there?