If you don't believe in God...

[Mac1958]

.

I've looked at Christianity, religion in general, and the Big Bang Theory, and I find all of them intellectually unsatisfying.

So I'm not afraid to admit that I have absolutely no idea how the hell we got here.

Just as in politics, we are not required to pick a team and run with it no matter what.

.

 

[alang1216]

Faith in Jesus Christ is not evolutionary. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. It is written: God changes not. The Word of God is a sure foundation.

I think you're completely wrong here. Faith in Jesus did evolve from the diverse early churches to the time of Constantine and the creation of orthodoxy.

We can see the evolution of Jesus in the Scripture/Gospels from the earliest letters of Paul to the later work of John. Paul was instrumental in changing Christianity from a Jewish sect into a world religion.

Even the Word of God evolved as societies evolved, it went from the religion of the nation of Israelites to the personal religion we now see.

 

[Slyhunter]

believe = what happens happens. I hope this life isn't going to be wasted and that there is an afterlife I will appreciate but there is no guarantee. Perhaps our mortal forms give birth to our spiritual forms and we move on to the next level when our physical bodies die? Perhaps not.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

"Belief" requires a kind of blind faith that I am just not capable of and that is something that I for one am rather proud of. I either know something or I don't. I can either prove something or I can't. Belief doesn't factor anywhere in there. The truth is the truth whether you believe it or not. Two plus two will always equal four and nobody has every had to convince themselves of that. If your belief was the truth then why would it be so hard to keep even yourselves convinced? Why the need to desensitize yourselves to doubts by saying that it's just the devil putting those doubts in your head? Why the constant victim complex? If what you believe is true and the end all be all truth of existence then why is it so hard to believe?

 

[PratchettFan]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

"Belief" requires a kind of blind faith that I am just not capable of and that is something that I for one am rather proud of. I either know something or I don't. I can either prove something or I can't. Belief doesn't factor anywhere in there. The truth is the truth whether you believe it or not. Two plus two will always equal four and nobody has every had to convince themselves of that. If your belief was the truth then why would it be so hard to keep even yourselves convinced? Why the need to desensitize yourselves to doubts by saying that it's just the devil putting those doubts in your head? Why the constant victim complex? If what you believe is true and the end all be all truth of existence then why is it so hard to believe?

Belief is a human condition. As an example, your statement above is chock full of beliefs. The biggest one is your belief that you are not capable of belief. That takes a serious level of faith.

 

[strollingbones]

shouldnt the title be...if you do not believe in 'my' god?

 

[GWV5903]

In order:
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Almost all choices in life do not fall into categories of right and wrong. Most of them are wrong and more wrong. It is never a question of staying clean. It is how much dirt you can avoid.

So you don't believe in good vs. evil?

I disagree, very few choices do not fall into those category's...

Do you have an example?

No, I do not believe in good vs evil. This is always a matter of perspective - unless we are dealing with a sociopath. There are very few sociopaths.

If you pay taxes, you are supporting any number of activities. Now let us say we are engaged in a military action to which you are vehemently opposed. You consider it an immoral action. On the other hand, your taxes also go to food for starving children. If you refuse to pay taxes, you are only adding to that starvation. If you do pay them, you are supporting the war. So no matter what action you take, you are doing something you consider to be wrong.

To my point on good vs evil. Are you aware the term "terrorism" actually comes from WWII from Gen Curtis Lemay to describe our bombing policy in Europe? We intentionally bombed civilian populations in order to terrorize them into submission. We did this knowing those populations were primarily the very young and the very old. Would you call that good? Was the alternative good?

We will not agree on this, I think you're avoiding the obvious when it comes to good vs. evil, maybe someday you will figure this out...

Paying taxes has nothing to do with the decision a bureaucrat makes in DC in regards to me. That decision is theirs and no one else, I voted for who I believe should make it and that is as far as it goes...

With your analogy if I paid for groceries and the sacker stole from the store it's my fault, does that make sense to you? Everyone makes decision's based on what they see as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

The sociopath is not the only person who lies and steals, or is antisocial. Is the husband who cheats lacking morals? Yes, but that doesn't make him a sociopath...

I use to struggle with tithing, I couldn't justify it because of the car they drove or the home they lived in. Finally I realized it wasn't about them, it was about me giving, I didn't have to answer for their decisions, only mine...

The truth is clear, you just have to want to find it...

 

[AtheistBuddah]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

"Belief" requires a kind of blind faith that I am just not capable of and that is something that I for one am rather proud of. I either know something or I don't. I can either prove something or I can't. Belief doesn't factor anywhere in there. The truth is the truth whether you believe it or not. Two plus two will always equal four and nobody has every had to convince themselves of that. If your belief was the truth then why would it be so hard to keep even yourselves convinced? Why the need to desensitize yourselves to doubts by saying that it's just the devil putting those doubts in your head? Why the constant victim complex? If what you believe is true and the end all be all truth of existence then why is it so hard to believe?

Belief is a human condition. As an example, your statement above is chock full of beliefs. The biggest one is your belief that you are not capable of belief. That takes a serious level of faith.

Semantics? That's all you got? You're gonna have to do a lot better than that lol

 

[sealybobo]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Have you been reading the responses? I am so proud to see people with common sense responding to you rather than Boss or gismys. It is time we as a people take a huge fucking leap forward in the evolutionary/intelligence department and that means shedding ourselves of all the made up bullshit religions. Utterly insane. Maybe an atheist/intelligent society will do better? At least it will be one less wedge issue for the rich to divide us with. No more worrying about gays, denying global warming, fighting wars, fighting stem cell or worrying if someone terminates a seed in their womb. A scientists/atheist doesn't give a shit if you butt fuck guys or abort your babies. We will raise our children to be successful and kind and omg when I think about all the little christian fucking bullies on all the playgrounds in America.

I believe that religion is holding us back. I would say people are stupid but as scientists we understand why people believe. It comes from the most primitive part of the brain. It was good for early man to have a healthy fear of the unknown. We know this now. And now we even know the Adam and Eve stories aren't real. What more do you need to know? I believe you are seeking the truth and now have found it. And we aren't calling you dumb.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

 

[BreezeWood]

admission to the Everlasting before a persons physiology expires is a worthy goal, finding an Almighty on the other side would not be a surprise.

.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Have you been reading the responses? I am so proud to see people with common sense responding to you rather than Boss or gismys. It is time we as a people take a huge fucking leap forward in the evolutionary/intelligence department and that means shedding ourselves of all the made up bullshit religions. Utterly insane. Maybe an atheist/intelligent society will do better? At least it will be one less wedge issue for the rich to divide us with. No more worrying about gays, denying global warming, fighting wars, fighting stem cell or worrying if someone terminates a seed in their womb. A scientists/atheist doesn't give a shit if you butt fuck guys or abort your babies. We will raise our children to be successful and kind and omg when I think about all the little christian fucking bullies on all the playgrounds in America.

I believe that religion is holding us back. I would say people are stupid but as scientists we understand why people believe. It comes from the most primitive part of the brain. It was good for early man to have a healthy fear of the unknown. We know this now. And now we even know the Adam and Eve stories aren't real. What more do you need to know? I believe you are seeking the truth and now have found it. And we aren't calling you dumb.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

Truth

 

[sealybobo]

admission to the Everlasting before a persons physiology expires is a worthy goal, finding an Almighty on the other side would not be a surprise.

.

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

admission to the Everlasting before a persons physiology expires is a worthy goal, finding an Almighty on the other side would not be a surprise.

.

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

 

[Wry Catcher]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Money. It's my money isn't it? Ronnie the GOP Messiah said so, didn't he?

I'm only kidding, I believe in Life, Love and Laughter (clearly I'm not a member of the former GOP).

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

That is a simplistic view of religion and it ignores the obvious. My point to C Clayton was that people do believe and to ignore that reality makes no sense. So my response to you is much the same, religion does exist and to ignore that reality makes no sense.

Taken purely from biological perspective, whenever you find a behavior within a species the assumption must be that it is a benefit to that species. Otherwise, the behavior would not have survived. Religion and government are two behaviors you find in all human societies - at least those above a small clan and even there it will be around in most cases. So the logical assumption is that religion provides a benefit to that society.

IMO, religion is simply another aspect of government. It is a way for the group to identify with each other and provide cohesiveness. Government is a temporary thing, because it is run by human beings who die. Religion, otoh, is theoretically run by immortal being(s). Therefore, it provides stability to government.

And yes, I know a lot of people have been killed in the name of religion. A lot have been killed in the name of government. A lot of people have been killed to see whose butt will sit on a throne, as if that truly matters to most of the people in the society who will never get a glimpse of that butt. People don't kill because of religion or government. They kill because we are our own predator.

I agree partially, seeing religion as a kind of evolutionary advantage, building up group cohesion. But the foundation of that is ignorance, which is understandable considering the level of knowledge at certain times.
Only thing is, todays level of knowledge is in general totally contradicting any kind of religion. So what we miss, and what religikons desperatly try to fill whilst losing ground, is another glue for society.
There are, of course, attempts of non religious power hungry manipulators, as there is communism, ecology and a lot of other -isms to install other top to bottom society frames.
But none of them is rational, as it should be for an enlightened humynity.
That's what is troubling me.

Faith in Jesus Christ is not evolutionary. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. It is written: God changes not. The Word of God is a sure foundation. All else is sinking sand. Satan is a defeated foe. When Jesus Christ said, It is finished? He meant, It IS finished.

It is written by men, men who invented religion, god, and Jesus.

 

[PratchettFan]

So you don't believe in good vs. evil?

I disagree, very few choices do not fall into those category's...

Do you have an example?

No, I do not believe in good vs evil. This is always a matter of perspective - unless we are dealing with a sociopath. There are very few sociopaths.

If you pay taxes, you are supporting any number of activities. Now let us say we are engaged in a military action to which you are vehemently opposed. You consider it an immoral action. On the other hand, your taxes also go to food for starving children. If you refuse to pay taxes, you are only adding to that starvation. If you do pay them, you are supporting the war. So no matter what action you take, you are doing something you consider to be wrong.

To my point on good vs evil. Are you aware the term "terrorism" actually comes from WWII from Gen Curtis Lemay to describe our bombing policy in Europe? We intentionally bombed civilian populations in order to terrorize them into submission. We did this knowing those populations were primarily the very young and the very old. Would you call that good? Was the alternative good?

We will not agree on this, I think you're avoiding the obvious when it comes to good vs. evil, maybe someday you will figure this out...

Paying taxes has nothing to do with the decision a bureaucrat makes in DC in regards to me. That decision is theirs and no one else, I voted for who I believe should make it and that is as far as it goes...

With your analogy if I paid for groceries and the sacker stole from the store it's my fault, does that make sense to you? Everyone makes decision's based on what they see as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

The sociopath is not the only person who lies and steals, or is antisocial. Is the husband who cheats lacking morals? Yes, but that doesn't make him a sociopath...

I use to struggle with tithing, I couldn't justify it because of the car they drove or the home they lived in. Finally I realized it wasn't about them, it was about me giving, I didn't have to answer for their decisions, only mine...

The truth is clear, you just have to want to find it...

It's ok if we disagree. However, I'm not sure we do.

You say that everyone makes decisions based upon what they see as right vs wrong. But that is all about perspective. You and I might well see the exact same situation, from our own perspective, with me seeing option A as right and you seeing it as wrong. When I say there is no right vs wrong, I am talking about the concept of an absolute.

Is it wrong to intentionally kill a child? Most would say yes, but what if you are a bombardier flying over a city in a war. You are most certainly about to kill any number of children. Is it still wrong? From the perspective of the parent holding one of those children below, is it right?

Most decisions in life are mundane. They aren't about Right vs Wrong, they are about convenience vs inconvenience. When we are faced with true moral decisions, it is never about absolutes.

 

[PratchettFan]

"Belief" requires a kind of blind faith that I am just not capable of and that is something that I for one am rather proud of. I either know something or I don't. I can either prove something or I can't. Belief doesn't factor anywhere in there. The truth is the truth whether you believe it or not. Two plus two will always equal four and nobody has every had to convince themselves of that. If your belief was the truth then why would it be so hard to keep even yourselves convinced? Why the need to desensitize yourselves to doubts by saying that it's just the devil putting those doubts in your head? Why the constant victim complex? If what you believe is true and the end all be all truth of existence then why is it so hard to believe?

Belief is a human condition. As an example, your statement above is chock full of beliefs. The biggest one is your belief that you are not capable of belief. That takes a serious level of faith.

Semantics? That's all you got? You're gonna have to do a lot better than that lol

Semantics? Wow, you really are blinded by belief. You have defined yourself in a particular way and believe that makes you that way, and you say I am using semantics?

You talk about desensitizing, so let's start there. Exactly who are you talking about, and what system of data collection did you use to arrive at the conclusion there is any desensitizing going on? Let us see what you mean when you talk about proof.

 

[PratchettFan]

So you don't believe in good vs. evil?

I disagree, very few choices do not fall into those category's...

Do you have an example?

No, I do not believe in good vs evil. This is always a matter of perspective - unless we are dealing with a sociopath. There are very few sociopaths.

If you pay taxes, you are supporting any number of activities. Now let us say we are engaged in a military action to which you are vehemently opposed. You consider it an immoral action. On the other hand, your taxes also go to food for starving children. If you refuse to pay taxes, you are only adding to that starvation. If you do pay them, you are supporting the war. So no matter what action you take, you are doing something you consider to be wrong.

To my point on good vs evil. Are you aware the term "terrorism" actually comes from WWII from Gen Curtis Lemay to describe our bombing policy in Europe? We intentionally bombed civilian populations in order to terrorize them into submission. We did this knowing those populations were primarily the very young and the very old. Would you call that good? Was the alternative good?

We will not agree on this, I think you're avoiding the obvious when it comes to good vs. evil, maybe someday you will figure this out...

Paying taxes has nothing to do with the decision a bureaucrat makes in DC in regards to me. That decision is theirs and no one else, I voted for who I believe should make it and that is as far as it goes...

With your analogy if I paid for groceries and the sacker stole from the store it's my fault, does that make sense to you? Everyone makes decision's based on what they see as right vs. wrong, good vs. evil...

The sociopath is not the only person who lies and steals, or is antisocial. Is the husband who cheats lacking morals? Yes, but that doesn't make him a sociopath...

I use to struggle with tithing, I couldn't justify it because of the car they drove or the home they lived in. Finally I realized it wasn't about them, it was about me giving, I didn't have to answer for their decisions, only mine...

The truth is clear, you just have to want to find it...

Just as a side note because I didn't want it to tangle up the real discussion, a sociopath is outside of the concept of right and wrong. They will kill as a matter of convenience or just to add a bit of spice to their life. They aren't faced with a decision between right and wrong because they only see want vs not want.

 

[PratchettFan]

If you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

Have you been reading the responses? I am so proud to see people with common sense responding to you rather than Boss or gismys. It is time we as a people take a huge fucking leap forward in the evolutionary/intelligence department and that means shedding ourselves of all the made up bullshit religions. Utterly insane. Maybe an atheist/intelligent society will do better? At least it will be one less wedge issue for the rich to divide us with. No more worrying about gays, denying global warming, fighting wars, fighting stem cell or worrying if someone terminates a seed in their womb. A scientists/atheist doesn't give a shit if you butt fuck guys or abort your babies. We will raise our children to be successful and kind and omg when I think about all the little christian fucking bullies on all the playgrounds in America.

I believe that religion is holding us back. I would say people are stupid but as scientists we understand why people believe. It comes from the most primitive part of the brain. It was good for early man to have a healthy fear of the unknown. We know this now. And now we even know the Adam and Eve stories aren't real. What more do you need to know? I believe you are seeking the truth and now have found it. And we aren't calling you dumb.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

That is all very nice, but it is no less an irrational belief than thinking sky fairies hold up the wings of airplanes so they won't fall. I keep hearing "Oh.... if only..." but do you have any evidence to support this? Any indication at all that human nature would suddenly change and we would come together in brotherly love if only we stopped believing in X? Because if you don't, then what you are doing is compartmentalizing world-views and models from one another in order to maintain a state of ignorant bliss and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. What you are not doing is deciding based upon evidence and reason.

 

[PratchettFan]

admission to the Everlasting before a persons physiology expires is a worthy goal, finding an Almighty on the other side would not be a surprise.

.

I guess if it makes you feel better. I myself can't convince my intelligent evolved mature thinking educated brain of this ancient lie any longer. I tried. Doesn't make me a bad person. Like I tell gismys a real god would reward intelligence.

More truth

It may seem like harping, but both of you keep talking about how you are rational and reasoning people and this is just another example to show that to be wrong. How do you know what a "real god" would reward? What exactly is a "real god" and what evidence do you have to support that definition?

This is just another religious belief, no different than any other religious belief. AB said "More truth" but what he really meant was "Amen".