If you don't believe in God...

[PratchettFan]

You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.

No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - Carl Sagan

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Everything you just wrote is unsupported opinion. It means nothing and carries no weight. It is nothing more than belief with a different colored wrapper. I am especially unimpressed with Sagan's quote. What does "extraordinary" mean? Who gets to decide where the line is on that? It is merely a justification for belief, not the foundation of a rational conclusion. There are only claims and evidence. Extraneous adjectives are flowery but pointless.

Provide me with a definition of god supported by factual evidence, then we can begin. Until then, any opinion has no greater worth than any other. Saying your opinion is superior is pretty much what all religions do. But sans evidence, it is just one more expression of faith.

Pretend you walk up to me on the street and you are going to tell me about god. What would you say? Would you ask me if I know about god? Lets say I say no. What is god? Lets start there and lets see if you can logically or rationally or intelligently explain it to me.

I would not do this. So let me say that I cannot logically, rationally or intelligently explain it to you. I feel there is a purpose to existence. That is as far as I can take it. Beyond that, I just have no clue. All I have is a feeling. To me purpose suggests intent, which means consciousness. Again, no rational reason for that. Just a feeling.

For me to tell you that X is the nature of God would be an act of pure arrogance on my part. I am certain of only two things: I know nothing about the nature of God and no one else knows any more than I do.

This is why I seldom debate the nature of God with theists. I will express my own beliefs, but not much beyond that. But an atheist is making a far greater claim of knowledge than any theist. A theist is only claiming the nature of God is X. An atheist is claiming they understand the entire nature of existence, including all potential natures of God. A theist's claim is finite, an atheist's claim is infinite. And then to offer they are being rational? I think not.

As I said elsewhere, I have no problem with belief. But at least one should admit that it is belief.

 

[hobelim]

Ok. Let's take them in turn....

Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.

Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?

Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?

I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.

These are excuses, there are numerous ways to get help besides stealing...

Ignore the other driver, best choice, anything else is wrong...

The bombardier is the tough one I will agree, but they had a choice somewhere...

The use of absolute is for conjecture only, people are inherently born with this knowledge of right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

No. People are not born with this inherent knowledge. If that were the case, we would not need to teach children to share. We are taught this.

Everything is a choice. There are always options no matter what the situation. The question is which choice to make. Mostly that is mundane, but if good and evil were absolutes, then there would be no choice. It would be obvious for everyone. It is not because there are no absolutes. All choices involve the weighing of consequences and is never clean. If you find all such choices to be clear, then you have lived a very lucky life indeed.

I don't know if lucky is the right word. Some people find clarity by avoiding thinking about right and wrong and good and evil and weighing the consequences for any given choice entirely by saying 'I'm just doing my job" or I'm just following orders." as if that absolves them for the consequences of their actions.

Exchanging ones birthright as a sentient being for the false security of being told what to do for a paycheck doesn't seem very lucky to me....

 

[PratchettFan]

You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.

No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - Carl Sagan

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

BTW, you asked me the question so I should give you an answer. Why do I believe in God? I think it likely that I don't, at least your idea of God that I glean from your posts. You seem to be very Christian centered and I am not a Christian.

I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?

Finally some honesty.

You also believe because you've been told this story from when you were a baby.

And hey, as long as you aren't saying I'll go to hell if I don't believe and that you want this god story told in school, I don't care as much. I do care though because they use religion to divide the middle class/poor but I don't care as much when it's a person who admits they just want to believe instead of claiming their book is real and if I don't believe I'll burn in hell. I don't think society is better off if everyone believes this lie.

We also know where your belief comes from. The most primitive part of the brain. They think monkey's are spiritual too. Dogs and cats too. Do they believe in god(s)? We don't know. But all animals have a healthy fear of the unknown.

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

Would like an intelligent response please.. for those who support the Theory of Evolution..

Thank you.

 

[PratchettFan]

One cannot not believe in something that doesn't exist to begin with.

????

[MENTION=29614]C_Clayton_Jones[/MENTION]

Do you mean exist in your mind?

If someone believes the "sun revolves around the earth,"
or the "earth is flat," you mean the earth has to exist to have beliefs about it?

I actually agree, in a way, the issue is not whether people believe in Jesus or God,
but WHAT we believe about their "meanings" that determines true or false, right or wrong.

If people believe in a VENGEFUL God/Jesus the problem is believing in retribution as something we can decide as judge/jury/executioner.

Is this what you mean? You can't have a belief ABOUT something if it doesn't represent a CONCEPT in your mind? I believe Jesus represents Justice, so this could explain that. Thanks CCJ!

Theism is the aberration, for the great majority of human existence man enjoyed freedom from the curse of religion and 'god.'

And prior to the advent of civilization religion was pantheistic, free of doctrine, dogma, and deities.

Consequently, religion is the creation of man, where 'god' is a human contrivance, and 'god' never existed as perceived by theists; since 'god' as a omnipotent deity has never existed, and obviously doesn't exist now, there isn't anything not to believe in.

The mistake theists make is to perceive 'god' as 'fact,' and those free from faith 'denying' that 'fact,' when in reality nothing could be further from the truth – as the error exists solely with theists.

Lot's of claims without a shred of evidence to support it. Theism exists in every human society, but it is an aberration? Apparently we use a different dictionary.

 

[PratchettFan]

These are excuses, there are numerous ways to get help besides stealing...

Ignore the other driver, best choice, anything else is wrong...

The bombardier is the tough one I will agree, but they had a choice somewhere...

The use of absolute is for conjecture only, people are inherently born with this knowledge of right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

No. People are not born with this inherent knowledge. If that were the case, we would not need to teach children to share. We are taught this.

Everything is a choice. There are always options no matter what the situation. The question is which choice to make. Mostly that is mundane, but if good and evil were absolutes, then there would be no choice. It would be obvious for everyone. It is not because there are no absolutes. All choices involve the weighing of consequences and is never clean. If you find all such choices to be clear, then you have lived a very lucky life indeed.

I don't know if lucky is the right word. Some people find clarity by avoiding thinking about right and wrong and good and evil and weighing the consequences for any given choice entirely by saying 'I'm just doing my job" or I'm just following orders." as if that absolves them for the consequences of their actions.

Exchanging ones birthright as a sentient being for the false security of being told what to do for a paycheck doesn't seem very lucky to me....

I see your point. However, based upon the GWV's responses I do not think that is the case here.

 

[Missourian]

It's ok if we disagree. However, I'm not sure we do.

You say that everyone makes decisions based upon what they see as right vs wrong. But that is all about perspective. You and I might well see the exact same situation, from our own perspective, with me seeing option A as right and you seeing it as wrong. When I say there is no right vs wrong, I am talking about the concept of an absolute.

Is it wrong to intentionally kill a child? Most would say yes, but what if you are a bombardier flying over a city in a war. You are most certainly about to kill any number of children. Is it still wrong? From the perspective of the parent holding one of those children below, is it right?

Most decisions in life are mundane. They aren't about Right vs Wrong, they are about convenience vs inconvenience. When we are faced with true moral decisions, it is never about absolutes.

Okay...

You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...

So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?

If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?

I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...

Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...

Ok. Let's take them in turn....

Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.

Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?

Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?

I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.

Matthew, chapter 12.

 

[PratchettFan]

Okay...

You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...

So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?

If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?

I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...

Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...

Ok. Let's take them in turn....

Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.

Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?

Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?

I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.

Matthew, chapter 12.

Kalama Sutta

 

[sealybobo]

BTW, you asked me the question so I should give you an answer. Why do I believe in God? I think it likely that I don't, at least your idea of God that I glean from your posts. You seem to be very Christian centered and I am not a Christian.

I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?

Finally some honesty.

You also believe because you've been told this story from when you were a baby.

And hey, as long as you aren't saying I'll go to hell if I don't believe and that you want this god story told in school, I don't care as much. I do care though because they use religion to divide the middle class/poor but I don't care as much when it's a person who admits they just want to believe instead of claiming their book is real and if I don't believe I'll burn in hell. I don't think society is better off if everyone believes this lie.

We also know where your belief comes from. The most primitive part of the brain. They think monkey's are spiritual too. Dogs and cats too. Do they believe in god(s)? We don't know. But all animals have a healthy fear of the unknown.

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

No I meant after all the stupid posts from other people, finally someone who I agreed with and someone who made sense. I agreed with you! I liked your post!

 

[sealybobo]

BTW, you asked me the question so I should give you an answer. Why do I believe in God? I think it likely that I don't, at least your idea of God that I glean from your posts. You seem to be very Christian centered and I am not a Christian.

I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?

Finally some honesty.

You also believe because you've been told this story from when you were a baby.

And hey, as long as you aren't saying I'll go to hell if I don't believe and that you want this god story told in school, I don't care as much. I do care though because they use religion to divide the middle class/poor but I don't care as much when it's a person who admits they just want to believe instead of claiming their book is real and if I don't believe I'll burn in hell. I don't think society is better off if everyone believes this lie.

We also know where your belief comes from. The most primitive part of the brain. They think monkey's are spiritual too. Dogs and cats too. Do they believe in god(s)? We don't know. But all animals have a healthy fear of the unknown.

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

As an atheist, I like everything this woman says except for when she talks about god.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

 

[PratchettFan]

Finally some honesty.

You also believe because you've been told this story from when you were a baby.

And hey, as long as you aren't saying I'll go to hell if I don't believe and that you want this god story told in school, I don't care as much. I do care though because they use religion to divide the middle class/poor but I don't care as much when it's a person who admits they just want to believe instead of claiming their book is real and if I don't believe I'll burn in hell. I don't think society is better off if everyone believes this lie.

We also know where your belief comes from. The most primitive part of the brain. They think monkey's are spiritual too. Dogs and cats too. Do they believe in god(s)? We don't know. But all animals have a healthy fear of the unknown.

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

No I meant after all the stupid posts from other people, finally someone who I agreed with and someone who made sense. I agreed with you! I liked your post!

Then I apologize for questioning your response. But I will also add that most of the responses here are honest. Honesty being telling what one thinks is the truth. Thinking something is the truth is not the same as it being true, but one can be honest and wrong. Or at least I hope so, or I am certainly dishonest.

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Have you been reading the responses? I am so proud to see people with common sense responding to you rather than Boss or gismys. It is time we as a people take a huge fucking leap forward in the evolutionary/intelligence department and that means shedding ourselves of all the made up bullshit religions. Utterly insane. Maybe an atheist/intelligent society will do better? At least it will be one less wedge issue for the rich to divide us with. No more worrying about gays, denying global warming, fighting wars, fighting stem cell or worrying if someone terminates a seed in their womb. A scientists/atheist doesn't give a shit if you butt fuck guys or abort your babies. We will raise our children to be successful and kind and omg when I think about all the little christian fucking bullies on all the playgrounds in America.

I believe that religion is holding us back. I would say people are stupid but as scientists we understand why people believe. It comes from the most primitive part of the brain. It was good for early man to have a healthy fear of the unknown. We know this now. And now we even know the Adam and Eve stories aren't real. What more do you need to know? I believe you are seeking the truth and now have found it. And we aren't calling you dumb.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

Truth

I was listening to this woman last night and I loved everything she said except for when she talked about god. She could have took the god out of it and instead of being a religious person talking about god she could be a motivational speaker talking about karma and how to be a better person . I would have agreed 100% with everything she said if she didn't say god wants or god says. Why add the fairy tale lie to the message? She said be nice to people, tip more, be nicer to your spouse, etc. and you will be rewarded. But don't tell me if I do these things a god is going to reward me and not expect skepticism. You can actually prove to me karma. Maybe not definitively but I think we all know what comes around goes around and good juju and bad juju and you are the sum of the 5 people you hang around the most, blabla. Even if karma is bullshit, at least I can sort of buy into the concept. I get it that if you are a bad person bad karma follows you. For example, that Clipper owner has always been a dick and he finally got his. And if he's dick maybe his kids don't call often. His wife clearly can't stand him. He's in hell now. But the sad thing is, Hitler for example, he is probably not burning in hell. I wish he were, but that's probably not reality.

Anyways, other than the god talk I like this broad. https://www.joycemeyer.org/

 

[PratchettFan]

Finally some honesty.

You also believe because you've been told this story from when you were a baby.

And hey, as long as you aren't saying I'll go to hell if I don't believe and that you want this god story told in school, I don't care as much. I do care though because they use religion to divide the middle class/poor but I don't care as much when it's a person who admits they just want to believe instead of claiming their book is real and if I don't believe I'll burn in hell. I don't think society is better off if everyone believes this lie.

We also know where your belief comes from. The most primitive part of the brain. They think monkey's are spiritual too. Dogs and cats too. Do they believe in god(s)? We don't know. But all animals have a healthy fear of the unknown.

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

As an atheist, I like everything this woman says except for when she talks about god.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

My wife loves her.

 

[sealybobo]

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

No I meant after all the stupid posts from other people, finally someone who I agreed with and someone who made sense. I agreed with you! I liked your post!

Then I apologize for questioning your response. But I will also add that most of the responses here are honest. Honesty being telling what one thinks is the truth. Thinking something is the truth is not the same as it being true, but one can be honest and wrong. Or at least I hope so, or I am certainly dishonest.

I often admit that agnostic atheism is the most logical position. I don't know if a god is on the other end of a black hole, right? Could be. But if as a society don't you think it kind of strange that 80% believe in something without proof?

And I'm not set in my ways. I'm starting to think about karma vs. god. Why do I believe in karma? I know atheists who don't even believe in karma. I do believe you get what you give and what comes around goes around and all that. I totally do.

Oh, and I was listening to this christian last night and other than the god talk I liked everything she said. We can teach right and wrong without the imaginary character or fake stories.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

 

[sealybobo]

Finally some honesty? Are you suggesting I have not been honest to this point?

You are making a lot of assumptions here without even attempting to obtain any data to establish them. That is not how rational thinking works.

Both of my parents were Christians. They sent me to sunday school as a child and I learned all about how Jesus loves me. And when I was old enough to understand what they were talking about I was frankly appalled. I could not then and cannot to this day understand why they or anyone could believe such a thing. As a teenager I read my first book on Buddhism and knew at that time that I was a Buddhist. Not became one, simply finally had a name to attach to what I was. No one taught me what I believe.

You do not know where belief comes from. Oh, there are theories which are being tested, but to suggest we have reached the point of knowledge on this is worrying at best. Science is a process we use to investigate our environment. It is a tool. It makes a lousy religion.

As an atheist, I like everything this woman says except for when she talks about god.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

My wife loves her.

Who's that bald guy who sounds a lot like her? I don't know if he talks about god. Maybe he is the secular version of her. Dr. Wayne Dyer. He's good too. All I had to do was google bald motivational speaker and he popped up.

 

[sealybobo]

Oh, and yes that is a threat. To tell someone, "ok buddy, it's your soul, one day you'll meet this imaginary man and you'll see"

If you don't have that malignant tumor removed your going to die kind of threat..

Maybe if you really got to know some atheists personally you would realize we aren't bad people in fact you may look forward to hanging out with us again. Just like when I moved from Detroit to the burbs and all the white kids who had never met any blacks before were all prejudice and I who went to an all black school (3 whites) don't hate black people. Even though they picked on me, especially Roots Week where they showed it to us in class, I still didn't hate black people because I knew a lot of good black people.

Do I hate black society? Sure. Violence and not raising their kids I hate. Just like you may hate the atheist community because we are trying to kill your god but if you meet one of us you'll realize we are just as good as you. Better even because we aren't stupid. Probably better looking too and a much better personality.

 

[PratchettFan]

No I meant after all the stupid posts from other people, finally someone who I agreed with and someone who made sense. I agreed with you! I liked your post!

Then I apologize for questioning your response. But I will also add that most of the responses here are honest. Honesty being telling what one thinks is the truth. Thinking something is the truth is not the same as it being true, but one can be honest and wrong. Or at least I hope so, or I am certainly dishonest.

I often admit that agnostic atheism is the most logical position. I don't know if a god is on the other end of a black hole, right? Could be. But if as a society don't you think it kind of strange that 80% believe in something without proof?

And I'm not set in my ways. I'm starting to think about karma vs. god. Why do I believe in karma? I know atheists who don't even believe in karma. I do believe you get what you give and what comes around goes around and all that. I totally do.

Oh, and I was listening to this christian last night and other than the god talk I liked everything she said. We can teach right and wrong without the imaginary character or fake stories.

https://www.joycemeyer.org/

But you see, I don't think 80% believe in something without proof. I think it is 100%. We are all believers. The disputes are only about what we believe.

My take on karma is not about what goes around. I see it more as a balancing act. If you see life as a learning experience, a period of growth, then it is essential one experience all there is. How can you understand love if you have never experienced hate? How can you understand courage without fear, strength without weakness, power without helplessness? How do you understand violence unless you have been on both sides of it? For me, karma is not about getting back what you did in the past, but receiving what you need to move into the future.

 

[BreezeWood]

admission to the Everlasting before a persons physiology expires is a worthy goal, finding an Almighty on the other side would not be a surprise.

.

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer.


that's not the point, there being a God, it is the goal to have your Spirit set free to experience the Everlasting however long that might last as a self rewarding possibility granted to those who are living ... there was no Deity to greet you at birth but it was not your parents that gave you life or this planet, it was the Everlasting and logic alone concludes a directive whether one or many and matters only in survival and nothing else.

.

 

[PratchettFan]

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer.


that's not the point, there being a God, it is the goal to have your Spirit set free to experience the Everlasting however long that might last as a self rewarding possibility granted to those who are living ... there was no Deity to greet you at birth but it was not your parents that gave you life or this planet, it was the Everlasting and logic alone concludes a directive whether one or many and matters only in survival and nothing else.

.

I think I see what you are saying, but let me boil it down and tell me if I'm right.

God is irrelevant.

 

[sealybobo]

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer.


that's not the point, there being a God, it is the goal to have your Spirit set free to experience the Everlasting however long that might last as a self rewarding possibility granted to those who are living ... there was no Deity to greet you at birth but it was not your parents that gave you life or this planet, it was the Everlasting and logic alone concludes a directive whether one or many and matters only in survival and nothing else.

.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain