If you don't believe in God...

[GWV5903]

No, I do not believe in good vs evil. This is always a matter of perspective - unless we are dealing with a sociopath. There are very few sociopaths.

If you pay taxes, you are supporting any number of activities. Now let us say we are engaged in a military action to which you are vehemently opposed. You consider it an immoral action. On the other hand, your taxes also go to food for starving children. If you refuse to pay taxes, you are only adding to that starvation. If you do pay them, you are supporting the war. So no matter what action you take, you are doing something you consider to be wrong.

To my point on good vs evil. Are you aware the term "terrorism" actually comes from WWII from Gen Curtis Lemay to describe our bombing policy in Europe? We intentionally bombed civilian populations in order to terrorize them into submission. We did this knowing those populations were primarily the very young and the very old. Would you call that good? Was the alternative good?

We will not agree on this, I think you're avoiding the obvious when it comes to good vs. evil, maybe someday you will figure this out...

Paying taxes has nothing to do with the decision a bureaucrat makes in DC in regards to me. That decision is theirs and no one else, I voted for who I believe should make it and that is as far as it goes...

With your analogy if I paid for groceries and the sacker stole from the store it's my fault, does that make sense to you? Everyone makes decision's based on what they see as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

The sociopath is not the only person who lies and steals, or is antisocial. Is the husband who cheats lacking morals? Yes, but that doesn't make him a sociopath...

I use to struggle with tithing, I couldn't justify it because of the car they drove or the home they lived in. Finally I realized it wasn't about them, it was about me giving, I didn't have to answer for their decisions, only mine...

The truth is clear, you just have to want to find it...

It's ok if we disagree. However, I'm not sure we do.

You say that everyone makes decisions based upon what they see as right vs wrong. But that is all about perspective. You and I might well see the exact same situation, from our own perspective, with me seeing option A as right and you seeing it as wrong. When I say there is no right vs wrong, I am talking about the concept of an absolute.

Is it wrong to intentionally kill a child? Most would say yes, but what if you are a bombardier flying over a city in a war. You are most certainly about to kill any number of children. Is it still wrong? From the perspective of the parent holding one of those children below, is it right?

Most decisions in life are mundane. They aren't about Right vs Wrong, they are about convenience vs inconvenience. When we are faced with true moral decisions, it is never about absolutes.

Okay...

You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...

So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?

If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?

I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...

Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...

 

[PratchettFan]

We will not agree on this, I think you're avoiding the obvious when it comes to good vs. evil, maybe someday you will figure this out...

Paying taxes has nothing to do with the decision a bureaucrat makes in DC in regards to me. That decision is theirs and no one else, I voted for who I believe should make it and that is as far as it goes...

With your analogy if I paid for groceries and the sacker stole from the store it's my fault, does that make sense to you? Everyone makes decision's based on what they see as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

The sociopath is not the only person who lies and steals, or is antisocial. Is the husband who cheats lacking morals? Yes, but that doesn't make him a sociopath...

I use to struggle with tithing, I couldn't justify it because of the car they drove or the home they lived in. Finally I realized it wasn't about them, it was about me giving, I didn't have to answer for their decisions, only mine...

The truth is clear, you just have to want to find it...

It's ok if we disagree. However, I'm not sure we do.

You say that everyone makes decisions based upon what they see as right vs wrong. But that is all about perspective. You and I might well see the exact same situation, from our own perspective, with me seeing option A as right and you seeing it as wrong. When I say there is no right vs wrong, I am talking about the concept of an absolute.

Is it wrong to intentionally kill a child? Most would say yes, but what if you are a bombardier flying over a city in a war. You are most certainly about to kill any number of children. Is it still wrong? From the perspective of the parent holding one of those children below, is it right?

Most decisions in life are mundane. They aren't about Right vs Wrong, they are about convenience vs inconvenience. When we are faced with true moral decisions, it is never about absolutes.

Okay...

You can dilute it down to numerous levels, but choosing the donut to eat is not what I am referring to...

So if you decide to steal from your employer that is a conscience decision of right vs. wrong, wouldn't you agree that is a pretty clear absolute?

If you choose to flip off the car that just cut you off, isn't that a choice? Are you telling me in a civil society that this is the proper response?

I think the point you miss in this is what is right for me can be wrong for someone else, but it is still the right decision for me...

Sorry the bombardier has a choice long before he sits in the cock pit and releases the bomb...

Ok. Let's take them in turn....

Stealing from your employer. Someone is holding your family hostage at home and you either steal from your employer or they kill them. Your child is sick and if you don't buy some medicine she will die, you have no money and your only choice is steal or watch her die. You discover your employer is secretly polluting the town's water supply and the only way to bring this to light is to steal confidential files.

Flipping off a car. I'm not sure how this fits the discussion, but I do it because it makes me feel empowered. Is it better to just internalize the anger?

Yes, the bombardier made a choice. Defend his country or not. Do you drop the bombs to kill thousands in order to shorten the war and save millions? Which is right and which is wrong?

I get that what is right for you is right for you, even if not for me. That is my point as well. Just because something is right for me does not make it RIGHT. It just makes it right for me. And it only makes it right under specific circumstances. There are no absolutes.

 

[sealybobo]

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

 

[sealybobo]

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

As a rational, reasoned and logical person, I know the bible is a lie. In fact 7 out of 10 christians admit they don't take the bible literally. So if the adam and eve STORIES are just stories, what else is? Is Jesus just a story too? I think it is. Unless you can prove to me miracles happen. You can't scientifically. First hand accounts are not reliable either by the way. Ever see a magic trick and not know how they did it?

So IF there was a god, do you think he would reward ignorance? That's what you are if you swallow the jesus, mohammad or jewish stories. Or do you think this vein jealous mean god really NEEDS us to believe in him?

I was watching a jesus show last night and they kept saying that god wants us to believe even without proof. Of course he does. That's exactly what I would say if I started a cult. The god can't come out to play guys, sorry. He said talk to him through me, your Messiah.

And believe or burn in hell??? Really?

Sorry I can't prove your god isn't real but for an extraordinary claim such as god don't you think it is you who has to prove such an outrageous claim? Do I have to prove an invisible mermaid isn't blowing you right now too? Unfalseafiable.

P.S. If there is a god, he made us atheists smart to stop this religion nonsense.

Oh, and why is it that you poor theists don't have to use logic and reason? Forget about our speculation. Don't you agree you too are speculating? No. You guys believe Jesus was a god. Stupid shits. Wake the fuck up please. You are holding us back. You guys are worrying about gay butt sex meanwhile the ocean is filling up with plastic.

 

[PratchettFan]

More truth

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

Yes, that is the belief I have heard so many times. One might even call it dogma. I think I will instead go with an unsupported belief system is an unsupported belief system. If it makes you feel better to say your unsupported belief system is somehow less unsupported because you insist it is not a religion, who am I to take that away from you.

 

[PratchettFan]

More truth

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

As a rational, reasoned and logical person, I know the bible is a lie. In fact 7 out of 10 christians admit they don't take the bible literally. So if the adam and eve STORIES are just stories, what else is? Is Jesus just a story too? I think it is. Unless you can prove to me miracles happen. You can't scientifically. First hand accounts are not reliable either by the way. Ever see a magic trick and not know how they did it?

So IF there was a god, do you think he would reward ignorance? That's what you are if you swallow the jesus, mohammad or jewish stories. Or do you think this vein jealous mean god really NEEDS us to believe in him?

I was watching a jesus show last night and they kept saying that god wants us to believe even without proof. Of course he does. That's exactly what I would say if I started a cult. The god can't come out to play guys, sorry. He said talk to him through me, your Messiah.

And believe or burn in hell??? Really?

Sorry I can't prove your god isn't real but for an extraordinary claim such as god don't you think it is you who has to prove such an outrageous claim? Do I have to prove an invisible mermaid isn't blowing you right now too? Unfalseafiable.

P.S. If there is a god, he made us atheists smart to stop this religion nonsense.

Oh, and why is it that you poor theists don't have to use logic and reason? Forget about our speculation. Don't you agree you too are speculating? No. You guys believe Jesus was a god. Stupid shits. Wake the fuck up please. You are holding us back. You guys are worrying about gay butt sex meanwhile the ocean is filling up with plastic.

I am not a Christian. Not even a little bit. But I will certainly own up to my belief system to be entirely speculative. I have not the slightest clue what the TRUTH might be. I just make the guess that makes me the happiest and go with that.

As to what you "know", I saw not one iota of evidence to support that claim. Let me know when you have some.

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Have you been reading the responses? I am so proud to see people with common sense responding to you rather than Boss or gismys. It is time we as a people take a huge fucking leap forward in the evolutionary/intelligence department and that means shedding ourselves of all the made up bullshit religions. Utterly insane. Maybe an atheist/intelligent society will do better? At least it will be one less wedge issue for the rich to divide us with. No more worrying about gays, denying global warming, fighting wars, fighting stem cell or worrying if someone terminates a seed in their womb. A scientists/atheist doesn't give a shit if you butt fuck guys or abort your babies. We will raise our children to be successful and kind and omg when I think about all the little christian fucking bullies on all the playgrounds in America.

I believe that religion is holding us back. I would say people are stupid but as scientists we understand why people believe. It comes from the most primitive part of the brain. It was good for early man to have a healthy fear of the unknown. We know this now. And now we even know the Adam and Eve stories aren't real. What more do you need to know? I believe you are seeking the truth and now have found it. And we aren't calling you dumb.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

That is all very nice, but it is no less an irrational belief than thinking sky fairies hold up the wings of airplanes so they won't fall. I keep hearing "Oh.... if only..." but do you have any evidence to support this? Any indication at all that human nature would suddenly change and we would come together in brotherly love if only we stopped believing in X? Because if you don't, then what you are doing is compartmentalizing world-views and models from one another in order to maintain a state of ignorant bliss and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. What you are not doing is deciding based upon evidence and reason.

In Yugoslavia the ethnic clensing that happened happened because 5 different religions clashed. Who riled them up? The politicians. Just like they do here in the US. Remember Reagan won over the Moral Majority? This is how the powerful use religion to control the masses. Bush used religion to lie us into war with Iraq. Americans wanted to go kill those muslims.

Notice we never invade any christian nations?

So MAYBE if religion were gone these things wouldn't have happened. At least religion would be one less thing the powerful would have to use to control/manipulate us.

And what I do know is that any christian who points to stalin or mao as an example of how atheists would do only needs to look back at how their forefathers came to America and nearly wiped out the entire indian population to steal their land.

Don't forget the Spanish Enquisition.

And fuck Mao and Stalin. Those were ruthless evil dictators. Fact is if you survey'ed their citizens I would be willing to bet the masses believed in god. This is how Mao & Stalin were able to manipulate those stupid/simple sheeple who believe in invisible fairys.

If I can't prove we'd do better I can at least show you've done a horrible job.

 

[sealybobo]

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

As a rational, reasoned and logical person, I know the bible is a lie. In fact 7 out of 10 christians admit they don't take the bible literally. So if the adam and eve STORIES are just stories, what else is? Is Jesus just a story too? I think it is. Unless you can prove to me miracles happen. You can't scientifically. First hand accounts are not reliable either by the way. Ever see a magic trick and not know how they did it?

So IF there was a god, do you think he would reward ignorance? That's what you are if you swallow the jesus, mohammad or jewish stories. Or do you think this vein jealous mean god really NEEDS us to believe in him?

I was watching a jesus show last night and they kept saying that god wants us to believe even without proof. Of course he does. That's exactly what I would say if I started a cult. The god can't come out to play guys, sorry. He said talk to him through me, your Messiah.

And believe or burn in hell??? Really?

Sorry I can't prove your god isn't real but for an extraordinary claim such as god don't you think it is you who has to prove such an outrageous claim? Do I have to prove an invisible mermaid isn't blowing you right now too? Unfalseafiable.

P.S. If there is a god, he made us atheists smart to stop this religion nonsense.

Oh, and why is it that you poor theists don't have to use logic and reason? Forget about our speculation. Don't you agree you too are speculating? No. You guys believe Jesus was a god. Stupid shits. Wake the fuck up please. You are holding us back. You guys are worrying about gay butt sex meanwhile the ocean is filling up with plastic.

I am not a Christian. Not even a little bit. But I will certainly own up to my belief system to be entirely speculative. I have not the slightest clue what the TRUTH might be. I just make the guess that makes me the happiest and go with that.

As to what you "know", I saw not one iota of evidence to support that claim. Let me know when you have some.

You are correct.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

 

[sealybobo]

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

Yes, that is the belief I have heard so many times. One might even call it dogma. I think I will instead go with an unsupported belief system is an unsupported belief system. If it makes you feel better to say your unsupported belief system is somehow less unsupported because you insist it is not a religion, who am I to take that away from you.

And when you have one shred of evidence there is a god come back to me please I would love to meet him.

Why there is no god

 

[PratchettFan]

As a rational, reasoned and logical person, I know the bible is a lie. In fact 7 out of 10 christians admit they don't take the bible literally. So if the adam and eve STORIES are just stories, what else is? Is Jesus just a story too? I think it is. Unless you can prove to me miracles happen. You can't scientifically. First hand accounts are not reliable either by the way. Ever see a magic trick and not know how they did it?

So IF there was a god, do you think he would reward ignorance? That's what you are if you swallow the jesus, mohammad or jewish stories. Or do you think this vein jealous mean god really NEEDS us to believe in him?

I was watching a jesus show last night and they kept saying that god wants us to believe even without proof. Of course he does. That's exactly what I would say if I started a cult. The god can't come out to play guys, sorry. He said talk to him through me, your Messiah.

And believe or burn in hell??? Really?

Sorry I can't prove your god isn't real but for an extraordinary claim such as god don't you think it is you who has to prove such an outrageous claim? Do I have to prove an invisible mermaid isn't blowing you right now too? Unfalseafiable.

P.S. If there is a god, he made us atheists smart to stop this religion nonsense.

Oh, and why is it that you poor theists don't have to use logic and reason? Forget about our speculation. Don't you agree you too are speculating? No. You guys believe Jesus was a god. Stupid shits. Wake the fuck up please. You are holding us back. You guys are worrying about gay butt sex meanwhile the ocean is filling up with plastic.

I am not a Christian. Not even a little bit. But I will certainly own up to my belief system to be entirely speculative. I have not the slightest clue what the TRUTH might be. I just make the guess that makes me the happiest and go with that.

As to what you "know", I saw not one iota of evidence to support that claim. Let me know when you have some.

You are correct.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.

In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.

Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.

 

[PratchettFan]

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

Yes, that is the belief I have heard so many times. One might even call it dogma. I think I will instead go with an unsupported belief system is an unsupported belief system. If it makes you feel better to say your unsupported belief system is somehow less unsupported because you insist it is not a religion, who am I to take that away from you.

And when you have one shred of evidence there is a god come back to me please I would love to meet him.

Why there is no god

I don't. Not the tiniest shred. None whatsoever. I am utterly ignorant on the subject. However, I am not the one professing to know. And if you consider that site as any kind of evidence, so much for the claim you have no holy texts.

 

[koshergrl]

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

Yes, that is the belief I have heard so many times. One might even call it dogma. I think I will instead go with an unsupported belief system is an unsupported belief system. If it makes you feel better to say your unsupported belief system is somehow less unsupported because you insist it is not a religion, who am I to take that away from you.

And when you have one shred of evidence there is a god come back to me please I would love to meet him.

Why there is no god

Don't worry, boob. You will meet him.

 

[emilynghiem]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

One cannot not believe in something that doesn't exist to begin with.

????

[MENTION=29614]C_Clayton_Jones[/MENTION]

Do you mean exist in your mind?

If someone believes the "sun revolves around the earth,"
or the "earth is flat," you mean the earth has to exist to have beliefs about it?

I actually agree, in a way, the issue is not whether people believe in Jesus or God,
but WHAT we believe about their "meanings" that determines true or false, right or wrong.

If people believe in a VENGEFUL God/Jesus the problem is believing in retribution as something we can decide as judge/jury/executioner.

Is this what you mean? You can't have a belief ABOUT something if it doesn't represent a CONCEPT in your mind? I believe Jesus represents Justice, so this could explain that. Thanks CCJ!

 

[sealybobo]

I am not a Christian. Not even a little bit. But I will certainly own up to my belief system to be entirely speculative. I have not the slightest clue what the TRUTH might be. I just make the guess that makes me the happiest and go with that.

As to what you "know", I saw not one iota of evidence to support that claim. Let me know when you have some.

You are correct.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.

In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.

Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.

You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.

No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - Carl Sagan

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

One cannot not believe in something that doesn't exist to begin with.

????

[MENTION=29614]C_Clayton_Jones[/MENTION]

Do you mean exist in your mind?

If someone believes the "sun revolves around the earth,"
or the "earth is flat," you mean the earth has to exist to have beliefs about it?

I actually agree, in a way, the issue is not whether people believe in Jesus or God,
but WHAT we believe about their "meanings" that determines true or false, right or wrong.

If people believe in a VENGEFUL God/Jesus the problem is believing in retribution as something we can decide as judge/jury/executioner.

Is this what you mean? You can't have a belief ABOUT something if it doesn't represent a CONCEPT in your mind? I believe Jesus represents Justice, so this could explain that. Thanks CCJ!

Lets start over. Hit the reset button. If when they say god they mean right and wrong then I guess I'm willing to accept god if we redefine what god means.

But I think most of us, for example, don't think abortion is murder but you guys do. So we have laws for that. Also, your "right and wrong" says gays can't be who they are. We disagree, so our LAWS say god is wrong on that one too. So can we throw that one out? Is the god side willing to let it go and not think abortion is murder or gay sex is a sin? I don't think they can, so we have this division.

And what other things does god say is wrong that law disagrees with? Euthinasia or doctor assisted suicide to end someone's suffering?

And you guys got to let go of this hell thing. Re god damn diculous bullshit. We don't need a lie to scare us into doing right. A lie is a lie no matter how good intended. It is insulting you think we need a god watching us jack off.

Oh yea, can I jack off or fuck before marriage? If your god says no, we have laws that say we can and so again, we reject your god and his laws or the threats you make if we break your imaginary gods laws. If you want to live that way, don't have an abortion or gay butt sex but let us do what we want as long as it doesn't hurt you freaks.

I know it's not right to screw a guys wife but she's the one who did something wrong. She is the one who will pay in the courts when they divorce. The law will take care of her. As for me, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't go before the courts or the church and say till death do we part so help me god. Your hoe wives did that. So she can go to hell and be punished by the courts. Keep your wives in check. Maybe you should start putting burka's over their heads.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes, that is the belief I have heard so many times. One might even call it dogma. I think I will instead go with an unsupported belief system is an unsupported belief system. If it makes you feel better to say your unsupported belief system is somehow less unsupported because you insist it is not a religion, who am I to take that away from you.

And when you have one shred of evidence there is a god come back to me please I would love to meet him.

Why there is no god

Don't worry, boob. You will meet him.

So you admit you have no argument or proof and have to resort to what we do to children, threaten if they don't believe in santa he won't come. Are you that stupid still? Basically anyone who believes is a little unevolved still. Missing a chromazone or something.

 

[PratchettFan]

You are correct.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.

In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.

Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.

You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.

No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - Carl Sagan

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Everything you just wrote is unsupported opinion. It means nothing and carries no weight. It is nothing more than belief with a different colored wrapper. I am especially unimpressed with Sagan's quote. What does "extraordinary" mean? Who gets to decide where the line is on that? It is merely a justification for belief, not the foundation of a rational conclusion. There are only claims and evidence. Extraneous adjectives are flowery but pointless.

Provide me with a definition of god supported by factual evidence, then we can begin. Until then, any opinion has no greater worth than any other. Saying your opinion is superior is pretty much what all religions do. But sans evidence, it is just one more expression of faith.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm not sure how boob sees me telling him that he will meet God as a threat.

Methinks he's paranoid.

And..boob...it's chromosome. If you're going to pretend you're smart, at least spell the key words correctly....

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why do people have to believe in anything?

 

[PratchettFan]

You are correct.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

I would respond that positing there is no god is equally admitting personal ignorance. In the absence of evidence any conclusion is irrational. A negative conclusion is no less irrational than a positive one. Your claim that the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief. It is based upon nothing other than personal preference.

In fact, I would go further that you seem to have a clear idea of what god is to start with, and it seems to be Christian. There is nothing to conclude the Christian concept of god is the correct one, or even if there is any concept to have at all. You are arriving at conclusions on a subject for which you have neither data nor a definition by which to start looking for data.

Tell me again how atheism is not a religion.

You had me until you said the existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes is a completely unfounded statement of pure, irrational belief.

No it is not. I guess when you strip away all the god talked to mosus or sent jesus or talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, what do you have? Why do you believe there is a god?

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - Carl Sagan

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. So we even know what part of your brain believes in god. The primitive part.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

BTW, you asked me the question so I should give you an answer. Why do I believe in God? I think it likely that I don't, at least your idea of God that I glean from your posts. You seem to be very Christian centered and I am not a Christian.

I believe in God because it feels right to me. I do not expect you to share in that belief, nor care if you do. In the absence of any evidence, I go with my feelings because I want to. I fully admit that is entirely irrational, but what are you going to do?